sweetface

I'm sure you might get arrogance anywhere you go. RN's work hard at getting to that level and I'm sure resent an LVN with less schooling to be doing the same job. However, if the RN you mentioned above would 'critically think' she would realize the 'process' is not your fault. If hospitals don't allow LVN's to not rely on RN's so much as I've heard that is standard protocol, then LVN's wouldn't be so 'needy'. If process has it that an LVN works under and RN and needs the RN for however many things, of course that would be seen as 'needy'. In order to avoid this, I do plan to get my RN asap. I worked in engineering for far too long to have an RN tell me I don't think critically, but due to the lack of common sense alot of people have in general, I'm sure I'll come across that when I am an LVN working to get my RN. No matter where you go, no matter what profession, there are always rude, arrogant insecure people to work with. Education will give you self esteme and a higher check in the end.

I am about to start nursing school and a good friend of mine said her sister went to LVN school and could only make 9 per hour and decided to quit being an LVN. I told her that hourly rate sounded more like MA or CNA in southern CA but she said it was definately 9.00 as LVN. She is Latino and she said it was probably racial descrimination if 9.00 is too low. I told her I had not seen that anywhere and that in OC LVN's usually start at 17-19 per hour or more. Am I way off base here? Do Hospitals hire LVN's at 9.00 per hour or any rate this low? What's the lowest hourly rate any of you have seen in Orange County for LVN's?

I'm going off what my other RN friends say as well. They feel there is power in white as well. What I think is odd is that the elderly nurses on this thread think there is power in white and some others, but if a student nurse agress she is all of a sudden out of touch, inexperienced or judgemental. I think the reverse is quite possible, that RN's who have loads of experience can be arrogant towards someone with a different opinion. We all have opinions, whether we have an RN or not. No one said 'only those with RN degrees can reply'. I do think there is power in white. Also, subservient is different that providing a service. Subservient is an attitude and providing a service is something else with an entirely different attitude. I've never met a nurse who goes to work thinking their patients serve them. It's the other way around. Medical profession is a public 'service' so I'm not sure where the denial is coming from or that bad attitudes from RN's.

My sister was an Opthamology Tech in Sacramento and really liked it despite her crazy manager. Her friends who were RN's really loved their job but Kaiser is notorious for poor management.

The salary ranges you posted BigB were for RN's right? What about LVN's. Does the state hire LVN's?

And QJ, thanks for allowing me a place in the nursing world. It does take all kinds and I'm pretty rare:) I think feminism is a great thing, but when it comes to emasulating men in spite of feminism, we are out of line. Any woman who is in her power will have a large amount of understanding, tolerance and wisdom. A lack of these indicates anger and angry women lash out at men, innocent men just because they are angry and they call themselves feminist and fight for a cause with a badge of resentment. It's sad, but that is what feminism has turned out to be. Most think they have a higher ideal, but it's really anger. But I am pro-woman and women should make their own decisions. Being able to make my own decisions doesn't mean I can change a man though or how they respond to feminine women or lack of femininity. Ask a man what femininity is...do a poll. See how they describe it. celebratingmen.com has done alot of this research and it's very revealing.

Good enough. It's the scrubs that look unprofessional and sloppy and anything unisex to me is sheman material. Not that the nurse is a sheman herself. Remember Saturday Night Live, Pat? Scrubs remind me of Pat. They are great for OR because it's messy and no ones looking. What I cannot change in men I do accept. If it were a doctor, someone I had to work with, thats a whole other story. Having a patient act out is annoying, but I understand it. Understanding something doesn't mean I am all for it though. I just understand it and if you have that you don't take it personal. Think about it, there are worse things than a man whistling at you because he thinks you look good to him. If we get all ruffled up over that then we are drama queens and should be on stage instead. But if its a doctor, a professional peer, that should never be tolerated. Thanks for letting me know about brushing germs around from the skirt hitting the floor. It never dawned on me.

In my experience, the more spry the man was the more older he got. If there is life kicking in his veins, good. I don't think all men are sexist, but most are - put a bunch of men together in a room regulalry and you will see the chauvenism and sexism come out among the men. That's truely what they feel and believe. Most men MUST be on good behavior around women, it's now expected. But when men are among men, behind closed doors to the eye's of women, you can bet there is sexist comments right and left. When a man is in a sick bed, his defenses and good behavior are down and the real opinion shows thru at times whether that's in flirt mode or mean sexist mode - if he has those beliefs.... it doesn't matter. There are kind hearted men out there too who don't have a sexist bone in their body, but they are rare. My father comes from the hills so he is like alot of macho men but when the men who are not sexist cross my path, I appreicate them too. I just have a good understanding and rarely take it personally.

Your making the article I mentioned my own statements. I think any woman who is making a point to be presentable and clean, fresh is being feminine or aka 'pretty'. They don't have to be Barbie. I've seen some women in all white who are not my idea of pretty, but because they aspire to tradition and wearing skirts, to me that is pretty. There is nothing wrong with dressing up the profession abit. I don't see anything sexist about it. Here's the article: http://www.nursingadvocacy.org/news/2005oct/04_hindustan_times.html This is NOT my article. However, FOR ME, yes feminine attire is skirts. I think it's professional. I definately have my own preferences and I'm ok with them. But I will answer your questions... I think scrubs are best worn in the OR. I think pants are fine as long as they do NOT look like PJ's. I think nurses should be able to wear a color on the bottom but always a white lab coat on top. From my neck of the woods, it's more identifiable. A nurse doesn't have to curl her hair to be feminine, but she does have to care about it. I think a woman can be feminist and feminine. I was. To me, feminist women in general are very angry, upset at the men in the world and always having to defend themselves against a man. It's starting to get to the point where if a woman like myself isn't a feminist and dresses to the T the roll of a woman, that other feminist women are offended, put it down or what have you. Take my sister. She was a Opthamalogy Tech at Kaiser. My sister is like Roseanne Barr, totally abraisive personality and lacking in feminine grace. Any nurse she had to work with who was feminine she called Miss. Priss behind her back or Miss. Beasley if her hair was up in an updoo. She projected all of her own issues onto nurses that were highly professional looking because she was overweight, she was jealous of them and so she put them down. My sister is a feminist, and fights tooth and nail to beat up men for being men and she emasculates them if they don't fit into her narrow idea of what proper behavior is. Even the best of men can turn into Neanderthal Man in a heartbeat when sick. I can't change the nature of men but that doesn't mean I defend it. I accept it and in that I don't take it personal when they 'act out'. I'm not the moral crusader, that is not my place. When people are sick they act out of character and I do allow for that. I can create healthy boundaries, but part of that healthy boundary is to know what NOT to take personal. I'm pretty good natured in general. I'm no longer a feminist in the traditional bra burning word. I'm pro woman and pro-femininity. But angry femininists I really have little tolerance for.

Of course it's sexist. I can't change men and most are in their weakest moment if they are not behaving. And when are sick people at their best? You can google it. I think my search words were, can nurses wear skirts? It was an interesting article, very sexist but it does touch upon fundamental biological pyscholgy of what IS, not how we would LIKE it to be. Now, if a man groped me, goosed me or touched me, that's a whole nother story. A compliment, a whistle - not a problem. QueenJean, I would prefer a nurse who is female to be looking her best and feminine. Whether she is attractive is another thing. Does she try her best to be presentable? This thread isn't about being a good or bad nurse, its about wearing skirts. That article I mention is the initator of 'pretty nurses'. It was a completely sexist article and my chin was dropped most of the time because it would never fly in the US....but it was interesting. I don't think there is anything wrong with being feminine or pretty or how that interferes with doing a good job. For some reason and I am not sure why, it seems many nurses equate femininity or feminine looking clothing with laziness or weakness. Maybe it's more the nurses than the doctors creating this stigma? Do you really think dressing like a unisex sheman makes a doctor treat you better than if you wore a skirt? Here's my main question: Does wearing a skirt as a nurse hinder your ability to do your job? Personally, I squat better in a skirt and have more freedom of movement in a skirt. Pants restrict me as they feel too tight. Skirts are very functional to me and utilitarian. Pants are fine if I am riding my horse - FOR ME that is.

oh i get it ruby, more than you you know. for some reason those who are conservative and like tradition threatens you. my opinion counts as a patient as well as a to-be nurse. my good friends who are rn's don't like white but they don' take it personal or go off like a loaded gun in defense of wearing psychadelics. one thing i am getting from this forum in general, is that nurses back stab eachother, assume petty things without really hearing what a peson is saying and then react in a rather immature way. i sure hope you don't do that with your patients. what color you wear or what color another wears or why it should threaten you, rv. but it sounds like it does. my opinions are my own, but i'm not making you wear white, so give it a rest.

Are you not serving a patient by helping them get better? Are you not helping or serving a doctor by following his orders? I attend hospitals where a good % of the nurses are nun's. They do have an attitude of servitude and their attitudes are impeccible. Being a professional is fine, but your still in the service of another and getting paid highly for it. Doctors are also in servitude. They serve the sick patient. The whole medical staff is in service to sick patients. If you don't follow the doctor or help the patient get better, aren't you written up?

Again, your taking it too personal. If a man is spry enough to whistle that means he's feeling better and should be going home soon. I don't take it personal. I doubt a whistling man would be dying on my shift. Of course I don't have a chip on my shoulder either. If it were a doctor whistling, that would be something else. My father has the nurses stay in the room talking with him because they know he is harmless and he is funny. I've seen it and I've even asked the LVN's if he bothers them and they laugh and say 'Not at all, he's the funny one here, you should hear what the other patients call me.' My mother also respects nurses who are feminine and holds them in higher esteme and old fashioned. My friends who are RN's wear skirts and they seem to be very mature about not taking things too personal.

I can see there were many assumptions made about my post. I was going to be a nun 6 years ago and so I wear A line skirts ONLY. My father loves women looking like women. Actually he makes the nuns at the hospital blush at times. I don't have issues with sexuality but I can see many do here. Just because an article says 'pretty nurse' doesnt mean MediaO NURSE and just because men appreciate a woman looking like a woman doesn't put them in a lower class. When my father flirts with a nurse, it's one in an A line skirt who acts feminine, but not like a bunny. Geesh..... can you now see all of your assumptions? Also, I was just quoting an article I read on the net and y'all thought it was my article. There is alot to be said about presentation of femininity, presentation is looks. Demeanor is also dignity and maturity so this of course makes a woman more feminine if she has these attributes instead of competitive, indignant attitudes.. As for me, I would rather be helped by a feminine looking nurse who was a good nurse than one who wore psychadelic patterns. I'm just a traditionalist and I have very conservative values and appearance. Try to remember Nurses, that just because a man values pretty women doesn't mean we have fallen back 100 years. Caveman is still caveman and they ALL respond to what is pretty, even pretty attitudes.

Even in the most messiest of circumstances a woman can still be feminine even if the job isn't. I just came from 16 years of engineering working with all men and that is NOT feminine. However, we all define feminity in our own way and beleive me, I feel feminine and so then, I dress it. Just because a woman is feminine doesn't mean she is a wimp.... hardly at all and just because she works hard and can stomach it just like the brutes on here doesn't mean she has to dress in unisex clothing to prove it. I'm an odd one, my father taught me to do carpentry work, but I was a ballet dancer too. You can be both tough and beautiful. You nurses are so hard on eachother. I can see all the back biting already. That will probably be the worst of nursing...although my friends who are RN's know me really well and know me as feminine but pretty tough. I love who I am and I will post more of these articles.

I"n not confused at all. And I'm not a feminist either. My father is a hoot and the nurses laugh at him. If you would be insulted by an old man thinking your pretty, you've got issues. Time to see the nut cracker/shrink because your taking it way too personal. I'd rather an old man whistle at me and have his spirits high than to call me foul mouthed names. I've read here that nurses disrespect eachother and I think when nurses take things soooo personal like my thread it show's just why nurses aren't bonding. If a nurse is feminine, the other ones put it down? That's only feminism at work. I'm a woman, I love being one and I love dressing like one. I like the tailored look, not the fru fru, lacy Paris Hilton dress, so please ladies, put your assumptions aside and just read what posters write isntead of taking it to heart that someone just MAY be a sexual person? Well of course, we all are.... and I'm not going to become unisex or dress like a man to avoid the whistles. I could care less if a man whistles at me...I don't have issues with it at all, and right now in my life if a man whistles it's a compliment, nothing more. If compliments make your skin crawl thats your own issue and it has nothing to do with competancy - but maybe jealousy.

I'm only surprised because of what www.payscale.com has and the nursing students in Socal say it's about $20 per hour down here average. That's good to know it's higher. How do nurses work on contract? Is it thru an agency?

Personally, I love Clorox so white is the perfect color and clorox for getting the stains out. Imagine trying to get stains out of red or another bright color? White is totally useful for this profession. I have alot of white in my house for the very same reason - Clorox takes stains out without messing up color. I disagree about abnormal colored hair, tattoos and so forth. If that makes the patient leary, as it would me, it would not help the patient get better. The patients emotional state has a great deal to do with recovery. I would NEVER want an RN with tattoos showing, peircings showing unless it's 1 earing per ear only, or funny hair helping me. I would loose my faith in the hospital for hiring them. Call me conservative..... I remember a time when displaying my independant thinking and lack of conforming was cool. But you have to grow up eventually and let go of rebelliousness. Lack of conforming and rebelliousness does not suit the medical profession well. I'm not saying a nurse should wear ALL white, but a jacket, consultation coat in white is proper.

I've only read a few pages of this thread, but white is very powerful as a patient. I am just starting nursing school and I do have enough experience to know white has power... Why? Because I've been a patient. If I have been in distress and in need, I wasn't looking for "Jane Doe RN" on her jacket, I was looking for someone in white. White does have power. When it comes to men in white, I remember getting allergy shots as a kid and the male nurses wore white pants and shirts. When I think of men in white, it's certainly not One Flew Over the Cookoos Nest or the Ice Cream Man. I don't take it personal at all that white is subservient or whatever else I have read here. Our job as nurses, from what I can see, is that we are there for the patients, not ourselves. We are in servitude, period. If wearing white gives the patients more security, then so be it. When I see nurses wearing psychadelic scrub tops, it reminds me of pajamas and it's not professional, but it seems to be hip these days. Mind you all, I'm 36 and used to be a hippie girl, doing yoga 8 hours a day. I love the 'be free' movement and womens choices, but white does give respect and power. It doesn't take long to know which RN knows her stuff and which one doesn't... but wearing white still gives respect, in my neck of the woods anyway..

I'm so glad to see this thread. I love skirts. I have this big issue with being feminine and I know when my father is in the hospital he whistles at the nurses who look feminine. I just read an article on some hospitals changing dress code for women to wear dresses or skirts so that it makes the patients happy. Patients consider dresses or skirts more professional and more 'Florence Nightengale - like'. They say it raises the mood of the patients to see 'pretty nurses'. I have to say, I'll feel much better in a skirt that pants any day. I start LVN school soon and I wish they would let me wear a skirt, but they won't. They said I had to get used to scrubs even though my friends who are nurses wear skirts all the time at large hospitals. The Dir of nursing said that I would be bending over....well, to me bending over in a skirt is much better than pants. I don't wear pants - not even hiking....

What is a BON?

I spoke to the teacher at the local community college today in Orange County and she said no one is hiring LVN's these days, especially not in hospitals. She said the LVN's we see at hospitals are students, not employee's. Are any LVN's working in hospitals? Also, for the LVN's in southern CA, especially Orange County, what did you make your first year? If the shifts are 12 hour shifts, then we are paid 8 straight hours and 4 hours of OT. 3 days on equals 36 hours. Do they allow overtime on the 4th day? If we want OT can you get it easily to make more money? Also, is the shift differential standard everywhere you go? Sorry for all the questions.... Just trying to figure out how I will pay for my vocational college loan...

This is the exact reason I just registered on this forum. I'm in the same shoes and I was thinking due to the nursing shortage, there would be REAL help out there for nursing students, but instead I see these vocational colleges ripping people off. CNI is 28K, CC is 3K and ROP is 2K. I spent time in telecom for 16 years and it's not the industry it used to be. Due to a merger, I was laid off. I am now looking into the vocational route and I'm not stranger to debt, but 28K is ALOT. I am NOT MARRIED..(would like to be though - it makes going to school easier.) I have some debt already and I pay for my own roof over my head. I have a car payment that's not too bad, but here's the kicker. This is where I'm trying hard to find out "Where's the real help during a nursing shortage?" Once an LVN, I will have to enter a bridge LVN-RN program for 18 months. This is a full time course. I called the Community College here in Orange County and they said LVN's who come from Vocational Colleges don't do well at CC Bridging programs because it's harder than they are used to. So in order for me to start paying on the student loan for the LVN program, I MUSt work to pay that back. Either I will have to wait to enter the bridging program for 4 years while I pay the Vocational college their loan back (this vocational college has their own loan program) or I will have to work full time in the LVN-RN program AND work full time as an LVN. My question is, where is the real help? Many adults are not married like myself. There is no second income. I can't live with my parents, already asked. Literally, for the adult who is single, there isn't much help for this 'nursing shortage' they talk about. Is it possible to pass a bridging program working full time as well? Also, ROP, that's a great way to go if you are not relying on EDD. They have a really weird point system though. I only get 1 year of EDD/unemployment benefits for rehabilitation and career transition, so ROP won't be approved by them. Any ideas? Anyone else out there living on their own doing this with no cusion?