jackstem-i need your help!

[mona1023]

You have commented several times in all your posts about the importance of nurses having legal representation when dealing with their state's BON and Attorney General's office. You wrote that you attended the BON meeting in Indiana yesterday and that there was a "huge" difference in the way nurses were treated when they had attorneys. Without divulging anyone's confidentiality, can you be more specific? I am an ISNAP participant and have been told by ISNAP staff AND the therapist who facilitates my nurses support group that obtaining legal representation is the WORST thing anyone can do, that it really "angers the Board and makes them feel you are not serious about recovery, that you just want to avoid consequences of your addiction". I must admit that it is comments like these that help solidify the feelings of worthlessness and shame. I mean, even Ted Bundy was allowed/encouraged legal counsel, but not nurses right?

Anyway, my point is this: can an attorney really help a nurse's license not be "tagged" or put on probation? I am not trying to sound cynical, but I don't want to spend the money on an attorney if the outcome is basically the same.

I would like to talk with you about the specifics of my situation. Can you send me a private message or another way I can conatct you please.

PS: I read the Indiana Board Meeting Agenda- I am curious to see what was decided about the suboxone issue also.

Thanks!

[jackstem]

There was no decision rendered regarding suboxone. Based on the discussion yesterday it appears a decision could be forthcoming sometime this year (but then again, government agencies aren't well known for their speed in addressing some issues). ISNAP is currently an abstinence based program for the actively practicing nurse. This is a quote from the ISNAP web site:

How is abstinence defined for the nurse in a recovery monitoring agreement with the Indiana State Nurses Assistance Program?

The definition of abstinence, which the ISBN has determined and communicated to ISNAP, is that nurses who sign an RMA shall not use any mood-altering substances. Mood altering substances include alcohol in any form, Schedule I substances and Schedule II-V prescription drugs. Also, certain other prescription medications not contained in the Schedule of USDA Controlled Substances may also be banned.

As far as having an attorney represent you causing "problems" with the board or the alternative to discipline monitoring program, consider this; the actions of a licensing agency are determined by the laws and procedures spelled out by the nurse practice act and the administrative procedures in the states legal codes. This means they have to follow the rules just like you do. If you represent yourself (which is exactly what you're doing if you don't have an attorney), you might not know when a proposed agreement is excessive or not. Also, we have a tendency to assume the board isn't going to make a mistake. They're not attorneys either, so they can make mistakes. If they do, it might be YOU who pays the price for that mistake. Having an attorney who is looking out for your rights and best interests can make a significant difference in the type of outcome you end up with.

Finally, the board of nursing has attorneys advising them on how to deal with a violation of the nurse practice act. Shouldn't you have the same assistance? (This is one big reason every nurse should have their own professional Liability Insurance...not just their employer's insurance. With the right coverage your legal fees will be covered).

Of course the board would prefer that you not have legal representation. If you have an attorney, they know they will have their actions scrutinized and challenged if the attorney catches a mistake. They also know that the nurse won't be spilling their guts when an investigator interviews them. Having an attorney present during all investigative meetings (i.e. interrogations) will keep you from providing too much information. It also helps keep interactions between nurse and investigators/police/board members much more civil. Investigative interviews (again, interrogations) can become quite emotional (and ugly). Your attorney knows when to object to a question or line of questioning that isn't pertinent to the case at hand. They can keep you from doing what I saw nurses doing yesterday...saying WAY too much, digging the hole they were in even deeper. Not having an attorney puts you at a huge disadvantage.

If you're already in an alternative program and/or already have an agreement with a board, it's possible that an attorney might not be able to help change things significantly (if at all). But you won't know that without consulting with an attorney.

There are 2 basic ways for "using" an attorney; consultation or representation.

In a consultation you are paying for an attorney to look at the facts of your case and then to offer you the various options you may have for dealing with that situation. They essentially give advice during the specified period determined by the fee your consultation covers (such as $300 for an hour).

If you retain the attorney, they will be available to advise and counsel you until your case is closed. They will accompany you to interviews/depositions, and hearings. All communication with the board and board representatives or any other officials will go through your attorney. They will advise you when to respond and how to respond. Their job is to be sure your rights aren't violated and to help you get the best possible outcome.

Remember, attorneys can also make mistakes. So if you are considering an attorney, do your homework. Interview several attorneys. Contact your state nurses association for recommendations of attorneys. Contact other nurses who have had representation. Ask the attorney if they have a clients willing to talk with you regarding their experience. Also, be sure the attorney has experience facing the board of nursing and is an administrative law specialist (contact the American Association of Nurse Attorneys or the bar association in your state for names).

There are many folks who will disagree with what I've said. That's OK. I'm just sharing my experiences over the past 6 or 7 years. The bottom line is we all are responsible for the decisions we make. I want as much advice from the experts as I can get when it comes to my health and my career (and finances, etc.). I might be willing to "do it myself" when it comes to working on my car or my house. But if the decisions I make could have serious outcomes on my career, I'm not sure that's an area I want to "do it myself".

Jack

[Roller]

Hi Jack,

I was released from a consent agreement after complying with the OBN for 18 months in Jan 2010.

I'm working with a company as a nurse traveler and I like it well enough. Anyhow, my recruiter has been telling me about job needs in Wisconsin. I want to apply for a temporary 90 day license; however, it's required to submit the disciplinary actions against me in OH. Is there any advice on HOW to or HOW much I should submit w/o too much of a "warlock hunt" in my case to satisfy them.

If this question needs to be addressed via a consultation, no problem it would be worth it to me.

[phone]

[jackstem]

Hi Jack,

I was released from a consent agreement after complying with the OBN for 18 months in Jan 2010.

I'm working with a company as a nurse traveler and I like it well enough. Anyhow, my recruiter has been telling me about job needs in Wisconsin. I want to apply for a temporary 90 day license; however, it's required to submit the disciplinary actions against me in OH. Is there any advice on HOW to or HOW much I should submit w/o too much of a "warlock hunt" in my case to satisfy them.

Roller,

The consult should be with a license defense/administrative lawyer in Minnesota. They will know how to answer those questions. This is the thing many folks don't get when it comes to this kind of stuff...what happens with one BON is going to affect any and all licenses you may have or intend to have. The best way to avoid problems is to consult with an attorney.

Go to the American Association of Nurse Attorneys, go to the referral page, and the only thing you need to click is the state where you want to search. It will list every nurse attorney in their organization. If you pick a specific city, it might return no names. The good thing is, your license defense attorney doesn't have to be in the same city. A criminal defense attorney...might be better to have one near you, but not necessary for the license defense.

Good luck!

Jack

[traumaRUs, MSN, APRN]

Better to pick a license defense attorney in the city where hearings are held in your state.

[jackstem]

Better to pick a license defense attorney in the city where hearings are held in your state.

I know that seems to be logical, however, the nurse attorney I consult with is 100-120 miles away from Columbus, Indianapolis, and Louisville. She's one of the best attorneys in all three states. She has great relationships with board members, investigators, and alternative programs in all three states.

I have seen it make a difference in criminal defense cases. When we had a couple of clients facing criminal charges as well as the actions against their license, we retained a local criminal defense attorney. They knew the judges, court staff, and other attorneys which made a big difference.

Jack

[reinka]

I too need help. I have been involved with the VRP in Pennsylvania for 3 years. I was supposed to be finished in September. My dog takes phenobarbital for seizures and after working 11 out of 12 days I got up at 4:30am to give it to her at her prescribed time and accidently took it myself because I was so exhausted and not completely awake. I immediately disclosed this to the board, I was terminated from my job of 11years and now the board is threatening me to turn me over to the disciplinary board. I don't want my license to be tagged for the rest of my life. Do I have a case?

[jackstem]

I too need help. I have been involved with the VRP in Pennsylvania for 3 years. I was supposed to be finished in September. My dog takes phenobarbital for seizures and after working 11 out of 12 days I got up at 4:30am to give it to her at her prescribed time and accidently took it myself because I was so exhausted and not completely awake. I immediately disclosed this to the board, I was terminated from my job of 11years and now the board is threatening me to turn me over to the disciplinary board. I don't want my license to be tagged for the rest of my life. Do I have a case?

The only way to know if you have a case is to consult with a license defense attorney with experience representing nurses before the board of nursing in Pennsylvania. Contact the American Association of Nurse Attorneys for names and contact information on PA. You can also contact the PA bar association (for an administrative law attorney experienced in nursing license defense), the PA Nurses Association, and/or Google "Nursing License Defense Attorney Pennsylvania".

I know it costs money to seek a legal consult or representation. But paying $$ for a professional service which may help you to continue to provide your professional service is money well spent.

Good luck and let us know what happens!

Jack