Tim1957

I am fifty-two years old and I am currently in my second semester of my local ADN program. Before pursuing this, I never even once worked in the medical field. No, you are never too old.

No you do not know that for a fact. There is a very large list of top level students just waiting to get in. And some of them are very close friends. Did you happen to miss the posting of the Bee article? This issue is not going away. You mention overcoming hardships, well there Focker, it is very easy to overcome when the muckered down standards require you to only jump two inches. As for your your personal insult in the last paragraph, I will contribute that to your youth and your tendacy towards rashness. You have much to learn young one.

this made front page local in the sunday edition of our local paper today. the modesto junior college nursing school students decry planned lottery by michelle hatfield bee staff writer last updated: january 21, 2007, 10:24:40 am pst evergreen valley college's 90 percent passing rate on the national nursing exam wasn't good enough for richettia walker. instead, she came to modesto junior college. "i knew it had an excellent nursing program and that the pass rate is high," she said. "i thought 'the curriculum has to be good' and it actually is." but nursing students fear such superb programs are compromised because colleges are moving to lottery systems to determine who gets admitted. with more demand for classes than colleges have room for, some have started determining who gets in with a random drawing. using a lottery over a ranking system is meant to increase the diversity of nursing students, but some students feel that puts patient health at risk when top students are denied. officials need a way to limit the number of applicants because colleges across the state and nation do not have enough room for everyone. walker transferred to mjc from san jose's evergreen campus three years ago-grabbing one of 75 highly coveted spots that open up each semester. some california colleges are turning away 80 percent of would-be nurses. the state average is 40 percent, according to californians for patient care, a nonprofit group advocating health care reform. mjc denied 44 percent of qualified applicants last semester, and has 119 students on its waiting list. "i worked really hard and i hate to see the gimme attitude (of entitlement)," said andriana woodward, an mjc nursing graduate. "i see students now getting in who couldn't get in years ago under the ranking program. it's rewarding mediocrity. it's not rewarding the people who worked their butts off." woodward works in the neurocritical ward at doctors medical center. mjc's old system ranked students based on their college grade-pointaveragefrom prerequisite classes, english classes, and core biology classes. points would be subtracted for any biology classes that needed to be repeated. students need to meet a benchmark based on the equation to even qualify for the program. the formula includes the most effective measures in predicting completion of nursing programs, according to a 2002 study by the center for student success. the average grade-point average of incoming nursing students for mjc's spring semester is 3.23. pushing for a switch the california community college chancellor's office is pushing for a switch to the lottery, said bonnie costello, director of mjc's nursing program and a veteran nurse. officials at the state chancellor's office could not be reached for comment last week. "the lottery is nondiscriminatory once you qualify (for the program)," costello said. "some argued that some people were getting disproportionate access without the lottery." starting last semester, mjc uses a computer that randomly generates numbers for each student. people who have applied more than once and landed on the waiting list will have their names submitted multiple times to increase their chances, cos-tello said. while walker said she was fortunate to get into mjc's nursing program before the lottery system, she doesn't think it's accurate to base a person's knowledge on a letter grade. woodward said a combination of ranking and lottery systems makes the most sense for people who might be bad at taking tests. course load is rigorous if unqualified people get into the nursing program, the rigorous course load and internship should weed them out. "nurses are nurturing people, but the faculty have to be hard-edged. they can't let incompe-tency pass," costello said. instructors are top-notch and know how to tutor students, walker said. they also know when to hold someone back. but those students who drop out take away seats from more deserving students, some argue. "my concern is eventually they'll have to lower their standards," woodward said. "if students are not doing well in the prerequisites, they won't do well in the program." mjc's limited classroom and lab space restricts the number of students admitted, costello said. when the new allied health facility is eventually built with part of $326 million in measure e funding, officials hope to expand the number of seats to 100 each semester. enrollment also is limited to the number of spots available for students to complete their clinical internships at participating hospitals and doctors' offices, costello said. space limitations hamper state and college efforts to fill nursing spots-14,000 vacancies alone for registered nurses statewide. the empty slots translate into 35 vacancies in each california hospital, according to californians for patient care. schools trying to fill shortage mjc's nursing program is among many at colleges across the state that tries to pump out qualified nurses to fill the nursing shortage. programs also are available at california state university,stanislaus,columbia college and the university of phoenix. "most come in because they want to make a difference and nursing is a way to make a difference," costello said. meanwhile, walker continues her learn-by-doing experience. she works a 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. shift as a nursing student at memorial medical center once a week. she wants to work in critical care, a speciality that keeps her busy and constantly in motion. the position also sees patients who need lots of care. when reflecting on why she loves nursing, walker recalled the family of a patient who thanked her for her care and bedside manner. "that made me feel real good, made me feel i'm in the right field," walker said. "everyday i feel like i'm there for a reason." bee staff writer michelle hatfield can be reached at 578-2339 or [email protected]. program made front page local news in the sunday edition of the modesto bee. here is the article.

You Know Focker, I have stayed away from this topic for weeks now. However because of your logic expressed in the last posting I am going to make an exception. The C average students drop like flies the first semester. Why? Because they either lack the excellent study habits needed or the intellectual capacity to overcome the rigors of the nursing program. Do you doubt what I am saying? If you do, maybe you should find out. And when you do, please ask more than just the one person you know who has been through the program.

Now with this comment, you told us everything about your beliefs that we need to know. The posters in this thread were discussing a very real problem and then you chose to bring in this Aztlan argument. You just lost all respect in my eyes.

LIZZ Thank You, You make a lot of sense. Tim

Thanks for the info in re LA college. And the rest of you are right. The milk is spillt, it is spoiled, it is time to move on. I will let someone else clean up the mess. I am done talking about this.

OH and Focker I took the time to read your other postings. One of the basic qualities that a nurse should have are sense of compassion and tact. You were a little more tactful in your posting to me, but I think you still have room for improvement. Good Luck to you.

I had to read your post over and I am glad I did. The timeframe you talk about them changing the selection process is just about right. I have been there for a little over three years and it was sometime in my second semester that it changed. Please understand That it took me longer because I was not always able to attend full time due to the sickness of my close friend and roomate. I had already comimtted myself at the time and with my money situation it was immpossible to "Just Move" as you put it. If I was the only one I had to think about, I would sought a different school. Sometimes your choices are very limited. UNderstand I do think this is a big deal. Anytime you put a honors student on equal basis with someone who has just squeaked by with a 75% in competition for a place in a nursing school, that is to someone like me a very big deal. And to make matters worse, this is a private lottery without any public oversight. You might disagree with how I feel about it, but I do find this system unfair. Merit should be what counts and merit only.

it seems i am not the only one in modesto that is unhappy with this selection process. following is a letter to the editor of our local paper. i believe i know this girl. she is very capable and would be asset to any nursing staff. last updated: december 14, 2006, 05:15:26 am pst i find it ridiculous that a large institute such as modesto junior college only offers one nursing class a semester. i am an emergency room technician trying to become a nurse. for the fall semester, i was 44th on the waiting list; others who have been waiting longer were behind me. some, like me, teach nursing students how to do their jobs. now i am 84th on the waiting list. with more than six years experience in the medical field, i cannot get into the program. there are shortages in the nursing field and not very many deserving people can get in. at some schools, unless you live in their community you are told not to apply. how fair is that? we need more classes, not fewer. lara kelly modesto i was wondering if there are any groups fighting this selection process or is this a david vs goliath type of scenario? it just seems like some group somewhere should be doing something! if any one knows of such a group, please let me know.

Well i have to disagree with you. The chancellor;s model is only grade based as far as the cut score, at least that's how it is being presented at MJC.Some People with a score of 75 got in this semester. They had only applied in the fall for their first time. Now Stockton's system is grade based.If my transportation was not so bad I would have applied their also. And I am well aware of it. I used their formula one night to compute my own raw score. What is being presented at MJC is not what is presented on SJDC's web site. However I am interested on why you believe it is the same.

You know Lizz, you are 100% right. It really is a matter of principle. And our grades should count for something. I need to re-think my thought process from time to time. LIZZ I am curious to hear your views on the question I asked Zash. How do you feel working side by side with those in Nursing school who are just passing? Do you feel that they will make a good nurse, ect. ?

I am not sure of this, but is Loma Linda a teaching Hospital? If it is, this might be another option.

Zash I am curious. Some of those who are just passing concern me. That is more than some are In my humble opinion could be a danger to the pt's. Now I also realize that some who have achieved a high level of academic excellance can also be a danger. I have very mixed feelings on this subject. Can you tell me your thoughts on this subject?

I am proud person Lizz. And in a very real sense I am from the old school. An insructor of mine said to many of us one time "I do not grade on a curve, because in real life your are in competition with your peers". I believe that this is the way it should be. I do see some value to taking the steps you have mentioned, however I feel that at least for myself that I would being sacrificing a measure of my own pride to do so.

In a very real sense then, you prove my point that it is not a true lottery at all. You mentioned federal law requiring a certain mix based on ethnic identification and then you mention that Lizz might be on to something. So let's sum up. We have for the most part put those of merit on an equal basis with those who are just passing. Then we call it a lottery, but we tinker with it to come into compliance with various federal laws regarding diversity. And lastly we allow futher tinkering of the system to allow SOME of merit(not all) to subvert this so-called lottery by the methods that Lizz used.(Note- Lizz should have been there regardless based on her acheivement.) This again proves my point that this is an immoral and corrupt selection process and it needs to be changed.

Lizz, It sounds like you do not trust the integrity of the lottery system. A professional corp. in our area is also concerned about the integrity of the system. They want to see a selection process that is open to the eyes of the public. They petitioned our local school to release the surnames of all the qualified applicants and the surnames of those selected. The school would not release this info. sighting confidentiality requirements. Now I have made my case very clear in that I want the best qualified applicant to get the place in nursing school. But if it is to be a lottery against my preference of merit, then I want to see all qualified applicants put in a room together, have each of us put our name into a hat ourselves, and witness firsthand the drawing of the names. A system without public oversight is a system that can be manipulated and corrupted. I realize that I sound distrustful, but I do live in Calif. afterall.

Lizz Does Your school have a lottery? Because in a true lottery, standing out does not matter.

Thanks Ken, One of the things that I must have is coverage for my friend who is an epileptic. As a consequence, I need to be in a place that I can recieve support from family members. But if it was myself, I would love to attend school in such a beautiful area. I have been looking at many options and I have set in motion a plan, but like all plans in life it is not perfect, but it will allow me to eventually obtain my goals. Again, thank you for the support. Tim

Excellent post. You bring up many good points. One of the arguments that was used to justify this process at our local college is that they felt that a more pratical nurse was a better nurse, hence this leads toward the need felt by some to classify nursing as a vocation. And yes the consequence of this is lower pay.

ahh, the wonderful world of outsourcing!

Nice spin job there in that piece. I will just offer my opinion. Any system of selection that removes the right of self-determination away from the student and towards a system that uses a selection process based on a lottery for the purpose of socialization is profoundly corrupt and immoral. Any State Chancellor or Nursing School adminstrator who partakes in such an immoral process without a very active opposition has lost all perspective as it relates to professionalism and ethical conduct. I fear for the future of Nursing.

Seductive? Maybe. However, I remember how down I was just a few days ago when I started this topic. And all of you have helped me to renew my strength. So yes, I believe it is seductive but also it helps to talk to others that share the same dream. I would say it is a lifeline.

I think it is out of frustration. I really do not think it is out of a dislike. If those who have the power would invest into our own infrastructure, then we would not be having discussions about it. As for myself, I just want to see a better environment for those who aspire to enter this profession. As we have compassion toward those who are in need of care, I believe that our own government needs to have compassion toward us that desire to acheive.

Good Point!!! I did put all my eggs in one basket there for a while. That's not a very good thing to do.