ImaWonderer

okay ericsoln I read the posts and those are fair statements. Everyone needs to vent to someone in who is in a familiar position and has first hand knowledge of what goes on "behind the scenes" and not just what's in the brochure! I agree! I'm not dismissing your experiences and frustrations at all. I'm sure they are 100 valid based on what you see and experience as a nurse.If I was a nurse and was chewed out specifically for things that I knew were not in the best interest of the patient I would be just as frustrated.A patient that just had a heart attack and is demanding that I deliver a double whopper with cheese would drive me up the wall. Interesting thing about post 91 it mentions why a non-nurse would post and visit the board. The number ONE reason why i visit this board is because of past experiences that I had with medical care. There was always that feeling of what they say to the patient because its just "what they are supposed to say" and then hearing medical professionals (not just nurses)converse about how they really feel about things that are going on within medical care .Things they would almost never say to a patient and actually have their guard down. Only thing is I don't believe the "general public" is as quite blind as you think. I'm basing my views on what I have seen and experienced YES as a patient and what I have seen family members go through dealing with healthcare and the conversations that have been raging for years.It's based on my experience having a facility try to talk me into a surgery I knew I did not need and when I asked why I was LITERALLY told....."Well you have insurance....... you might as well get it done." Wow she was to lazy to even try to make up any medical mumbo jumbo. It's based on a beyond humiliating experience at a hospital that i won't even go into right now.........that could have been totally avoided. I see the points that you are making..........I'm willing to have a friendly debate,read ,post and listen to what others have to say!

quote] Just because I choose to not change bedpans for a living doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to respond to a post. Actually, ImAWonderer, that's exactly what it means, the website is "allnurses.com", you're not a nurse, nor a "bedpan changer", so why are you here? This simply made me laugh......now nurses are dictating who can visit what websites from their own computer?This is a site on the web folks it's not the ark of the covenant.

You are absolutely wrong if you think that I or general public falls for as you say the smoke and mirrors of any sort of administration/management that happens in healthcare. Now that's pathetic. Policies/Issues/Concerns/DEBATE YES I SAID DEBATE concerning healthcare are daily conversations people are having in their homes,hospitals and on the news and everywhere in between!!!! Just because I choose to not change bedpans for a living doesn't mean I shouldn't be allowed to respond to a post. I can agree/disagree with anyone about any topic and be respectful.....If you can't or choose not to then that's a sign of your character AND NOT MINE! Hmm.... something tells me you rated seriously low on many-o-surveys . What is your problem with anyone stating their view? You can post on a board but if anyone at anytime says as much as a syllable that you disagree with you start foaming at the mouth? I made it a point to say that I DIDN'T EVEN DISAGREE with many of the points made in the original post. Perhaps if you would have read what I wrote instead of throwing a tantrum and ripping your shirt open as you turned into the Hulk you would have realized that. DO YOU REALLY THINK THAT NURSES ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO DEAL WITH RED TAPE,BEAURACRACY,MANAGEMENT ISSUES.Your martyr routine isn't working. Oh and as for your comment about me IMPOSING on this board.....uhm okay..yeah... the thread is only posted on THE FREAKING WORLD WIDE WEB!!!!!!!! UHM THE INTERNET!!!!! GET OVER YOURSELF!

ima, if you were a nurse, you would understand what we are talking about. we are not talking about just smiling or showing common courtsey. of course we do that. (well most of us) we are talking about the fact that we are being asked to do things for the patient that go against good nursing judgement so they will be happy, and fill out a survey saying how great the place is. do you understand that it goes against every fiber in a nurses being to give diabetic patients with blood sugars in the 300's a large piece of cake? but they want it, and get mad when they dont get it. and they whine and they say you are a mean nurse. and we get in trouble if we don't get the damn cake. furthermore, laughing or making fun of a patient on a nursing website for nurses does not mean we are mean, bad people. we come here to vent so we can go back out there and deal with the diabetic woman who wants cake in a professional way. i very much understand what you're talking about respectfully. my point stays the same. customer service is stressed in practically every single industry where you come in contact with people.i don't believe that medical care should be exempt. surveys,follow up calls about satisfaction with "service",questionairres,strategically placed complaint...oops i mean comment boxes are extremely common in virtually every industry. let me be clear i do not think a nurse should be chewed out,get in trouble etc for not granting the diabetic patient cake. actually it makes more sense if they get in trouble or chewed out if they do...i fully understand how troubling that could be...i'm not arguing that specific point here or in my previous post.. at the same time i wouldn't exactly equate a push for customer service type attitude in medical care to drilling a hole in the head to let the spirits out. i'm not even saying that i fully disagree with several of the points that the original poster point out. i know nurses don't go into the medical field to get people's coffee.i was responding to the original posters question is the "customer service" push here to stay........and i believe it is.

I'm very sorry that you are having such a hard time.......limpingaway.I can tell the frustration and hurt from your post. The healthcare field is just crazy right and is going through a lot of changes for various reasons.(some for the better.some for the worse) When I read about your childhood dream turning into a nightmare I was able to understand it from another point of view that I didnt see before. To respond to the original post I do believe the customer service aspect of healthcare is here to stay! I don't work in the medical field so from the patients point of view I know first hand MANY of the frustrations that come along with that paper gown but at the same time being the nurse to so many people needing you to management who just push papers around all day must be ALOT to deal with!!!! Anyway best of luck to you and I hope you make the best decision for yourself and your sanity!!!!!

Why is this an either or situation? Doesn't EVERY industry aside from the post office and the DMV where you come in contact with other people have an element of customer service? If the teen flipping burgers for minimum wage is expected to smile and bring a certain level of customer service then shouldn't why can't the (nurse/doctor/technician etc....) who is asking you about your last bowel movement? The patient upon entering the door has to drop trou,share very personal intimate details about their health and body to an entire group of strangers and any interns/students/observers who feel like waltzing in. Why is it wrong for patients to want a certain level of customer service? I'm not implying you should be treated like or doormat or be required to put a mint on their pillow. But customer service is a part of basically EVERY SERVICE/BUSINESS I can think of.............. I'm not at all in favor of medical staff being viewed as a maids,butlers or servers from IHOP in a nursing uniform. But what I've noticed with the encounters Ive had personally with medical care is that if you are a patient youre basically on the medical staffs "territory." This type of view leads to people being "cared" for but it's like oh well we didn't get your meds screwed up so we can post your ass on Facebook, invite the janitor in to watch your pelvic exam all while propping the door open to not miss the Chinese Delivery Guy with the beef chow mein!!!! Again why is it either or? If a doctor smiles, if a CNA says good morning, if an intern asks a patient if its okay to observe, if the lady at the admission desk turns off her personal cell phone is the whole hospital going to collapse in on itself? Will hospital staff spontaneously combust? Will patients resort to cannibalism? I just don't get it? I don't care if you work in the medical field I don't care if you walk dogs for a living....... i"m just saying every service/industry/business I can think of has a customer service aspect to it. "It is no longer simply something schools/administration talk about, it is expected." UHM....yeah.........why shouldn't it be expected? This tells me this is something that should have been happening for years but staff for their own reasons ignored it....now its shocking because management is actually following through.......now its the freaking apocolypse:eek: The funny part is I've read several posts on here (various threads)where medical people think they should be celebrated and have a street named in their honor simply when they manage to not LAUGH in the patients face about a particular situation or conditon..........now to have to actually smile when you walk in the room....."A doctor who belittles a patient will not be tolerated"?!?!?!?!?!......crap like that should have NEVER been tolerated!!!!!..OH THE HUMANITY!!!!!!!

Wow I have to say I find this thread very interesting. I am not in the medical field and have no desire to be. I must say from a patients perspective I find everyone being referred to as "nurse" when they are not is absolutely disturbing. No disrespect to a CNA,MA the various techs that are out there. THEY ALL HAVE IMPORTANT JOBS!!!! but I find it very misleading to patients. I read an article that stated thats one common thing that many patients are frustrated with as well not knowing exactly who they are talking to and why. It's just interesting to see the same type of conversation taking place within the medical community.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/16/health/16dignity.html?_r=1&th=&emc=th&pagewanted=all Okay so I found a very intersting article along the lines of where this discussion is going. I'm not particularly a fan of the NY Times but this article actually does seem to have some real meat to it and its nice to see this topic addressed. Some parts are more intersting than others but stick with it. What i find interesting is that it talks about a the patients experience. (I believe one of the patients is actually a nurse) There are some interesting things here....I'm going to do more research on this Plantree organization and its work. Also patient care representatives and what EXACTLYthey do and if they deal with modesty issues. The article also makes reference to ENVIORNMENTAL PSYCOLOGISTS.....(this is the first time Ive even heard of that) but it talks about the psycology of what happens to people entering medical care and how patients are effected by everything from design to noise to the infamous gown.....The most interesting thing is all the things we have been talking about (EXCEPT GENDER...yes I noticed) this article talks about.....complaints about people just walking in,coming and going, and many times not even SPEAKING to the patient or introducing themselves. I find it interesting that MANY "educated people" in the medical field seem to be shockingly ignorant at how having an univited group of observers just walking in ...... How not knocking or introducing themselves, opening doors carelessly,dismissing modesty issues...etc....effects care. We have along way to go...when the people "caring"for us considers all these issues hangups, and phobias but the good news is that their is NO doubt in my mind that these changes Are coming!!!!!

Hi...... and to sandracvrn This is a quick one...perhaps Ill go through and locate the skateboard incident but now from memory...... This teen was injured and was banged up from a skateboarding injury on his legs/knees. Im sure I used the word naked but he did have on a gown the thing is in looking at his injury the nurse lifted his gown to the point wear his genitals were exposed with several others standing around. The kid was obviously embarrassed and made an effort to cover himself when the nurse made some comment that dismissed his embarrassment and the gown was lifted again by the nurse.(again with several students standing around) I used the word naked.....but even in one of those gowns if my privates are hanging out for everyone to see I consider that "naked"........... As far as medical students needing to watch or how are they going to learn.....I'm in agreement I simply believe the patient should know in advance and not be ambushed,suprised....Also a patient who may be comfortable with ONE student observing doesnt mean they are comfortable with 4 students watching...... Things like that need to be addressed BEFORE the patient in undressed.......Thats basic respect.....

I just read the great post by tbrd450.... I'm repeating myself but thats my point of why you cant let the fox guard the hen house. A doctor should not be able to just "pop in" to talk about a tv show Its to the point where the doctor doesnt care or is completely oblivious about what this does to the patient. So now the patient is exposed needlessly and to anyone standing in the hallway while the doctor has opened a door that should have not been opened. The woman giving birth is busy.... who is there to protect her against the "live studio audience" ...the skateborder with his gentals on display for ANYONE walking down the hallway.....this is simply humiliating and inexcusable behaviour. This MOB mentality and psychology of the GROUP is not going to change unless we put the brakes on a say YOU CAN NOT DO THIS!!!!! Tell a nurse to take her pants off an walk around the hallway and see how she feels.......weve all seen a lady parts before....no big deal right!!!!!!! Let has these people get written up for violations like this, let them know it will have on effect on them keeping their jobs to affecting their raises,etc . They are NOT looking out for patients when leaving someone unable to care for themselves "uncovered" ecause its faster......Ifthat was their mother,father,friend would they feel the same way......UHM NO........... There was a poster who mentioned patients being brought up from the ER naked when thier was NO reason for it. I asked well why is this happening??????? uhm.....CRICKETS ...no answer.....Thats because their is NO EXCUSE!!!! The post goes on to say really "SOMEONE" should have gotton this patient a gown......I find this simply CRUEL and Dehumanizing.....What in the world are these people thinking?.....Their thinking so what its not them its just patient ABC........ To any medical professional who would resist an advocate for the patient (outside of them)for fear of not being "trusted" or being "watched" this is EXACTLY why many patients need it....left to their own devices and the ability to police themselves patients end up naked in the hallway being told "Dont be embarrassed...you dont have anything we havent seen before......We're all professionals here:nurse:

Let me be clear.........I am not for pushing an advocate on anyone who doesnt want one.I would WELCOME just as many men to go into the field as women. Actually I think it sounds like a great opportunity since men/boys often feel their modesty concerns are never taken seriously.(true) Also when it comes to an advocate not doing much for modesty because it would just be one more person in the room. I believe that the role of what your advocate does can vary. They may or may not even be in the room. They could possibly be the person insuring no unneccasary people enter the room if those are your wishes..... The way it is now anyone seems to just be able to walk in. (i'm not actually talking about surgery) but its common during certain intimate appointments to have a gang on students, interns ,people who you have no idea who or what position they are in to simply walk in because they want to. So for me if I'm having a appointment or in the hospital for MANY things I WOULD NOT desire an advocate. But in other cases if I have to be knocked out and in a state of undress or some type of intimate procedure then I would certainly want someone there on MY behalf. Is the advocate simply there to put a damper on unprofessional behaviour. To a LARGE extent as far as i am concerned YES YES YES......If I am under I do not trust that unneccassry people will not be in the room,that pictures are not being taken,that unprofessional comments on everything from breast size to genitals are being talked about,I dont trust that a medical student isnt allowed to come in and practice a pelvic exam,I dont trust that I'm not being exposed IF it isnt nessacary. If I had an advocate someone on my behalf looking out for me I would feel FAR MORE CONFIDENT........ Even if a patient is fully conscience they may still want an advocate. Many times during a medical situation its not uncommon that a patient will be scared, intimidated,overwhelmed and feeling extremely vulnerable. In cases like these some patients may very much want an advocate some may not. Again I believe the role of WHAT an advocate does and to what extent can vary. I will agree with an earlier person who stated an advocate should have training and it would be very difficult for a (spouse, friend, relative) to see their loved one being cut on, see blood, etc and it could lead to more problems than being helpful ...Great point!!!!. I'm ALL for having these types of discussions!!!!!!!! Im not dismissing GENDER at all.....someone mentioned having retired medical professionals enter this field (paid/volunteer) Yes most nurses are females but what about male retired Doctors/EMT/paramedics/surgical techs. There is a VAST amount men with a medical experience that would be phenominal candidates to advocate for men/boys. Again this doesnt mean they would be staring at you get your prostate examined....but men have these legitimate concerns so they should yell, scream ,protest,organize, demand changes and make the system better. I am concerned for modesty male/female but we as patients are going to have to demand it.

I too am LARGELY in favor of an advocate for the patient (seperate from the medical staff). Thing is I constantly hear medical professionals talk about how they are the advocate for the patient. The problem is the issue of the Fox guarding the hen house. This is simple... read some of the posts on here. Post where a nurse talks about patients routinely being brought up from the ER naked for no reason. The post about the gyn calling a crowd over to look at a girls lady parts only to talk about the way she shaves.(while she was under). A post about a doctor jiggling the body fat of a patient and singing a song about it while the nurses/techs all laughed.I also recall a post about a high school student watching a patient have a surgery as part of a program used to encourage students to enter the healthcare field . Thing is I'm CERTAIN the patient had no idea she was some kids "homework." Someone made reference and called modesty concerns patient had "hangups,phobias and quirks." This type of attitude is EXACTLY WHY there is a need for advocates for the patient. If an advocate was in that room what are the odds that the doctor would have kept his stupid song to himself. Much less grabbing the patient they way he did. Much less have a room filled with "healthcare providers" laughing. This is simply one example but the list goes on and on and on. When one poster brought up the issue of a patient advocate someone responded how it would be a problem because of additional "traffic" The problem is without an advocate patients OFTEN end up with more people walking in who "wanna look" and crowd around.The patient can often feel embarrassed ,humiliated,intimidated,shy lets face it. Their was a poster i believe under another thread say the reason he wouldnt ask if his prescene in the room was okay (i believe it had to do w a woman giving birth) is because he knew she would say no. So he would just enter and unless the patient said anything then it was "okay' wink wink..... The arguement:Consent forms would have to be changed stating that a medically unneccasary person would be in the room. THIS IS ALREADY HAPPENING!!!! Id rather have one person on my side to ensure 5 medically unnecassary people werent in the room gawking at me.Again I'm making reference to conscience patients as well as those under and knocked out. The arguement:you asked would the person stand and watch or get in your way. Well so a chaperone,medical students and the pizza delivery guy can stand and watch with no problem. But an advocate that is there on my behalf is all of a sudden knocking over supplies and filling the latex gloves with water for fun. You also asked how much "education"will the person have . Great Question!!!! However I suggest we start with its innappropriate to grab a patients fat and jigglie it while singing a song and work from there. A comment was made about the staff resenting being "watched."Well try this resent being watched, get naked and place your feet in stirrups and now invite in 5 more people. This is what patients are made to feel like when they are brought up from an ER naked with no reason, when doors are carelessly left open, when they are having a doctor talk about the way you shave your pubic hair in front of a group of people. Medical professionals certainly have rights ....yes we all agree...but again the fox is guarding the hen house here. This change IS coming to the healthcare industry.People are pushing for it and are demanding it and organizing.:yeah:The argument:a hospital that uses these techniques (advocates/cameras)shows it doesnt trust its employees. LET me be clear MANY PaTIENTS DO NOT TRUST THE EMPLOYEES . Just read some of the posts on this board!!!!! Why in the world would they???????

Honestly I think anytime you get a group of women together this is the the type of stuff that happens........regardlss of the industry. I am female (not a nurse) lets face it this happens all the time.

Why has this subject seen a renewal of interest? I believe the interest has always been their but perhaps their hasnt been an outlet available in a structured way to vent these concerns. When it comes to patient modesty I believe millions of people have had situations happen that left the patient feeling that something just wasnt right with the way something was done or carried out. Just look at some of the posts here. There was a reference made to patients being brought up from the OR naked when there was no need for it.The poster said it made her upset but there was ZERO explanation of WHY it continuously happens.Another nurse made reference to a worker uncovering patients knee to chest when it wasnt necesary (or longer than necessary im writng this based on memory) The nurse said it made her angry and she would cover the patient but again NO explanation as to why this worker is exposing patients in this manner again when it is not necassary.Another nurse told the story of a guy who came in w something stuck around his member and came to the ER for removal. This nurse (on here and on her fB page) told how she was really just curious and wanted to see it so she admits she LIED to the patient saying she needed to see it so she could document it. The nurse says the guy had "no problem"showing her. If he has no problem why not say "Hey I have nothing to do with this object being removed but gee that sounds pretty hilarious.... let me just look at it so I can go home and post details about it on my facebook page! oh yeah dont worry I'm a professional" .Then there is my own story of being examined in stirrups as a teen only to have the door open (no knock)and 4 people walk in like they were just strolling in the park.This list could go on and on and on and on. In a previous post of mine I was making reference to staff just barging in,not knocking,not pulling curtains,not introducing who you are a nurse,doctor,tech,chaperone,CNA,chinese food delivery guy etc.........I asked why are these BASIC things lacking so much in healthcare. I wouldnt go to my parents house with out knocking on the front door so why would you think nothing of bringing a gang into watch a guy having his prostate examined. Ha .......i didnt get a response I could never work in the medical field Im the firstperson to say you guys have a difficult job. I just ask that you remember that you are working with human beings....add a sickness and subtract their clothes and a group of strangers to the mix and maybe you will see why this is such an important issue . Let me say a quick Thank God for HIPPa with as much gossip goes on about who has what,who came in today,who has this ,who has that now mixed with social networking EVERYONES details would be posted for the whole world to see from head to toe . With all the info that is given out down to the town and the hospital i would HATE to see my doctor/nurse posting the latest thing her patient did or came in for. ( the smaller the town the scarier) Why in the world are these people doing this (and it is COMMON).......... I think these have ALWAYS been issues. Patients it seems now are WANTING to ORGANIZE,SPEAK OUT and SPEAK UP and DEMAND a CHANGE. The "you dont have anything we havent seen before" routine is OLD and has been used for a long time (even at times with the best of intensions) to dismiss patients concerns when it comes to modesty and it just isnt gonna cut it anymore. I do not work in medical care but it doesnt take a medical degree to cover a nude person that doesnt need to be nude. It doesnt take years of training to realize a teen may not welcome 6 people (unnanounced) to watch her in stirrups sadly those years of training taught MANY to just barge in and unless the half naked,humiliated ,vulnerable patient speaks up well.......that must means its okay.

Great Post CaDad I have to say that I agree that yes Doctors/nurses etc see people at their best and worst. Yet so do police officers and they should not be able to use their authority to abuse people. Social Workers see and know the best and worst but they can not use the information they have and blab it to everyone in their neighborhood. Pastors hear peoples confessions,regrets,mistakes and also know the best and worst in people but shouldnt be able to use that information to belittle another human being. Since you mentioned the example of seeing objects in God Knows what orifice...yes okay I got you. When it crosses the line for me is when pictures get taken with the cell phone, x rays get passed around just for laughs, a whole gang gets brought in to "assist" wink wink. Just curious as to why this is allowed to happen.I can think anything is hilarious,disgusting,unimaginble,bizarre and just right out stupid and thats fine but that person is still a human being..... if those things throw you then perhaps you should work in a flower shop. the golden Rule would save patients a lot of embarrassment and anger...again recognize gender at least as a valid issue,close curtains,knock on doors before entering,realize that just because you are a "shadow" the patient can still see you. Just think if you were the person with your back out in the gown and told to remove your underwear in a room filled with fully clothed staff asking you everything from the number of sexual partners to when your last period and/or bowel movement was your perspective is different. Just saying from the patients point of view this can be embarrassing,humiliating and traumatic.Medical people see this all the time so its no big deal. To the patient its often a different story.