CaDad

You hit on a very uneasy and difficult subject that has been discussed in several other blogs, both from the pt's perspective and of course the nurse or murse's perspective. PT perspective: Some don't care, usually because they have ongoing, continued interaction with all members of the Care staff, Doctors, interns, Nurses, Murses, ETC. The have been desensitized to modesty issues because of their situation. New PT.s, those who rarely if ever interact with the medical profession are not sensitized and more often than not have issues with their modesty, which the medical staff in general finds irritating, since they have seen it all anyways. So at the end of the day, especially when a pt has not been consulted about issues like this, you can make yourself at risk for some pretty unpleasant times if you don't follow the procedure. I think that males pt's should have a male nurse present when a female medical; person is administering care, just like female pt's have female nurses when a male administers medical care.

If a PT does not want to be cathed what is the problem? I recently took a neighbor to the hospital and you would not believe the hoopla it caused when he refused to have a foley. he has the right, he was not unconsciousness or in any way incapacitated so he could not use a urine bottle if he had to, I finally told the nurse to just note it on the chart.This insistence on using foly's is just plain ridiculous.

Megan121-don't you think that makes things worse? Now the poor male pt has to contend beig exposed to two females-UG, whats a guy to do.? This double standard of giving privacy and modesty consideration to females pt's and ignoring their male counterparts is ridiculous and really really needs to just stop. I happen to be in Er the other day , at the request of a physician to discuss a piece of medical equipment,when a youn man ( I have no Idea his real age), a teenager though, made it pretty clear how much he hated the women ignoring his modesty and he would rather be dead then ever go to a hospital again. How sad is that? I think that this happens more often then not, a lot of males simply will not go to the doctor because they do not wish to deal with the attitudes a lot of female Doctors and nurses have about male modesty. Putting a chaperon in with another female is just the most stupid, craziest thing I have ever heard. Simply amazing!

HM2vikingRN, Actually I see nothing wrong with what you did, what you did do was give the patient the consideration of her modesty, an admirable quality if I say so myself-a quality I wish the female nurses had more of for male PT's.

WilliamD, I am a male and I demand it all the time as do a lot of other males. I think you may be surprised how many times this request is actually made. What happens though is the male PT is either ignored, ridiculed, or told it is not possible regardless if the reality of it. There is in fact a real double standard, I am supprised you don't know that!

Hi you guys: A few comments if AI may: First and foremost I am gratified that female nurses addressing male modesty and privacy issues is a huge statement on how things are changing and I for one am sincerely gratified and gratified on your taking positions that in all probability are not popular with voters in your profession. It does bring up the question on what your colleges feel about this discussion . 1-AgencyAngel: I am supprised when you state you have never had a male PT refuse care, and Advo-Kate2 is dead on, many females do not recognize the body language or" male speak" when it comes to this. For example, silence is a dead giveaway we are shocked and do not how to address the situation, without a choice we simply do not know we have one. Also joking or crude jokes is a very plain expression of just how uncomfortable we are in the situation. I might also add, I personally could not bear to have my daughter ( who is also a nurse) do personal care for me-I would die of embarrassment, and I would hope you would ask family members to perhaps leave while you are doing some of this, if your not-all I can say is , how would you feel being watched being bathed or cathed ? I understand that male languaging or body language can be confusing but the none the less ,it is factual. I think if you verbalize something along this line, " I understand you may be uncomfortable or embarrassed about ................. a lot of men like their privacy, may I see if I can get a male nurse for you? Just trying to help here lol. 2-Advo-kate2, how utterly refreshing and shocking to see a female stand up for us males!!!!!!!! I can't tell you how much this is appreciated! There is a huge number of men and boys who will shun medical care because of this issue. I know it sounds ridiculous, but for men, it defines us and we make choices without discussion with the women in our lives. We just do not care to argue about our feeling or discuss them because we already know the majority of females think we have no modesty, or should not have any modesty ( where this comes from I will never understand) And it certainly does not help if we have no communication skills like women in voicing our discomfort or if you happen to experience the male exhibitionist either and think they are representative of us. All in all, PT care is complicated to say the least but it is gratifying to know progress is being made, this discussion is a prime example of that!!! I hope your attitudes carry over in your work place and others take not of them. The Pt/Nurse relationship is a symbiotic one, you cannot take the personal relationship out of the care. ONE MOE THING!!!! FLicking? why I think I would hurt someone that did that to me lol-that would be simple assault pure and simple-that must be one of those rumors that will not die! I am always surprised and delighted at Advo-kate2 deep and intellectual understanding on the subject and her uncanny ability to verbalize what some of us agr struggling to do, many many thanks!!!! have a wonderful 4th everyone and I for one am grateful to be able to be in these discussions.

hmmmm-your right-and personally, I am a Dad and me and my sons all preferred the circumcision. I did take the time to ask them what they thought and so you have it, Most guys prefer it also-it would be different if it was otherwise.

I for one am ticked and angry that this so called Doctor made statements so demeaning to males. And it galls me no action was taken against her either. The majority of men will not go to the Doctor or Hospital because we just do not want the hassle or argument, we have our modesty and it doesn't matter what you have to say. It doesn't make us feel better you have seen it all, we don't care if you no longer have any sexual feeling for the opposite gender, we don't care if you think we are being childish, we don't care you consider yourselves professionals, it is so easy for you to make these judgments when you are the clothed one in the room So all of you in the medical field , heads up, Its your Husband, Boyfriend, Brother, Son, Uncle, Grandfather, and other men in your life your causing not to go to the hospital. We really don't care what you call us or what you have to say, were modest and tired of having to put up with your calloused approach to our dignity. We would just rather not deal with it. So every tme you assume men are not modest, or have no modesty or our modesty is childish and someone you love passes away, you know why. It is sad , but true. And every time to disregard a young mans or boys modesty, just think about the consequences, that will be the last time he will go to the doctor unless it is an emergency.

I agree , the article did not address the huge difference between male and female modesty issues but did point to some of the reasons and observations on how some in the profession behave in a very stressful environment. It was not condoning but exploratory and it did cause me to pause .None the less, at the end of the day, it was drawing upon the conclusion, based on lots of research, that a Patient/Caregiver relationship needs to be developed and maintained for the benefit of both and when the modesty of the PT is trivialized it demeans the relationship, extends the recovery and both parties suffer. You cannot take the the relationship out of the care process like many do. ort wish they could do. It is against the very nature of what Nursing is all about.

Hi Again: There is an excellent article in this monthly nurses magazine and it hit it on the head on several areas. What I found amazing is that several of the behavioral characteristics discussed apply to other industries lol. Like the one characteristic of becoming mechanical , treating th pt like an object, etc. Great and telling article. I also want to clarify the advocate role, perhaps they might be attached to HR, where the patient is talked to during and after the stay, like just routine visits-not staying in the room during sensitive tasks, specifically making sure their modesty needs were respected or accommodated without any repercussions from the staff. Even providing training or refresher courses on new research or polls, etc. I know, what? more training? But I think that this kind of training is sadly lacking. Maybe we even have cyclical evaluations to detect burnout so maybe a rotation can be utuilized into anothr department. This advocate can even be the person where anonymous personnel can discuss the actions of another employees without reprecussion or disclosure so than any incident can be looked at and perhaps addressed, not in an adversarial way, but in a caring diplomatic fashion so everyone wins. We do not need a hospital cop lol. But someone who would have the power to initiate change where necessary. My brother recently went in to have his prostrate examined because of the higher readings on the test he as given and he requested , yup, a male crew, well guess what, there was an all female staff ready to help lol-he declined the test and gave his doctor you know what and his Doctor told him more and more men are requesting this, so I guess it worked and information is getting out to more and more men. I have to say I am sincerely grateful to the female nurses on this discussion, it is gratifying to hear you understand, comment, and address the issue. I know this blog was about the OR room , but it is more than that, I sincerely believe that most of the damage is done prior to the operation, it everything that happens up to that dreaded moment and afterward that is the worst.

Hiyas all: I have commented on several other blogs regarding this forum and I have to add a few comments on this one. First and foremost I am a rep for a hospital supply company and I see tons everyday! Not only in the Hospital but in Private practice also. I can assure you that a double standard exists for males and females. I constantly strive to understand what I am reading and what I see everyday and it is troubling. I think there are several reasons we are having this modesty discussion: First of all, I am thankful there are those out there that are taing this issue seriously, it is appreciated. I have observed a few things that I think contribute to the laxity of adressing the modesty issue. 1- The nurse ( M/F) has been around so long thhey have lost any connection to the PT. Their:eek:opinion is we help you the best we can, take it or leave it! I cannot be bothered by the childish and immaturity of the PT, I'm busy saving lives! 2- I have seen it all comment , really? It's all so much skin right? You don't even notice anymore? The Female Nurses/Staff have no real Idea on what we males really think about our modesty. And most don't care anyways. The general conscientious is males are not modest and furthermore, modesty for males is a childish and immature concept that neesds to be dealt with immediately. I have actually heard mothers make this statement, and I have many male friends who will not have anything to do with their mothers either because of a total disregard of the male childrens modesty. But I digress,. This issue extends outside of the medical profession I am sad to say. Your right on several counts though ,about males not wanting to get medical help. How many men in your lives willingly go to the Doctor? I recall reading about the little boy who did not want his underwear removed and he was forced to do so ( they actually fought with him!)... I wonder if he will willingly avail himself of medical care in the future-wanna bet on the outcome? I am the same way I am sad to say, to many memories of utter embarrassment to contend with and I am sorry, I just am not going to go to see a Doctor or go to the Hospital if I can help it. To the female staff, just how would you feel if you knew your Dad, Husband, Brother in Law, Uncle, or son died because of a simple thing called modesty. Now I know I am beating a dead horse, it has been discussed to death, but guess what-it is very relevant as a few of you already have postulated. I don't know a single male who will willingly go to the Hospital or Doctor because of this issue. It is VERY IMPORTANT to us ladies! 3-I do feel there should be a pt advocate, someone separated from the medical profession and staff, someone that can intercede on behalf of the Pt when the pt needs it. What is so wrong with that, obviously the people working in the environment cannot police themselves in many cases. I have read with concernation the concerns voiced by nurses about PT care, but everyone is scared to death to address the issue, intercede, or take a stand. I think there are far to many instances of " because that is the way it is always done" a-Like shaving a person when it really is not necessary b-Haveing nonessential personnel in the room while an invasive proceedure is being done like cathing, or peri care( This is a huge one!) c-Removing all underclothing for minor operations , like the eye surgery discussed earlier. d-The general disregard for the pt modesty when it was absolutely not warrented. I recall the woman talking about being nude in stirrups trying to give birth, tied down no less. no covering, nothing. e-Unnecessary cathing ( Id rather be caught dead than be cathed personally! I am in the Er and around the Or alot and I see what goes on and it is not a pleasant scenerio. I will give on one point, there are many times when the PT must have as little clothing on as possible to accomodate a lot of operations, but not all of them. And, there are far to may non-essential people in the room for my comfort, including ER, the most aggregious of all areas! My vote is for the PT advocate and of course, more male nurses!!!

I find discussions like these, on boards like this ,furthers the education of everyone who participates. DonMD hit the nail on the head in so many areas I don't know what I want to comment on :-] None the less, I was also reading another topic " What I learned in Er, or something like that" It is no wonder that the medical staff gets so calloused in their every day work when they see the stupidity they encounter every day. Like the various objects they find inserted in every orifice a person has.... It can be daunting, disturbing, disgusting, and disconcerting to see humanity on so many levels and at their very worst. If the general public really knew what you see and do every day they would be humbled that you even go to work every day!!!! I for one, in spite of the observations I have vented here, have nothing but the highest respect for the Doctors and Nurses and medical staff that work to help people. But, there is always a but, the first step in any problem solving situation is recognizing that there may be a problem. There are countless studies that will tell you that PT recovery is significantly accelerated when the PT is emotionally supported in a caring, supportive environment. The cavalier treatment of males in general does not help in the recovery and mental well being. Everyone has some reponsability in helping making change and perfecting our trade, that is why our system is the best in the world, we have the ability to make change happen when it is a benefit. I know it is difficult, that you may be snickered at or though of as a nut, but being an advocate in what ever small capacity you may have, is the highest compliment you can receive. All of the Medical personnel I have met love their jobs and genuinely care for the PT, it is just that this issue of miodesty is somehow lost in all of the work and trauma of the day, but it is so vitally important!!!! How would you feel if you knew your son, Uncle, Grandfather, Husband or brother refused to go to the Doctor, Hospital because of this small insignificant issue of modesty? But I can tell you , in fact, it is a real reality, more than you can even imagine. How senseless and tragic. And it starts early in our upbringing. This is not the correct forem to go into all the details here, but DonMd stated it pretty clearly, the general notion that somehow modesty for males, at any age, is nonsense, silly, and males should not be modest or have modesty issues is an old wives tale. I sincerely hope that these discussions at least get some of the readers pause ,to reconsider their positions and help move the culture to making change on a topic that is at best, unpopular with the medical arena. When we forget about the modesty of our charges, we loose a little bit of our humanity every time it takes place. When others observe your diligence in protecting the PT, we give them pause to consider how they do their jobs . Ignoring the culture and offenses perpetuates the abuse. I hope I mad some sense here. At the end of the day, I know everyone here only wants what is the best for our PT's, and an analysis on what we do and how we react to our environment is a huge step in the right direction.

To RetiredToSoon: Your post deals directly with how a lot of men feel about females nurses also. How interesting. As someone who works with the medical field daily, I am always, always amazed at why this confusion exists. In a perfect androgynous world there obviously would not be any qualms on who took care of you and what the caregiver was seeing, unfortunately, until robots are utilized, the Pt has these naturally occurring modesty issues. Just because someone else has seen us, does not equate to the pt becoming indifferent and loosing their modesty. I can assure you that there is an equally proportioned part of the population that feels the same way about their Doctor. I cannot tell you how many Nurse friends I have who have female Doctors , their Daughters have Female Doctors, etc. Its pretty normal IMHO.

Yes I know, locks on the door, what is up with that!!! But my Doctor is Indian ( From India) and perhaps it is a culture thing ! None the less, It did take me a while to find a Doctor who did understand-, the things that happened actually happened!

Hi Advo-kate2: That was really well written and I think you hit the nail on the head. I might also add , for a lot of people ,it is their first experience in a hospital setting like this. Traumatising does not actually convey the full impact a lot of pt's experience.. A lot of males are so dumbfunded at the calloused disregard of their privacy that we really do not know what to do!!!! ( its is actually pretty easy to notice: our feeble attempt at small talk, inappropriate jokes or flertation, etc)But I can assure you of one thing, they won't be back ,regardles of how serious a conditin can be. It is why we males, just won't go to the doctor, as silly as you may think that is. So when your DAd, Brother, Boyfriend, Husband or son just won't get that check up or address something causing them discomfort ,you know why. It is one of those things we just won't contend with or talk about. I don't see how dialog on this subject is going to be helpful actually, the female nurses in general refuse to acknowledge or address the issue. It is considered childish and stupid. Something more needs to happen, perhaps a class in PT emotional care would help or some litigation, ( worst possible scenero) may adress this. BUt adresss it we must, it is the only reational thing to do.:)

I just can't resist adding to the statement from ImaWnderer!! All of this conversation really boils down to just getting treated with some dignity, I immediately thought the same thing, why doesn't poet say something to the other Nurse? I hate to be redundant here, but it seems like the pt's are treated more like assembly line merchandise instead of the people they really are. Here's a recent example I saw yesterday.I was talking to a Doctor in er when a nurse came by and asked a PT if the student nurses could observe the wound and observe the treatment . This this poor guys was laying on a gurney, his knee all tore up from a skate boarding accident, they had to cut off his pants and he had a blanket covering him. The nurse pulled the blanket clear up to his chest exposing his gentiles when all they were suppose to see was the injured knee.The poor guy tried to cover himself with his hands-it was pathetic and the nurse completely ignored his obvious embarrassment and just continued talking about the injury and the student nurses were checking everything out except the knee, it was a circus. He complained afterwords and the reponse? Don't be childish, we are here to get you well, we have seen it all before. Well, actually not so, these were student nurses and they had not in fact seen it all., but that is not the point-the total disregard for this guys modesty was simply ignored.

Just a note: I work for a company that provides medical supplies to Hospitals and Private practice so I am in your environment everyday. I get a pretty wide overview on hospitals and private practice and as much exposure as I have had I am always supprised at what I experience daily.

WOW-some pretty articulate and well founded o observations to be sure: Unfortunately ,I agree with cul2. Males are generally discriminated against. They are lied to and given false information regarding the availability of males nurses ( or female nurses for female pts) when it comes to modesty or privacy issues because their request is simply considered needless and without merit. How dare a male or female have modesty issues, after all you have seen it all and it is nothing more than like changing a tire in a garage if your a mechanic. I have observed this countless times in Hospitals and Doctors offices I can assure you. And it is not just the invasive procedures or peri care either, its the total disregard for general privacy. I have observed Nursing staff exposing the pt to anyone and everyone while they are performing their duties and that is even more appalling! Imawonder stated she felt she could have had more privacy in the middle of a shopping mall...I can also tell you that many times inappropriate remarks are an attempt at levity to cover their discomfort in a very awkward situation. Just what would you have him say? Sooo how's the weather?And of course your absolutely right, we can and do just go somewhere else when we find out our requests cannot or will not be met. You might be supprised how often that is taking place. But there is a darker side to this, and I doubt poet will have any empathy either. There are a lot of males traumatized early in their youth (like the example given by ImaWonderer) that simply will not go back to a doctor or hospital unless they are darn near death. How would you feel if you had a son who severely injured himself and would not tell someone because he did not want to experience the humiliation again?It is that traumatizing!!! Contrary to popular belief ,the majority of males do not wish to expose themselves or flaunt their gentiles at any female coming near them! This absurd belief that males do not have modesty is one of those myths that just won't go away, its like the myth that every girl who dresses sexy wants to have sex-!!!! Pretty stupid stereotyping isn't it? We simply do not have professions where you can pretend to be androgynous. No matter how much you may want to, it is imposable to separate the physical side from the emotional side and they go hand in hand in pt's getting better. More and more studies are telling us that healing has a direct impact on the pt's sense of well being. No one disputes that the situation is currently woefully inadequate in handling male requests, but accommodation when requested is something the pt deserves, after all, your suppose to be the pt's advocate aren't you? It is simply shocking that poet is so calloused in this regard. We simply need to fully appreciate the human condition and give the pt every consideration when it comes to their comfort in a very distressful situation.

Great Questions poet!!!For the family Doctor(s): Yes *Daughter ( RN) and Wify have Their own female Doctor *Son and I have our own Male Doctor And just so everyone knows, there is a whole other matter for discussion regarding private practice, I can assure you they are having their own problems, so it is not just a hospital issue. Other than intimate examinations or procedures, I or my family don't care. You make very good points though on some earlier observations about context. In my Humble opinion there is change happening, we cannot assume that the way it was done is going to stay the way it is. I for one, see change as a good thing. The Human condition is complex and encompasses the emotional and personal side as well. Once cannot work on one aspect and ignore the others, they all fit together and affect the outcome. A specific instance is the story told by ImaWonderer about her experience and the one about the young boy.

Stone age,? really? It's unreal you can say that if you have read the blogs on the topic and the issues we are discussing. Of course trauma and lifesaving are of the utmost importance, and who cares what anyone's gender is , but, and there is a big big butt here, there are egregious situations in er that just don't need to happen. None the less, We are essentially discussing what is happening elsewhere in the hospital where needless ignorance or calloused disregard of the PT's emotional health is at steak here. I repeat, your not working in garage on automobiles here but with real live people who in all probability have never been in a hospital their entire life and what happens is pretty distressing. Yea-your professionals-but your not adrogioious either, totally devoid of any curiosity, emotions or feeling so we just are not buying into that old stone age reply, " Were professionals here!" It would help if you were naked while invading our privacy, but I guess thats just realistic. One could say we have seen it all also so why not be naked in there with us? I know its stupid, but perhaps your getting the idea. It is soo much easier to be the clothed one while we have our gentiles exposed and worked on and pontificate on our childish behavior. I respectfully, disagree with you.

I do believe you hit the nail on the head. I do have several nursing instructor friends who do tell me more and more males are joining the ranks, but yes it is slow but increasing .I personally think gender saturatwed professions are disappearing which is a good thing for everyone and I agree that the institutions are generally satisfied with the status quo, but I also know that complaints are increasing and that the institutions are slowly but increasingly being held accountable. YOur overview is telling and exacting though.

Well I can certainly tell you were traumatized lol, I get that and I want you to know if I was your husband I would have done all I could to prevent your experience! I was shocked at what you wrote. Just to digress for a moment, it is simply outrageous how so many females have this opinion that males do not have modesty issues, or should not have modesty issues and that somehow, this is an immature thing to have. I have actually been told that BTW! I cannot explain where this comes from. I can assure you if you filed a complaint you would in all probability get a sympathetic ear. I think you should. Yours is one exception I am shocked at, the vast vast majority of the time female PT's are given their requests, we as men are simply told , there is nothing we can do, if you don't like it than go somewhere else, which by the way I have done on more than one occasion. Like yourself, I have a high regard for Nurses, they are worked like mules, and they certainly have my respect, they just don't seem to understand we want the respect back . I just hope our posts here at least educate them on how things are on the other side of the experience.

TO: ImaWonderer: Wow: You hit it dead on the head!!!!!! I also am tired of the nurses saying " They have seen it all" also!!!! Ir would be easier if they also were nude in the room with me while they were doing their job, I think I might just feel a little bit better-after all: I have see it all also!!! The story about the 11 yr old boy was infuriating also-how dare anyone assume something so stupid, so what if his mom changed his diaper?-Imagine if it were a young female and her Dad was standing there-what do you want to bet it would not be so amusing? The calloused disregard of the mother together with the Doctor was sickening ,can we say child abuse here? Because that is exactly what it is. I hope that ImaWondering cleared that up with the kid mother- I am constantly amazed at how calloused some have become toward common decency and respect. I have personally witnessed nurses walking into a room and just start undressing a male pt without even talking to them with the pt demanding what was gong on., nurses wheeling PT's down the hall nude after a shower, PT's laying exposed on gurney's in he hall with visitors everywhere. I even heard one little girl giggling at a nude young boy getting examined in the examining room with the curtains open. I have witnessed all of the situations that ImaWondering experienced and more, sadly to say. I think it is high time we address the issues brought up instead of defending the situation. We are not cars in a garage being worked on, just because you lost your modesty when you gave birth , or because you have gotten use to your job and all its nuances does not mean the PT feel the same way, in fact I can assure you it is exactly the opposite. It is appalling the total, disregard a lot of nurses have for the PTs they are called on the care for. I am sorry, I know nurses work very have extremely hard jobs and do not get the pay, regard, or respect for a lot of what they do-they are the unsung everyday hero's, no question about it-but hey, this kind of attitude really has got to stop-seriously.

Just a comment ladies: I realize that your all saying its clinical and all, but for the PT is is extremely embarrassing and all your explanations do not reflect the extreme discomfort , physically and emotionally, having someone you don't know see you when your the most vulnerable. I could care less if your offended that I may request a male nurse, or a lady requests a female nurse, it's already a nightmare being there without having to be put on public display " Just because you have seen it all" does not make us feel any better about it.It is just a simple request! Taking some extra time to make a PT comfortable is after all the civilized thing to do. For the PT, many times it will be the first and last time they are in this situation and the lasting impressions one has can be traumatic, enough so that any further vistits to a Doctor can be curtailed or ignored. Emotional trauma is just as real as physical trauma. I know ther are several nurses that will say , well its the PT's choice if they want to leave or not, take it or leave i t, if that is the case you just may be in the wrong profession, after all, you are the PT's advocate after all, no matter what your personal feeling on the subject are.

AHem: well I may have painted my comments with a broader brush then I intended. From what I have read recently, there's a lot of cathing that does not need to be done and in those circumstances it is being discontinued. To many Doctors have been ordering foley's when it just is not necessary.I am sure you would all agree there are several situations when it is just not necessary.