headsup

Huh? You lost me. Anyways. I don't have a crystal ball. I wish I did because then I could just go buy own private little island somewhere and pay the doctors to come to ME! At any rate, seeing as I do not have the gift of foresight, I can only go by what has been done and what is being done by other countries and assume that similar results would happen in the US if a similar system was adopted. But bottom line is that I am actually quite done with this subject. I only came on here to dispute the blatant myths that were being spread about Canada and their healthcare in general. I hope the US gets it together and finds a solution. I don't know what it is. But I hope it will be a fair one... I also want to mention that the US that I know and love is one of compassion and interest in the fellow man. I have found that the US has become more and more 'all about me' and less 'all about us'. We, none of us, live in a bubble. I have seen the hardening of America and it grows harder and harder every year and it saddens me. America has grown great because it was a nation that invested in its people. All of them. Now it only seems to invest in the rich. When I go back home to California, I find the people are changing. More suspicious. Less, well, human. When I say hi to the person behind the 7-11 counter, they are suprised I even spoke to them, or they are suspicious. And after I mention I am from Canada, the smiles and the America I know so well comes out. I find that Canada is a kinder nation with everyone fairly willing to give the next person the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps it is the feeling of caring for the fellow man. Perhaps it is something else. What is happening to to the American heart? I will end my participation in this thread with two quotes from my most favorite person - the great, late Winston Churchill. One is for Darren - "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind, and won't change the subject." And one for the world at large... "We make a living by what we get, we make a life by what we give" And no, I am not talking about all you wonderful people who volunteer as many of us do. I am saying that this philosophy as a nation is being lost. And that is sad.

Also - in thinking more about it, I realized that WHY on earth would the taxes for the US citizens be higher with a UHS? Here: http://www.bcbs.com/betterknowledge/mcrg/chap1/ch1_Slide_1.html The US spends more of its GDP on healthcare than anyone in the world. Perhaps...just PERHAPS your taxes might even GO DOWN if you went universal!!!!:uhoh3::uhoh3: Think about that!

But this is proven not to be true. In over a dozen countries. In fact, the US has the highest cost per capita of ANY country in healthcare. Therefore your argument is unfounded. Using your argument, I would say that considering the worldwide statistics, the current US healthcare system is the most expensive, wasteful system there is...

Maybe. But more importantly, this will encourage PREVENTION. How many people do not go see their practitioner or health care provider because they *think* they can muddle through and don't want to pay out of pocket...yet later they develop more serious problems. Problems which might have been taken care of faster and cheaper in the first place??

Sounds good. I am tired of repeating myself anyways

NO NO NO!!! I don't mean that at all. What I mean is that basic education up to 12th grade is free to everyone regardless of citizenship or economic level. College and universities are not free...(although I could make a really good case that I think they should be to those that keep their grade point level at a certain minimum....but that is another thread...!!) So I was drawing (in my mind) a comparison between education (as a right) and health care (as a right).

I see this person does math like you do. He does not pay 53% of his wage. I have told you ad nauseum how it works. Here is the wage grid for BC nurses. After 2009 they are expected to renegotiate and brand spanking new nurses are expected to START at $30 per hour. http://bcnu.org/contracts_services/provincial_contract/pdf/WagesLTC-case-managers-inserted2.2007-date-of.01chgd-to-2008.pdf Also - here is the wages for 2005 all across Canada for Nurse 1 - that means an entry level nurse right out of college (Canada requires all RNs to have a 4 year BSN). http://www.arnnl.nf.ca/PDF/Fee%20Increase/Comparison_of_Current_Salaries_and_Licensure_Fees_across_Canada.pdf Keep in mind that this was 2 years ago, and most unions have negotiated for annual wage increases. This person must have been working a very long time ago. Very long to make that low of a wage. And then gas would have been much less than $1 per litre. Sounds like someone is simply trying to justify their position by making false claims. That seems to go around quite a bit on this thread...

You make an extremely good point. What level do we consider necessary for good health? I thought about this for a while. And then I realized that education is considered a right. Everyone must be educated by law up until (I believe) 10th grade regardless of social status or ability to pay. And it is completely free to everyone - citizen or not. However, college, university, trade schools, etc must be paid for by the student. These are considered above the basic right to education. This being the case, perhaps health care could be in the same - basic, prevention, necessary, traditional medicine. Anything extra is out of pocket. I Honestly feel that your health is even more important than education (and I REALLY believe in education). There are a lot of people that are successful and have never gone past 10th grade. But a person that is sick, or afraid to see a doctor for the expense of it all, or is having their wages garnished to try to pay off medical bills doesn't go anywhere...

You know. I think it is great that you love your system. I think it is great that you love your country...so do I, as I am American as well. However. I do not understand why you keep fabricating things in order to prove your own points. Here is a website. http://www.cra-arc.gc.ca/tax/individuals/faq/taxrates-e.html I use it to double check all my employees wages at year end. For a wage of $48,000 the average tax rate is 23% AFTER prov and fed. (In BC. It is considerably lower in Alberta) For a wage of $130,000 the tax rate is 30.7% after everything. Perhaps you can try to plug in numbers. Then you take the final amount of tax owing and divide it by the total income at the end. That will give you the percentage. There is no dispute that Canadians pay higher taxes. But not much higher. And the numbers you are throwing out there are completely ridiculous. I don't know why you are being so thick about this, but really, do the math. It is ok to say that you love what your country is doing and the way it is going. Really. You do not have to disparage other countries to support your own opinions.

I would do a poll on this, but I do not know how to - or maybe you need to be a premium member. At any rate, I would like to hear some discussion on whether you feel health care is a right or not. I personally do.

Where is she and what surgery does she need? For an elective surgery there can indeed be a wait. Especially if it is for knee or hip replacement.

It has already been explained in several different ways that Darren is using the marginal tax rate (the amount of tax you have to pay on anything over $118,000 in Canada, $311,000 in the US) over the entire income. Further, those who make over the $311,000 in the US pay the lowest marginal tax rates in the world. So by using your example, Darren, you state that you pay marginal tax rates. So you pay 35% on your entire income?? Of course not. Neither do Canadians.

Bully for you! I am glad you get such cheap insurance. Obviously the system is working for you. I am glad that you are so lucky. At least some people are happy. I pay $80 per month for a family of 4 in Canada. And contrary to popular belief... (I am in Canada right now - until I go to San Diego in the fall for 6 weeks to visit family/work) I can see my family doctor today if I felt I needed to. And if I really was urgent but did not want to bother with hospital ER and my doctor was closed, there are a plethoria of walk-in clinics right there, ready to serve me....all for free. For specialists there might be a few weeks wait time, unless I was critical, then I get in right away (like my employee with the brain tumour). Again, my point is that we are already paying. Universal healthcare would not necessarily mean higher anything. But as I said, I am not certain it would work in the US. Too many people want to profit off illness to prevent it...

Yes, but these people are ALREADY taking your 'hard earned cash'. No one is ever completely turned away. They then go on medicaid which pays all their costs at a highly inflated medical rate. Don't you understand?? The current system uses your hard earned cash inefficiently. It makes the middle class or the working poor pay and pay for their health care. The non-working or illegals get Medicaid. And the wealthy, well, they can afford it anyways. How much per month are you paying for health insurance... which then tells you where to go and who to see? If you took that money and halved it, I'll bet that would be all your quota for Universal would be...

I have not seen whatever it is you are talking about, and I really do not wish to. If it was the same as the other website, I would have the same opinion. The website mentioned is crass, venemous and - as far as I can tell - a vitriolic diatribe against a person who the administrator intensely dislikes. ANY argument would have much more credibility if they cite a credible source. And as for Universal healthcare. I just won't bother with you. You seem to forget that it is thriving and alive and well in many, many countries that rank much higher than the US's miserable 37th place in the World Health statistics. I am not saying it is perfect. I am not saying that it would work in the US. But it DOES work.

You know, I don't have much of a dog in this fight, and I certainly am ambivilent about Michael Moore. However, to quote that venemous, vitriolic website as a source of any kind shows an appalling lack of character and judgement.

Where do you get your 'facts' from?? There is no point throwing out random statements unless you can back them up. Further, what makes you think the US 'has the best healthcare in the world'? The World Health Organization puts the US at 37th place. Further, the US has wait time problems. And finally, where on earth did you hear that if you are suspected of a brain tumour you must wait 6 months?? One of our employees had headaches and was not feeling well - dizzy spells. He was booked immediately after seeing a doctor...and yes. He has a malignant brain tumour. It is a very sad situation. He is only 52 with teenagers in the house. I do not know what the answer is for the United States, but disparaging other systems that DO work well and pretending that the US system is the BEST when it most obviously is not, is just plain denial.

Perhaps Darren does not understand what the term marginal tax rate means. Let me explain... That is the top percentage of your wage. For the US, anything over $311,000 is currently at 35% (One of the lowest over the years. Funny, at times it was 90%!!! I think maybe you guys should speak to the politicians about that. I certainly will by proxy anyways. It seems like the rich don't have to pay much more than the average citizen. When did THAT happen??? You mean Paris Hilton doesn't pay much more in percentage of taxes than I do???) For Canada, anything over $118,000 is taxed at 43.70% for BC. (For Alberta it is considerably less) So for the first $118,000 you get taxed at approximately 24%, as you go up, the amounts over each braket gets charged more. Understand now? The little tax free day that you posted was the last day it takes to work off ALL taxes, even if you are a millionaire. The average citizen would have worked it off MUCH earlier, for both the US and Canada.... Maybe you need to take a little course in economics.

Well, I couldn't get over 35% unless I put in over $300,000 per year income. What exactly do you do for a living?? At any rate, you are not using the calculator correctly somehow. As I have repeatedly said. I live here. I work here. I do payroll for my husband's business. I know whereof I speak. You on the other hand are just using online calculators incorrectly. And as for waitlists, didn't another poster put up an article about how Americans are experiencing waitlists also??? In fact my mother in law (in Ca.) was just complaining last week about how she cannot get a doctor's appoint. for almost two weeks. At any rate, I am done with the tax thing. I have given you cold hard facts. I have shown you numerous websites that state what the average tax rate is not only for Canada but for the world. And yet you cling to your claims. Go for it.

Ohhh, I don't think that the US has a monopoly on THAT! :angryfire :angryfire :angryfire

Even better from our friend Wikipedia. In the middle of the page a beautiful, handy, dandy chart.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax So there. At any rate, it has gotta hurt living single in Germany, Italy, France or Belgium!!! :trout:

oops. need to provide a link...

Here is an excellent website that gives tax rates on every country in the world. Surprise, surprise...the US is NOT the lowest in the world. in fact, on the upper end....it is EVEN HIGHER than CANADA!!!:idea: http://www.worldwide-tax.com/

You just don't get it. For some reason you have a real problem with accepting that Canada is not enslaving its people. Several people have gotten on here, who actually live and work in Canada, and tell you that your 47% is blatantly wrong. You absolutely refuse to listen. You must not understand how to work these tax calculators. For BC, an income of $48000 translates to $9566 per year, which is 19.93%. In addition, there is an extra 4% for CPP (pension - maximum annual contribution $1903 for 2006) and 2% for EI (unemployment- for a maximum annual contribution of $712 for 2006). I KNOW this since I just finished reporting payroll for our 5 employees. This translates to a maximum tax rate including all pension, employment and fed and prov (state) of roughly 22%. You can make up all the things you want, but I live here, pay employees and recieve a paycheck myself. NO CANADIAN PAYS 47% TAX RATE. Get it???? :trout: But this DID get me looking into my home state and what I paid back when I lived there, and what people are currently paying. So I did a little online calculating (hey, it is a rainy Sunday so why not...) In the US your federal taxes would be $6236. Canada they are $6757. For a wage of $48,000 state taxes would be... British Columbia, Canada provincial taxes are $2810 California - $2335 Total for living in British Columbia, Canada - $9567 Total for living in California, US - $8571 (This is without any deductions in either country, or write-offs. It is simply a base tax rate for a single person with no dependents. In the US, you can write off personal mortgage interest. In Canada you cannot, which definitely makes a difference if you are a home owner. I am not an accountant, so I imagine all the write-offs, deductinos, dependents, etc., etc. will make the numbers very different on both sides.) I realize that some states do not have state tax withholdings. But in glancing through the state tax rate, they average around $2000 a year for the described income. So that would make the tax rates fairly comparable!!! :eek: :eek: I was actually shocked. I had been hearing so much about how Canadians are paying more, that I even started to actually believe it. After doing research, I am suprised that the rates are so comparable...

Yes, DarrenWright - The sky is GREEN the sky is GREEN.... have you ever really looked at the sky??? Sheesh. I don't know why you have to keep making things up in order to justify your claims. Maybe you need to look at things a little more objectively.