Medic15251

They require you to be licensed as an RN to practice as one here as well. Same with medics. To practice as a medic you have to be licensed as one. Medics here are not practicing as RN's in the ER. They are practicing as medics in house, but as we have mentioned before there is much overlap in the two jobs. I guess a good analogy might be a np and a pa. While they function in much the same way and have much overlap in their jobs, the training is very different. Much like an rn and pm.

I guess that is where we differ on opinions. I don't see it as an unlicensed personnel being allowed to function as an rn. I see it as a licensed medic being taught how to take what they already are licensed to do and apply it in house rather than in the field.

Traumanurse let me refresh your memory on what was said in the other thread. I never said that a paramedic is qualified to function as an rrt. I said: All I said is that there is some overlap in the skills and care both professions provide. I also didn't say that a pm is qualified to work as a nurse either. Emergency nursing is one very small part of nursing. Emergency training is solely what a pm is focused on in pm school though. With that being said I do think that a pm could be transitioned to working in a hospital in an ed. I think if they were given an appropriate orientation and additional classes through the hospital they could function in a role similar to that of an rn in the ed only. In my state this is being done. It's one answer to a nursing shortage in the emergency department. Here medics are allowed to take pt's, complete an assessment, triage, do education, give the same meds rn's give, and do all of the same skils they are taught to do in school. This differs slightly between different facilities. I also never said you were from the backwoods. I would encourage you to go back and actually read my posts. I said I was glad I didn't live in your backwards state. You mentioned that pm's in your state can't even hang drips in the field. Given the training that a pm goes through this does in fact seem backwards to me. If a pm is trained on how to deliver a specific type of care then is not able to this seems like backwards logic that would lower the level of care a pt would receive. I am not trying to rehash what was said in another thread. I just don't accept your half hearted apology with misrepresented statements.

I think medic 09 pretty summed up why you are wrong on that point. I can't break this subject down to a simpler level for you to grasp. As I have said. In MO where I live, paramedics are allowed to do the same skills and have the same job description from their employer (with one or two minor discrepencies) as an RN. This is the result of many rural areas and a nursing shortage. I chose to go to rn school partly because I wanted to make more money for doing the same job. Why do I get the strange feeling you are one of those people who is constantly talking about stuff all the time that you know nothing about? Here is a link to the MO department of health and senior services:http://www.dhss.mo.gov/EMS/Faq.html From their site: Can I work in Missouri with just a National Registry Card? No, Missouri law requires all levels of Emergency Medical Technicians to be licensed. This is both Basic and Paramedics. It does not matter where an EMT is employed; they must be licensed to perform as an EMT. Paramedics are licensed in MO. Oh, I read it....I read it and laughed! First you claimed you learned over 7000 drugs in nursing school in under two years. Then when I pointed out how ludacris that was you doubled back and said you really only learned 3500. Next when I pointed out that current drug books don't even have nearly that amount you make outrageous claims of me being on a high horse. So which story are you going with? You don't have to make outrageous claims to make friends!

Nope. My state values ems. As I said before, it's common here for medics to work in ER's and function essentially the same as an RN...doing the same skills, triaging, taking pt's, doing education etc. Medics here are actually allowed to do more skills than RN's. It's not that I want to practice above my scope (my scope is already broader than the rn's here) I simply want to be paid better for doing the same work! Thank you for the good luck wishes. Again, I am sorry you live in such a backwards state. I'm not sure what you teach in your state, but here we understand that time is muscle and if we can re-perfuse in the field instead of waiting until we get to the hospital then why not right? Our medics here are taught how to diagnose an MI. We carry the same pumps they use in house and do nitro, dopamine, lidocaine drips etc. When we do inter-facility transports who knows what other drugs might be hanging. Some of the EMS services in my state are doing trials of using troponin labs in the field. We have the capability of sending 12 leads over our cell phones. Field thrombolytics are also in use by some of the services in my state. And here if we can not get an IV, we carry IO guns or drills to get access. I still call bs on this. There is around 1700 pages in my nursing drug book. Some of these drugs obviously take up more than one page, meaning there is less than 1700 drugs in the book. You are claiming that you learned about 3500 drugs in nursing school. Could you please explain how you learned about 1800 additional drugs that are not even known to the current nursing drug books?

I agree 100% with that but also feel that with the appropriate orientation and additional training that paramedics could be utilized in an er functioning in a role very similar to a RN. Then remind me to never have an MI in your state! Wow! An ADN program is typically 2 years of school. That's 730 days x 10 drugs a day. That comes out to 7300 drugs you memorized. I am completing nursing school myself and have not memorized 7300 drugs. My nursing drug book only has about 2000 pages in it. Could you please tell us what program you attended that has such high standards?

Really? Well I have gone to paramedic school and speak from experience. When and where did you go to medic school? I totally disagree. This may have been true 12-15 years ago, but not now. Each week in paramedic school we were given 10 drugs. We had to hand write drug cards for each drug listing type, indications, contraindications, cautious uses, dosages, routes etc. These were not limited to code drugs but included various types of medications even herbs and supplements. My class was 18 months long so you can imagine at 10 drugs a week how many drugs we learned about. Medics do it all the time. For instance a medic has to know how to diagnose an MI based on clinical presentation and a 12 lead. What would happen if a medic just blindly hung a nitro drip because a pt had CP without first doing a 12 lead? What if it was an infarct on the right ventricle? The pt would most likely die. Medics diagnose every day. Nurses do it as well, but generally on a smaller scale.

What a shame to waste such valuable resources. I am glad the state I work in values their medics to allow them to function with more autonomy in the ED setting. Here, medics are licensed and work off of protocols or doctor's orders. What state do you work in that has such disregard for their medical professionals? Again you would be wrong and would have lost your life savings. ABG's were taught in my medic program along with anatomy and physiology and disease processes. We also spent many clinical hours in the resp dept.

The "knowledge base" you draw from in an ED as RN is hardly taught in nursing school. You learn theories in nursing school. You learn how to be an ED RN mostly on the job and during an orientation time. Doing clinicals with an RN in an ED is only a portion of why a medic is qualified to work in one. Believe it or not, medics also go to school and have to pass a licensing exam! If your demeanor in the ED is anything like your smug, condescending demeanor on this board, then I would bet you probably belittled and intimidated this medic student. It may have been so in the past, but the medics that are coming out of today's programs have a good understanding of not just how to do something but also why they are doing it. You have to understand that a paramedic is a bit of a jack of all trades and a master of none. That being said, today's medics are being taught how to do many of the things RT's do. Intubations, RSI's, surgical airways, end tital co2 capnography, vent settings, CPAP and BiPAP administration, breathing treatments, etc.

You bring up a good point. EMS is in it's infancy compared to nursing. Until an associates degree is required for entry into the field and EMS has a bigger voice in government, it will still be viewed as more of a vocation than a profession. I think we can find some common ground that a paramedic is currently an expanding roll that will most likely evolve quite a bit in the years to come. They should not be viewed as a replacement for nurses but as simply one answer of many to a nursing shortage that will only get worse in the years to come as the baby boomers age. I see what you are saying, but ED nurses focus mainly on the very same things that medic students are trying to get checked off in skill wise. ED nurses have very limited time with their patients. It's been my experience that a typical day in an ed for an rn is very technical in nature. The focus is not so much on a "nursing care plan" and moving the patient from sickness to wellness. It seems more focused on assessing the situation, stabilizing and treating the pt, then moving them to the appropriate place (be it discharged to home or admitted to a specific unit). Correct me if I am wrong but these are all technical skills. Much like a paramedic would do.

Then we have a fundamental disagreement. It has been my observation that traditional adn programs in my area put their students through a couple of shifts in an ed. They basically just observe and might attempt an iv start or pass some po meds. The math is not difficult. It comes down to what is more, both time wise and experience wise... Two shifts of observation time only or 200 hours of practicing assessments, pushing meds, starting iv's, intubating, doing pt education, etc. To me the answer is clear. Paramedic school provides more clinical experience that is more relevant to working in an ED than nursing school does. This is why many hospitals won't even let new grads work in their ED. They want them to get "work experience" on the floor first. Those hospitals that are willing to hire a new grad do extensive orientation programs for a year or so before they turn the nurse loose.

I'm not saying that a brand new paramedic would be 100% proficient working in an ED in a nursing role. What I am saying is that this medic would be better prepared than a brand new nurse. Of course there would be some minimal, additional training needed. Then you need to open your eyes. As I said earlier I spent 200 hours of clinicals in an ED. It is probably typically more than that now. The training in the majority of states now is all standardized, meaning that a medic student in Wisconsin would have a comparative program to a student in Tennessee. This is compared to a traditional ADN RN who might do two shifts in the ED of "observation time". I guess what I am trying to say is that paramedic school prepares a medic to be a competent and capable medic on day one, while nursing school teaches more theories and basics that leaves a new grad rn needing an extensive amount of orientation time and on the job training before they are prepared to function independently. This is why many hospitals offer new grad programs to their rn's that combine class time and clinical time that typically last up to a year where as a new medic might have 2-4 weeks riding as a third person or a double medic before they are turned loose. Again the two professions are very different, but they do overlap and have similarities. With the right additional training a medic can become a great nurse or vice versa.

Quite the opposite. Many medics would never want to work in house. FOr myself though, I enjoyed working as a medic in an ed, but didn't think it was fair that I was doing the same job but getting paid less for it. That's why I went to nursing school. It sounds like you have a large chip on your shoulder there bud! I would wager that many of the medics that post on this board are also rn's. The two jobs, while quite different, are very much overlapping and related. Where are you getting that term? Last time I checked EMT stood for emergency medical technician not prehospital. The fact is that medics are being utilized in many areas of medical care such as in house code teams, ed's, anesthesia departments, urgent care's, etc. Dinnith88 maybe it's time to start challenging some of your archaic beliefs and practices.

I have to disagree. Most programs today require a great deal of time in the ed. Much of a medic student's time in an ed is spent following an rn. They see and experience first hand what an rn does in an ed.

See, I think they can have more than just an assistant role. I think they should be able to take patients and function essentially the same as an rn in an ed setting.