Discussion

CRNE question

Oct 28, 200817 yr

I have a question about the CRNE with regard to Temporary workers visas.

Does anyone know if you come as a temporary worker to canada if you're expected to take the first available CRNE or do they allow you time to prepare for it?

And would I be leaving a bad impression if one of my questions during an interview (its probably gonna be a phone interview when I get that far) if I ask about pay amount. The only reason I would ask such a question is to prepare myself for living expense (rent, food, etc.) I dont want to rent an $800 apt if I can only afford a $ 500 apt. I expect to make living arrangements etc before landing in Canada. Any comments or experiences?

Who were you best resources on cell phone plans, internet connections, etc. basically local living. I'm considering finding someone off of craigslist whose looking for a roommate since its seems the best option because I'll be living with someone whose familiar with the area etc. Wht do you guys think. I'll be moving to Canada as a single female in her mid 20's.

I've seen that each province have immigrations services to help people adjust etc. How helpful is it really?

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Oct 29, 200817 yr

Experts

Well, since the CRNE is only offered three times a year, and the application to write has to be in about 3 months before the sitting date, and the assessment process to even get permission to write takes several months, you should have ample time to prepare.

Asking about pay won't be necessary exactly because you should already have looked at the cross country comparison of wages and benefits that's posted on the home page of this forum as a sticky and perhaps had a look at the provincial collective agreement if it's been posted on the Web. But you can ask how to arrange portability of your previous experience hours to move up the pay scale ASAP.

There are other threads about cell phone providers and the rest somewhere here. Finding a room mate on Craigslist might work out, or it might not. Be careful.

Oct 29, 200817 yr

Author

thank you jan. i had not looked at the contents page and didnt realize there was a section for gn pay! thanks for pointing that out. well, i'll be going to canada with no experience and my areas of interest are ciu or pcu or possibly a cardiac unit. is this difficult when the nurse is an ien with no experience but willing to take any courses to get on those units?

heres what a recruitement said in a email to me, can you explain what its suggests or means?

"our foreign workers are hired outside of the competition process under a letter of understanding with united nurses of alberta."

to me this statement makes me think that i wont get paid on an equal pay scale as other canadian nurses. am i right? i've read around here and i've seen an ien mention as low as $15 an hour. that works out to be a little over $2000 (depending on days a week worked 3 or 4).

with respect to the crne, i've already applied to the board of nursing in canada and all my documents here have been released to canada. its only a matter for the board to receive and process them and assess me as eligible. i've looked at the test dates for 2009 already. i'll be preparing with a lippincott book and then when i get to canada buy the review book from cna. too late you think? you recommend getting it immediately? its pricey to ship it. the book costs like $72 but after shipping costs are added, its almost $300. but i'm prepared to purchase it if yall suggest its essential to begin with the cna review book. i'll take the learn after i've felt i've studied and feel a bit prepared to assess my level of success.

i hear you about craigslist. i told my mom my intentions and she about freaked, and started recounting all the horror stories. its my only option if i want to be prepared with housing when i get there. any suggestions?

Oct 29, 200817 yr

You can sit the CRNE at a time to suit you in Alberta (although I think it has to be within your 1st year) I can't speak for other provinces. As Jan said, it's only sat 3 times a year so you don't get many options on that. In Alberta the temp license lasts 6 months but you can renew it if needs be. Although I believe there are some stipulations re hours worked if you do that. It's all on the CARNA website, as it probaly is for other Provinces.

Prep books are fine, The on-line test gives you some idea but be warned the questions are way trickier than the books or on-line test have, so make sure you're as prepared as possible. Most regions have some kind of prep classes, so you could get into those once you're here. They often get full fast, so early research would be a good thing.

The CNA has a problem with it's shipping fees page. If you send an email to the book shop, via their contact form, they will sort it out. having said that I got mine form a university in Canada, It was Queens University but now I can't remember which Province that was. However, I do know it was on the early Google pages when I typed in a search for the book. Also Chapters Canada will ship, but it takes a few weeks.

You get paid as a grad nurse to start, with your hours from your country recognised (but that takes a while to sort out, although they will backdate the difference.) Once you pass CRNE you'll be paid as an RN with any service recognition included as well. So yes, you'll get paid the same as your Canadian counterparts who have the same years experience as you. Again, that's Alberta. All the info should be on any contract you sign, if it's not, don't sign it! The UNA has a pretty water-tight agreement that you will be given - it's plenty thick but the most important pages are at the end - the pay :-D

You can usually get up to 3 months accomodation sorted by the hospital here, in Calgary at least, that gives you a chance to get sorted & get a feel for the land. They will also pay your 1st months rent up to $2100 max, if you go the private route. your recruiter should provide you with info like that for where you're going so that you can make an informed decision. I suggest you get back on to him/her & get the answers you seek.

Oct 29, 200817 yr

Experts

Thanks for the first-hand help, RGN1.

Because you'll be coming here as a new nurse with no experience, you may find it hard to get hired into a specialty area right off the hop. You'll be competing with other new nurses, including those who were educated in Canada (despite the Letter of Understanding with UNA, and I'll explain that next). Having said that, it's not impossible, just harder. CIU (I'm assuming that's a clinical investigations unit) will probably be closed to you for some time because those sorts of jobs here are highly sought-after and very competitive. As for taking courses to prepare you to work in some of the more acute specialty areas, they'll be all for that, but they won't give you time off to do the courses (you'll have to trade away shifts to get the time free), they won't pay for the courses (they might pay you as if you'd worked those days but 8 hours only) and they might not even hire you without them. (In Capital Health anyway.)

The Letter of Understanding re: Recruitment and Retention Initiatives has a section on "Extraordinary Temporary Positions for International Recruitment". I won't type out the whole thing here because it's very wordy and can be boiled down to this: 1) those hired under the initiative are for a specific job of more than 12 months but less than 24; 2) these positions are specifically created for IENs and will be restricted to those authorized to work under this program; 3) positions created will be for areas of high need due to vacancies, service enhancements (opening more beds), high relief for disability leaves or vacations that can't otherwise be filled; 4) anyone hired thus will be completely covered by the UNA collective agreement; 5) temporary permit holders will have their pay adjusted once they've passed the CRNE to the level their experience entitles them to and that the whole process be evaluated and reviewed regularly to ensure it's doing what it was intended to do. Another thing set out in this letter is that NO other regular or temporary employee will have hours taken away to allow for the temporary worker to work.

Because of immigration regulations, IENs must work full time hours to remain in the country. Full time hours here depend on which hospital you work for. All but the University have 36.81 hours per week averaged out over one complete cycle of the shift schedule (which could be four, six or even twelve weeks) and the U has 38.75 hours a week averaged out. The U also has to work more hours in order to move up to the next increment on the pay scale. The schedule is supposed to give roughly equal pay cheques but in some areas, that doesn't happen. Our unit has 20 twelve hour shifts in six weeks and so the cheques should be based on seven, seven and six shifts, but as I say it doesn't always work out that way.

You may be able to find a room mate by asking around on your unit once you get here; you will have some time in a hotel (probably) before you have to be in some more permanent accommodations. I work with an IEN who did that and has had no difficulties.

Oct 29, 200817 yr

Author

"You can usually get up to 3 months accomodation sorted by the hospital here, in Calgary at least, that gives you a chance to get sorted & get a feel for the land. They will also pay your 1st months rent up to $2100 max, if you go the private route. your recruiter should provide you with info like that for where you're going so that you can make an informed decision. I suggest you get back on to him/her & get the answers you seek."

Wow, THANKS RGN1 and JanFRN! That was so helpful!

Well the recruiter from Capital Health forwarded me to Mercan Recruit because apparently they process all applications for employment from North American international candidates.

The stuff i quoted above is what I seek. Accomadations is important to me and I've heard that they do that but when I asked the recruiter she forwarded me to the capital health site and canada health service site. I think i shouldnt have said she could refer me to resources to find the information but i'm gonna make it a point to recontact her and ask her about what you advised me to do. I'm gonna do it now actually! Oh and when you say they pay 1st months rent, does that mean finding accomadations is left up to the IEN? Oh and when you said "go the private route" what did you mean?

JanFRN i apologize, i meant ICU, not CIU! But i get your point and thanks for the information because I really want to work in a specialty area! Tho i'm not apposed to Med/Surg if thats what it takes to start off with while I get certifications I need to get where I want.

JanFRN, You stated that "4) anyone hired thus will be completely covered by the UNA collective agreement; 5) temporary permit holders will have their pay adjusted once they've passed the CRNE to the level their experience entitles them to"

With point number 4, what does the it mean to be covered under the UNA collective agreement (meaning same as canadian nurses etc?) and with point 5, did you mean that as a temporary license holder, I will be entitled to GN pay as stated on the sticky right? Basically being hired outside the competition process means that as an IEN, I will be hired in shortage areas and not interrupt a Canadian nurses right to first pick in shifts and hours of employment etc. right? But because I'll be an IEN, I'll HAVE to get at least full time hours to fulfill work visa status, so i wouldnt have to worry about getting hours while i'm there! right?! Whew! I'm game!

Oct 31, 200817 yr

Author

Thank you for explaining things to me! I wrote to the recruiter I've been corresponding with and she was great about answering my questions and she cleared it all up for me! Every question! Without yalls help, I wouldnt have known what direction to turn or what questions to ask!

Thanks so much for taking the time and reading and responding to me, I appreciate it and I cant wait to be apart of the Canadian Health Care System!

Oct 31, 200817 yr

Experts

JanFRN, You stated that "4) anyone hired thus will be completely covered by the UNA collective agreement; 5) temporary permit holders will have their pay adjusted once they've passed the CRNE to the level their experience entitles them to"
With point number 4, what does the it mean to be covered under the UNA collective agreement (meaning same as canadian nurses etc?) and with point 5, did you mean that as a temporary license holder, I will be entitled to GN pay as stated on the sticky right? Basically being hired outside the competition process means that as an IEN, I will be hired in shortage areas and not interrupt a Canadian nurses right to first pick in shifts and hours of employment etc. right? But because I'll be an IEN, I'll HAVE to get at least full time hours to fulfill work visa status, so i wouldnt have to worry about getting hours while i'm there! right?! Whew! I'm game!

Point #4 means exactly what it says; all nurses employed by a facility covered under a collective agreement with the United Nurses of Alberta have the same rights and responsibilities unless modified by local conditions. That means that IENs can't be forced to work permanent nights on weekends and every single statutory holiday, they can't be scheduled to come of a night shift and return to work the following day, they are eligible for extended health care benefits, market adjustment bonuses and so on, whatever a nurse is entitled to or required to do under the CA applies to IENs equally. There are some things that are affected by seniority, such as vacation scheduling and selection of lines on the master rotation, and as an IEN under a temporary work permit, you'd be at the bottom of the list unless someone else (Canadian or IEN) was hired after you.

IENs initially start on the pay scale as GNs until the results of the CRNE are back. If they've passed, once they've paid their registration fees, they'll be moved up the pay scale to the level that matches their previous work experience (provided they have suitable proof of it).

Being hired outside the usual selection process does mean that you're hired into an area where staffing is seriously short despite the usual measures to improve it. (This can mean that the unit is a really unpleasant place to work though, causing the staff shortages in the first place. Word does get around about toxic workplaces.) Temporary work permits are issued for a specific employer, so if the unit you're in isn't a good place to work, you might find yourself stuck because of the terms of your permit and the (lack of) availability of other positions within the same employer's worksites. Be wary of that. The comment about "no regular or temorary employee shall experience reduced work hours as a result of this initiative" means that the employer can't reduce someone else's hours to ensure that you get the number you have to have to keep your work permit. There has to be sufficient hours available so that no one else loses pay or seniority because you've been hired . (That isn't a big issue right now, because most places are so short staffed that people are working a ton of overtime.) So an example is that I'm a full time employee on Unit X, where you're going to work. The unit experiences a slowdown in admissions and now there is no need for as many nurses as before. The employer can't cut your hours because of immigration rules so they tell me that I'm now going to be working part time. NO. They can't do that. They have to continue to give me full time hours unless I choose to decrease them. Does that make sense? You as an IEN MUST be employed full time, but they can't take my hours away and give them to you. You're also going to be able to work overtime if there are hours available; there's a process for dividing up the OT between "eligible" staff, whereby the casuals are approached first (because they're paid straight time), then part timers who are not on a designated day off (because they're paid straight time), then full timers then part timers on designated days off because they're paid double time for all hours worked. There's usually so much of it that it's whomever says they'll work that gets the time.

Oct 31, 200817 yr

Author

Thanks, you definitely explained it well. I get what outside competition process means and and I now understand pay rate when an IEN has not passed CRNE yet.

I have a quick question. If an IEN is supposed to work full time, why would she CHOOSE to work less if she is on a visa that requires that she work full time to remain in status? Wouldnt that be a violation of her status? You referred to "the U" in a previous message. What are you refering to?

Oct 31, 200817 yr

Experts

You would be surprised how stressful working as a nurse in Alberta can be. Full time shift work is very restrictive on one's life and the actual work is becoming very physically heavy and psychologically draining without resulting in the satisfaction most of us expect to feel for a job well done. Shift work is a given on most units, the 'cushy' weekday 8-4 spots are usually snapped up by those with the most seniority. New grads come onto the unit full of excitement and enthusiasm, feeling like they own the world because they've started a career as a registered nurse. They have huge student loans to repay and want to get their lives started. It doesn't take long for reality to set in and they're desperate to decrease their hours. Many of the new grads who have come to work on my unit in the last three years are now either working part time or casual, or have left nursing. We have enormous responsibility with no authority and little autonomy. Our workloads are getting heavier every month and nurses are expected to pick up the slack for other disciplines, such as pharmacy, physiotherapy, social work, pastoral care, housekeeping, dietary and clerical because we can do the essential parts of all of those jobs, but none of them can do any part of ours. So why pay for any or all of those around the clock when you've got nurses there? I work a 70% FTE position and I DO NOT work OT.

The U refers to the University of Alberta Hospital.

Nov 3, 200817 yr

I'm FT & am just finishing a set of 6 evenings, straight & I'm exhausted but I've also had a cold this week into the bargain. We have IEN's who are on less than FT & they are still covered by their TWP, I believe that as long as you do .75 you are still counted as fully employed under the terms of the TWP.

I'm contemplating cutting down but right now we need the money as I'm the bread winner at the moment. Once DH gets organised I will be very happy to change!

I think Jan has a harder time than I do though, the day shifts are manic here but the evenings & weekends are manageable. The staff are great too, so that really helps a lot.

They call me for OT a lot but I have always said No too! The only time I'd consider would be an evening in the middle of a few days off!

Nov 3, 200817 yr

You would be surprised how stressful working as a nurse [in Alberta] can be... We have enormous responsibility with no authority and little autonomy. Our workloads are getting heavier every month and nurses are expected to pick up the slack for other disciplines, such as pharmacy, physiotherapy, social work, pastoral care, housekeeping, dietary and clerical because we can do the essential parts of all of those jobs, but none of them can do any part of ours. So why pay for any or all of those around the clock when you've got nurses there?...

I thought this was brilliant (especially the area I bolded)! Despite proscribed standards of practice, the boundaries of job duties can get very fuzzy in the way you describe, especially for the nurse who embraces the full responsibilities of patient advocate.

Though this is a separate thread, I would love for all those nervously awaiting their test results on the "October 2008 CRNE" thread to consider this insight.

Thank you so much for your clarity! Any managers reading this???

Nov 3, 200817 yr

Nursing is pretty hard the world over, the stresses are just weighted differently. The pay here is better in comparison to the costs of living than I got in London, England & I really do like my unit here in Calgary. It's not perfect, I know, but I'm nervously awaiting my results because I truly want to stay.

It's a nicer place for the kids to grow up in & they're really happy at school already. I'm not wearing any rose tinted glasses, I can see the warts & all but on balance there are way more pros to cons. I have yet to meet anyone from the UK who wants to go back (maybe that's 'cos they've gone already!) I've spoken to UK expat patients, people in grocery stores & other nurses & they all prefer it here.

However, I know that I haven't encountered the levels of difficulties on my unit that others do on theirs, so that'll keep me where I am for sure!

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