Dear Gwenith I am really grateful for your reply which shows your years of experience and expertise. I will bring these suggestions forward. One of the disturbing things is of course that the nurses who do this are being taught this at learning institutions and through the example of the neurosugeons on ward rounds. I feel so distressed when as a potentially abusive attempt to elicit a response so often there is no recognition of the time delay for any response and the whole group moves on as the poor patient then flickers an eyelid or the breathing changes or there is another sign which isnt even seen. A young student asked about the time delay and was told, Well if you dont move smartly when your nipple gets twisted that proves there's very little there" ....yike! Thanks again and i really appreciate the wisdom and humanity I have witnessed on this string jw