aubrienora

midwifetobe85, Are you still around? I'm really hoping for an update! Did you end up doing the Frontier program? If so, how is it? I'm graduating with my ADN in December and should hopefully have my BSN within the next year and a half or so. I love, love, love pregnancy and birth, but I really value the natural birth process. I'm just finishing up Maternal Child right now and while I didn't hate it nearly as much as I expected to, it was still a lot more medical than I would have liked. How does the Frontier program compare? I know I eventually want to go the NP route and I would prefer midwifery, but I'm so terrified I will be forced to practice in way I disagree with. Any advice based on your experience?

I need reassurance and/or advice please! I will graduate with my ADN in December. I recently found out I am 5 weeks pregnant and I'm terrified that no one will hire me just to train me and send me on maternity leave. This is my third baby so there will be no hiding that 6 month belly. I've also read that you should wear a business suit to interviews... do they even make maternity business suits? A substantial part of our income now is my GI Bill housing allowance which will stop once I graduate. I will need to find a job right away. Does anyone have experience looking for a job while pregnant? Please tell me there are nursing jobs out there for pregnant new nurses. Any advice to make myself more marketable and make up for that belly? Thank you!

Believe it or not, your opinion of me as a nurse and/or person means very little. I know who I am and I know what kind of of nurse I will be. I think about things differently than most people. I always have and probably always will. This is not the only debate where I am the voice of dissent. I figured out a long time ago that I need to be true to myself and stick to what I believe is right. This school was the right choice for me whether you all like it or not. Again, not everyone's life circumstances are the same. Not everyone is an 18 year old kid fresh out of high school with no responsibility and nothing but time. I needed to be through school and working yesterday. To my knowledge, every place that hires ADNs in this valley hires ITT grads. I've also already identified the BSN program I will most likely attend that certainly will accept my degree (and is regionally and CCNE accredited, for those of you worried). Thanks for your concern about my future. I'm honestly surprised and a bit disappointed that this conversation has come to this. Since any usefulness this conversation may have had is clearly gone, I'm done here. Good luck to you all.

Feel free to go back a few pages and satisfy your curiosity.

What's your point? That IS an accreditation... even if it's not one you particularly like. It's still approved by the BON. The classes are still taught by RNs. I still have to learn the material and pass the NCLEX. I will still have over 600 clinical hours. I can still continue on and get my BSN and go wherever else I want to go from there. Like I said, it is what you make of it, just like everything else in life. The BON obviously has no problems with the program, so your opinion of it means very little to me. Nice try. What I said was that I was aware there was a stigma associated with ITT (in reference to the fact that it is a for profit school. One hospital system in the area is reluctant to hire new ITT grads, supposedly because they are a non-profit and have an issue with the school's for-profit status, but more likely because they are a Magnet hospital and this is an ADN program). To my knowledge, this program does not have a bad reputation and I've encountered zero negativity at clinical sites. Perhaps you have me confused with someone else? I don't believe I ever "spewed" anything anti-science or conspiracy theory... I had no formal healthcare education, but I did still have the ability to read and think logically... and for your information, I re-evaluate all of my beliefs and decisions as they are challenged. Just because I am comfortable with my decision does not mean I never re-think it. I don't know who Dr. Sears dares to be seen with, nor do I care. He took a pro-vaccine position IN THE BOOK, which was loaded with facts and statistics about the diseases, their prevalence, the vaccines for them, the side effects associated with the diseases, etc. I doubt he pulled his vaccine schedule out of thin air, but in either case I didn't use it so I'm not entirely sure what point you are attempting to make.

I didn't create these diseases. Choosing not to vaccinate my children does not CAUSE naturally occurring diseases. Obviously it doesn't help prevent it, but it doesn't cause it either. I don't know what kind of nurse I will be. I will certainly do my best to advise my patients on healthy lifestyle. Eating well and not smoking cannot be compared to injecting oneself with potentially harmful substances... I did take the time. Five years ago. I can't imagine things have changed much. For MY children it makes more sense not to vaccinate at this time. I don't suggest that this is the right choice for everyone, but for my family I believe it is. I wish I could, but that was two laptops ago and 3 or 4 homes ago. I no longer have the references saved and all the books are in storage. I do remember specifically appreciating the book by Dr. Sears. The Vaccine Book, I think. He gave a lot of facts and statistics and used his opinion (pro-vaccine, BTW) sparingly.

Wow. What is frightening is that an RN would resort to personal attacks in any debate. Yes I do attend ITT. It is for profit, but it IS also accredited. Sometimes life throws things (like cheating husbands, divorce, and single parenthood) at you that make things a little more difficult. Not everyone has the luxury of waiting around to get into a traditional program. Yes I will be able to take the NCLEX, and yes, I will pass. This school certainly has its challenges, but the program itself is not bad. As with anything in life, it is what you make it. I apply myself and do very well. Yes, I want to know how much money I can expect to earn. The hope/plan is that my boyfriend (a wonderful, wonderful, man... nothing like the ex) will stay at home with the kids after I graduate. This would be the best arrangement for our family, but would obviously require me to earn enough to support us. I didn't realize that attempting to plan for the future was such a sin. Your attacks on my character speak volumes about yours.

Cute. (:

My child's status will be the cause of nothing... Disease exists... that's the reality of life on this planet. Of course I'm not comfortable with the death of someone's child, but it is IN NO WAY MY FAULT if a child contracts a disease. I am not willing to sacrifice the wellness of MY children for yours. That's not selfishness, that's common sense from an evolutionary standpoint. I'm sorry if that offends you, but I have the right to put the interest of my children above that of others. So do you. If you feel that vaccines are the best choice for your kids, then by all means, vaccinate away. I disagree and will do what is best for MY children because I AM THEIR MOTHER AND THEY ARE MY RESPONSIBILITY.

It does reduce the risk to some extent. There is risk either way... that's life. Not every doctor. The CDC? Yes.

No, no, and not really. There are other causes of joint pain... like vaccination... :) I never claimed it as evidence. I was asked about my vaccination status so I shared that information along with it because inevitably, had I not, you all would have said "See!! You were vaccinated and you're fine!!" Which, by the way, would be anecdote as well if it were true. I never claimed my troubles as evidence of anything. I believe I actually stated that they were not... I am well, thank you. I avoid the triggers for my hives and joint pain and I'm just fine. :)

I have zero respect for Paul Offit. If there was ever a conflict of interest... Paul and his rotavirus vaccine would be it...

I don't have time *right now* as I am a busy mother of two trying to get through school. I promise you I went through all the statistics when I made the decision several years ago. I don't remember the statistics for every disease and vaccine off the top of my head...

Sorry I'm not replying to everyone. I learned a long time ago that being the dissenter in a group such as this makes it impossible to keep up, even if I didn't have a million other things to do. So again, I am not here to debate the effectiveness or safety of vaccines. I've made my decision and I'm comfortable with it. I will, however, reply to this. And I'm sure you'll all hate me... which I'm also ok with. If this happened it would be tragic and my heart would certainly be broken for the parents of that baby. I can't say for certain how I would react, but I highly doubt it would change my position. Unfortunately death is part of life. It is tragic when it happens so early, but I didn't design life... it wasn't my idea. MY responsibility in life is to my children first. YES, everyone else is second to MY children, because they are mine. Is that selfish? I don't think so. I think that's pretty natural for a mother to feel. Maybe it's not the PC thing to say, but it's the truth and it's instinctual. I don't care what statistics you all come up with (I really don't have time to check their accuracy and if they're from the CDC forget it... I trust nothing from them), for MY breastfed-into-toddlerhood/preschool-years children who do not attend daycare and will be homeschooled, the risk of contracting and suffering injury from these diseases is very low. Am I willing to risk the health and safety of my children for the "greater good?" Absolutely not. Does that make me a horrible, selfish person? I don't think so, but you are all entitled to your own opinions and I certainly won't be offended by them. Obviously I care about other people and their children and I want to help them. I will do everything WITHIN REASON to ensure their safety and wellness. I do not believe that sacrificing my own health and that of my family is reasonable. Some have asked about my vaccine status. I am vaccinated to the max. I've had damn near every vaccine known to man. I was in the military for 6.5 years and they shot me up with everything you could imagine. During my time in the military I began to develop allergies. It started with my lips. Anything but vaseline (and now an organic chapstick I've discovered) would make them break out in hives and swell up for days. Shortly after my last HPV vaccine, I broke out in hives on my entire body (for no apparent reason). It was severe and miserable and required several days of prednisone to clear up. I am now allergic to EVERYTHING I've tried on my skin besides coconut and olive oil. I spent almost a year covered in hives - my body, my face, my hands... miserable. I was pregnant and there was nothing they could do for me. I've also suffered bouts of extreme, completely debilitating joint pain. I can't say with certainty that these things resulted from vaccines, though I am certainly inclined to believe that they did, since we know vaccines can and do cause autoimmune problems. This did NOT influence my decision to not vaccinate my children. I did not make the connection between my problems and vaccines until about a year and a half ago when the joint pain started.

I don't know how to do the fancy quotes of only pieces and parts of the post, so I'll just use my own quotation marks. :) "I assume that the research you've read is peer-reviewed and published in reputable scientific journals? What kind of books have you read? The reason I ask, is that there are many books published on the subject that don't contain even one molecule of scientific data, but only promotes the author's "anti-vaccine" agenda. [COLOR=#000000]The research and epedimiological data I've reviewed show clear benefits of childhood immunization vaccines. I genuinely don't see much to be conflicted about."[/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000]Yes, I've read peer-reviewed research. Again, I don't deny the science behind vaccines. Are there benefits? Yes. I don't deny that. However, I refuse to believe that just because something is NOT peer-reviewed it must be invalid. Who would fund major research to study the harmful effects of vaccines? I have serious issues with blindly accepting information just because it's peer-reviewed and discounting all other information just because it's not. I do agree with you, however, that there are some pretty shady books out there. I tried to stick with books with reputable authors and I read both pro- and anti-vaccine books. I wasn't looking to validate an already held belief (I honestly did not have one); I was looking for the truth. "[/COLOR]Which diseases are you comfortable taking your (children's) and also other people's chances with? [COLOR=#000000]I honestly think that the only reason you and others don't seem to be very afraid of some of these diseases is because they've become extremely rare in our part of the world. If you knew more people who'd lost their children to these diseases or met people who'd survived them with serious sequelae, you probably would feel differently."[/COLOR] [COLOR=#000000]Maybe. Maybe not. We can do "what if" all day. What if they chose to manufacture safer vaccines (and yes, I believe it is a choice)? Would I use them? All I can do is work with what IS. Can I justify exposing my children to vaccines when I believe the likelihood of harm from them is greater than the [/COLOR][COLOR=#000000]likelihood that my children will contract and die/suffer disability from these diseases? No, I cannot. [/COLOR]

That article was nothing but an appeal to fear and emotion. In either case, I did not post here to debate this. At this point, I am 100% comfortable with my decision. I do not deny the risks of some of these diseases, nor do I deny the science behind vaccination. You are not telling me anything I don't already know. The difference between you and I is that I made the decision to look OBJECTIVELY at both sides of the argument. I only posted here to share a point of view that the staunchly pro-vaccine don't seem to take into consideration.

Fear and emotion once again. The fact that you feel it's for no good reason shows that you have knowledge of only one side of the debate.

I don't have time to read through all these comments, but this came across my email and thought I'd just give a quick reply, since your understanding of WHY I (and I suspect many others) choose not to vaccinate is a bit off. I'm a nursing student, by the way, with 10 months left of my program; however, I am a mother of two and have been learning about vaccines for about 5 years. When I got pregnant with my daughter I read all the books and research I could get my hands on (both for and against). I was very conflicted. I ended up doing very selective/delayed vaccines for the first year of her life, but I was not confident that this was the right decision, and I lost much sleep laying in bed pondering this dilemma. Do vaccines save lives? I believe so. Do they also TAKE lives? Absolutely. Do they damage the immune and nervous systems? Yes. Is there a no-fault, government-run court system designed specifically to hear vaccine death/injury cases that will quietly pay you for the death/injury of your vaccine damaged child? YES! Are vaccines worth the risk? Is NOT vaccinating worth the risk? These are tough questions that require much research and contemplation. Frankly, when I hear people say things like "Are you serious?" I get the feeling they haven't really put a whole lot of time or effort into researching and understanding the situation. This is not black and white. There is real danger in vaccines and dismissing that, especially without researching the opposing point of view, is, quite frankly, ignorant. Do I believe in science? Of course. I've never met a nurse or nursing student who doesn't believe in science. I have met a few who have failed to fully research a topic... and as I think someone else pointed out, allow their fear and emotions to make up their mind. Perhaps you haven't noticed, but fear and emotion tend to run BOTH sides of this debate. After that first year I made the (educated) decision to stop vaccinating. My daughter has had a handful, my son will never have any. Do I deny science? Of course not. I believe the SCIENCE behind vaccines is sound (though I am fairly certain the efficacy rates of many are inflated). The execution, however, leaves something to be desired. So much so that I am more comfortable taking my chances with the diseases themselves. And yes, I am serious. Back to studying and mothering now... bash away :)

That's very helpful, thank you. I will look into assisted living for sure. I was somewhat aware of the stigma before I started at ITT, but I have two little ones and was in the middle of a divorce (as a stay-at-home mom) so I really couldn't wait around to get into BSU or NNU. As far as I can tell it doesn't seem to affect getting a job anywhere except St Lukes. I had a round of clinicals at Vibra and there were several ITT grads there. I think $22 an hour will work out just fine. :)

I am in the Boise area and I am going through the ITT program. I eventually want to get into travel nursing, but I'm sure I will need some experience first so I want to find a good job here for a year or two. I am hoping I can find something that will pay well enough for my boyfriend to stay home with the kids. What kinds of things do they take into consideration when hiring new grads? Do they consider GPA? How important is work experience? This is a career change for me and I have no previous health care experience. I'm thinking about either challenging the CNA exam and doing that for a few months, or possibly finding a job as a phlebotomist. Would that make any difference? Thanks :)

Hello! I will be graduating in about a year and I'm just wondering about how much I can expect to earn as a new ADN in the Boise area. How much of a difference is it for working nights/weekends? What places should I be looking at for a first job? Thank You! :)