aeonic

Good work, brithoover! References for those?

Thanks for keeping an eye on us here, Grey Lady. I can't speak for anyone else on the thread, but right about now I'm feeling nervous and clueless, and I keep worrying that I've forgotten something essential. The post about Neehr Perfect sent me into a bit of a tailspin yesterday, so it's a big help when you log on to clear things up. Many thanks!

That's what I get for reading posts on AN at 2 a.m. , when I'm overtired and all too quick to relate posts to pet peeves. You are right, of course. But the quote you included hit a sore spot: increasing media coverage featuring young people in their 20s and early 30s blaming "Baby Boomers" for the current state of the economy, for their inability to get good jobs, and for their debts. I'm a late Boomer myself, and, even though I've anticipated this backlash for over a decade now, it still gets to me. There is an increasing propensity for people (from my generation also!) to bypass self-examination, preferring to blame others instead of acknowledging their own poor decisions and ill-advised actions. As high schoolers often lack maturity and experience in major decision making, leaving them very susceptible to the suggestions of others, I can understand the propensity to blame someone if massive amounts of debt are incurred in the acquisition of an undergrad degree. But it should be limited to the student's parents/guardians, and possibly high-school and college counselors, not an entire 20-year sociological cohort. As for post-bachelor degree education expenditure decisions, it's my belief that those who make the decisions to incur additional debt for additional degrees have the sole responsibility for that one. That being said, I agree that, beyond encouraging them to make a thoroughly informed decision (i.e., comprehensive fiscal planning, including loan repayment scenarios, and investigation of the actual job market in that field based on Department of Labor and of Commerce reports, and other data), and ensuring that they're not conning money out of any of my elderly relatives, it's none of my damned business. I applaud your making the "informed decision" point to the OP. I see so many posts on AN by people (some already in default on student loans) taking major risks to go to nursing school, and am always surprised when I see the occasional post from one who is entering the field, not because of a burning desire to provide compassionate patient care, or to advance the profession in some way, but because they believe that the pay and benefits are incredibly lucrative, and that they will walk into such a position immediately upon graduating, at a location 2 miles from home. I am particularly saddened when I see a young person who is over-the-moon excited about their acceptance into a program of excessive cost and highly dubious reputation. So I apologize for missing the point of your advice to the OP, and allowing myself, in a sleep-deprived state, to zero in on the one quote guaranteed to trigger my Boomer defensive reactions. Kudos for the valuable insights you sought to impart to the OP.

Brandy, slow down. In reality, you and I are very much in agreement on many of your sentiments. The current situation IS deplorable, but it's been the norm for a long, long time. And with much of the public blindly following those politicians who blame economic conditions and offshoring of jobs on the "oppressive" environment (i.e., regulation and income taxes) with which the poor corporations have to contend, the trend isn't going to reverse itself anytime soon. I have to wonder why no one can explain how, in this dire economy, large U.S. corporations are still able to make record profits in such an oppressive business environment.... But even IF jobs were more plentiful, there would still be people complaining of how they were sold down the river as far as their educations were concerned. Like any other major financial expenditure, one has to plan carefully for education, so as to not end up crippled for life by unmanageable debt. Read the plentiful articles on parents and students drowning in education-related debt. I was shocked the first time I read about $200,000 to $350,000 in college loan obligations, but it turns out that these amounts are not unusual (and they also frequently include excessive living expenses and travel undertaken in the name of "education"). Perhaps it would have been advisable to acquire some pre-college education in basic accounting and finance. People who deride others for buying "more house than they could afford", think nothing of signing off on one college loan after another without even calculating the amount of the monthly payments that will be due 6 mos after graduation, or figuring out how many decades they'll be making them. I'm sorry if that sounds callous, but I think of it as just plain Personal Money Management 101. Brandy, I am now in my 6th decade, and believe me when I tell you that I have survived many(!) setbacks that brought me to my knees. Yes, I wish they hadn't happened, but I made damned sure that I learned from every single one, and gained strength and willpower, humility and compassion, from each experience. It's those qualities that have been instrumental in keeping me on course in my nursing prereqs, and that I'm counting on to bring me through nursing school, and that bachelors degree for which I've been waiting for over 30 years now. You are wrong if you think that I endorse the wholesale acquisition of college degrees as a way to compete in the job market. But, unfortunately, the laws that make it illegal to discriminate against a prospective employee on the basis of race or sex do not extend to those without a piece of paper. I'm not talking about an engineering or nursing or chemist position that requires skills and knowledge taught as part of the degree. I have many years experience in a very specialized area (high demand, low supply) but if I spotted a job posting specifying "B.A. required", I was restricted from even applying for it on electronic HR systems. Someone with a B.A. in 19th Century Dutch Decorative Arts and 2 years experience could, but not me with my Associates in Finance and 20 years experience. And take a look at how many entry-level job postings list a B.A. or B.S. as a min educational requirement. In fact, despite all the education-related debt, our nation is rapidly becoming less educated in terms of actual learning. Schools are big business, and more and more "educational" institutions are getting into the game every day, preying upon parents who are desperate for their underachiever to have that piece of paper, laid-off workers looking for marketable skills that will render them irreplaceable, and students looking for the magic ticket to that six-figure entry-level job. The schools have no problem endorsing and embellishing those fantasies because it means lots and lots of taxpayer-funded financial aid will be coming their way. In the process, actual education - learning things that are essential to the future existence of our nation - has taken a back seat to the almighty DEGREE. The U.S. is short of engineers, scientists, and mathematicians because, across the country, students are graduating from high schools lacking literacy in the core subjects they'll need to tackle these college majors. Except for the very top-tier institutions, schools can't afford to be picky, so many tailor curricula in order to retain students, while convincing them and their parents that it's the degree that matters. Brandy, it's refreshing to see someone who is obviously well-informed on the current state of the economy, and the devastating effects of jobs outsourcing. As you mention, even high-level jobs in science, engineering, law, and others are being outsourced. A highly-educated (min. Ph.D) job candidate who speaks flawless English along with his/her own native language can be hired for $4 or $5/hr in India, Thailand, and other countries, so many corporations are laying off their professional staff in the U.S., and opening work centers elsewhere. In the process, many of these companies are handing over U.S. taxpayer-funded intellectual property to the governments of these countries. Not the best policy if you ask me.

LaughingRN, I’ve heard that quote a lot lately, and I blame their parents for filling their kids’ heads with that nonsense, and I blame the kids for thinking it was going to be just that easy. We now have this incredible backlash against education in this country, all because a generation of parents and their indulged and protected children perpetuated a ridiculous fantasy. You’re right when you say education is not synonymous with employment. But, to be honest, when has it ever been true (with a very few exceptions)? Certainly not in my lifetime. But the truth is that NO education will DEFINITELY stand in your way. Ask any bright nondegreed individual who, despite years of valuable job experience, is prohibited from even applying for jobs that have a routine (but unnecessary) BA requirement. You mention being “in the right place at the right time” when you got your job, but forgot the part “with the right educational credentials”. As for the people you mention who haven’t benefitted from their years of education, was there any genuine depth of thought put into their decisions to enroll in school and risk their financial security? What, exactly, did your friend think he was going to do with a criminal justice degree? Did he check the jobs that would be available to him at that level of education, and if, over the prior ten years, there were any like that available in his area? Did he even figure out how much salary he would have to make to pay for the investment in his schooling, or to repay loans? As for your sister, I truly don’t intend this as an insult, but I have to question either the marketability of her degrees, her academic record, her initiative, or, possibly, all three. Except for a very few underpopulated career fields that typically require in-demand technical skills, what does the typical college graduate have to offer an employer right out of college? In truth, he/she needs to identify opportunities, and sell themselves to that employer by showing how their education and experience can handle the demands of that position. The truth is that educational institutions, from the nonethical for-profits up to the most-esteemed Ivy Leagues, are out there shilling for students and all of that lovely taxpayer-funded financial aid. Just like gullible homeowners expected their bankers to tell them they couldn’t afford a mortgage during the housing boom, college students and their parents are expecting college financial officials to tell them that they should pull the plug on their educational journeys. Yeah, many of the actions by the colleges are reprehensible, but expected given that they’re businesses that need to fill seats. But nothing excuses a student and his/her parents from performing basic due diligence on the financial risks of a college education, and from accepting the harsh realities of the job market. After all, formal education is but one small part of preparation for life.

Maryea, without going into gruesome detail, let me just say that our stories are eerily similar. However, today I am 55 years old, and next week I'll begin a BSN program at one of the highest-ranked schools of nursing in the country. Despite normal age-related cognitive deterioration superimposed on chemotherapy-related brain-cell suck, I managed to get As in all my pre-reqs, and score in the 99th percentile on the TEAS. I'm in better shape - physically and mentally stronger - than most people half my age, and I have an enviable work ethic and a realistic view of the world. It's been tremendously hard work, but thanks to my cussedness, and to my fabulous cheerleader of a husband, I'm still standing. Many of my former classmates in their 20s & early 30s have flunked out or withdrawn from school, or didn't believe that a mediocre GPA would affect their chances of getting accepted into nursing school. I can guarantee that many of the counselors at my CC would have bet the farm on their success over mine. I didn't listen, just kept plugging along. I've cried, cursed, and screamed along the way, but I'm proud of what I've accomplished, and oh, so glad that I stuck with it. And now I get to l get to look forward to two years of studying, sleeplessness, backaches, headaches, anxiety, more crying, screaming, and cursing....and I can't freakin' wait. So, Maryea, there may be any number of things standing in the way of your becoming a nurse. Don't kid yourself: the physical demands of patient care mentioned here are REAL, as is the extreme mental stress. But only YOU can decide that you're too old to handle it. I agree with others who have told you to aim higher: go ahead and try for your ADN or your BSN. You will probably have to give up your job to dedicate all your time to studying, but you'll earn higher pay, and also be in a position to compete for a wide variety of nursing positions that don't require extreme physical labor.

temem, are you Traditional BSN or CNL? And are you at Shady Grove or downtown? I've searched through Blackboard pretty carefully, but haven't seen any mention of Neehr Perfect (I'm Trad BSN downtown). Can you tell us where you found your info at? I don't want to start classes without anything that's specified as "required". Thanks!

Hargrove, I'm not sure, but if you haven't made arrangements for payment of your tuition yet, it may be keeping you from accessing Blackboard. I'm assuming that you've gotten your UMB login/password, so if you are entering that into the Blackboard login, and are being refused access, it could be that your registration is incomplete. Early last week, I couldn't get on; as soon as my tuition bill payment was processed, I had no problems. If you are sure that everything is complete, I'd contact IT re: your inability to access BB. There's only one course listed so far, but there's a ton of info. Even if you don't have time to read everything, it will help you to have things organized when class starts week after next. Keep in mind that there's a med calc test the 2nd week in. There's lots of instructional info/practice problems on BB, and this is a good time to get that out of the way (unless you're lucky enough to be able to do med calcs in your sleep). I don't check into AllNurses very often these days, so if you have any more questions, email me at [email protected].

Now this IS a coincidence: I just came across this thread for the first time, via this post - the first one on this thread since April. I, too, am a biker, NOAM, albeit on temporary (and involuntary!) respite while attending nursing school. But love the idea of linking up with other nurses for the day when I am finally able to, once again, mount up and ride off into the proverbial sunset. My personal philosophy is that motorcycling is cheaper than therapy and a helluva a lot more effective! But the coincidence is that, even though I live almost 200 miles away from you, I drove through Frostburg yesterday. In fact, I stopped and had lunch at the Sandy Creek Steak House (or some name like that). The food was really good, and my husband and I repeatedly commented on how much Frostburg appealed to us: the surrounding mountains (with great biking roads!), variety of old house architecture, quaint downtown area, presence of university....I was so taken with the place that I intend on stopping there every time I travel to Ohio via 68. I was also struck by your remark about the unfortunate and all-too-common tendency of non-biker travelers to avert their eyes and quickly retreat from black-leather-clad motorcyclists (although, having traveled alone on long rides before, it can be useful for a woman to have the ability to inadvertently incite some fear in others). In fact, it was on Interstate 68 near Hancock that I first noticed this phenomenon. It was kind of amusing, actually. However, when I used to ride my Kawi Mean Streak outfitted with straight pipes, I would periodically be harrassed by diminutive suburban housewives in gigantic SUVs (Expedition or Escalade-sized) for some strange reason. They would deliberately cut over into my lane - while I was still IN it. Rather disconcerting....and after the 6th or 7th time, I stopped believing it was paranoia on my part. Very strange, indeed. (incidentally, this did not happen with any other m-cycle I rode) Anyhow, NOAM, good to know you and the other biking nurses on AN. p.s. I do have a very funny m-cycling story involving your neck of the woods, but it has info I'd rather not share on a large-readership public board. I can't IM you (not enough posts), but I can be reached via email at [email protected]

markie, i'm not trying to be rude, or unsympathetic, but from your description of your original injury and its long-term physical effects, i question your ability to handle the physical demands of nursing. you even go so far as to mention your open disability case, which implies a physical condition that keeps you from working at full capacity. patient care requires a lot of carrying, lifting, pushing, and pulling, with each and every shift. for instance, are you capable of repeatedly lifting 200- to 300-lb patients, or of dealing with an out-of-control patient during a psychotic episode? yes, there are some jobs in nursing that do not involve direct patient care, but they may not be available in your area and, typically, they are not open to new nursing grads. i'm not trying to discourage you, but you need to give this some thought. i do recognize that you feel like you are backed up against a brick wall right about now. but you do not choose to enter a career because you want to freeze your existing school debt. from your description, your loans are already at unmanageable repayment levels. have you actually sat down and figured out what salary you would have to earn to pay back existing loan obligations? you need to do this before accumulating any more student debt. i'm sure that you know that, unlike credit card or mortgage debt, student loan debt cannot be discharged, even by filing bankruptcy. markie, i can remember being 22, and feeling desperate about where i wasn't in my life. i'm glad that you are concerned, because so many people your age aren't these days, but you are definitely not too old at age 22. you'll benefit from your experiences and your maturity. if you go to your local community college, you'll be astounded by the variety of students: ages, backgrounds, academic achievement, experience, goals. be open to meeting and conversing with your fellow students - of all ages. it enhances your educational experience, and you can make valuable contacts for your future. successful people make learning a lifelong goal. and note that i am saying "learning", not "formal education". just because you don't have money, doesn't mean you should use it as an excuse to stop learning. you need to go to the community college and speak with the counselors. you should see a general ed counselor about your educational and career goals. write up a short description of what and where you have studied since high school), and get copies of all your transcripts and take them with you. you should also see someone in the health professions/nursing dept. about what is involved in being a nurse, and the required courses. as for being "dumb", i don't know you and cannot assess your intellectual capacity or academic abilities. but i will say that most of the students i have met in my life who claim to be "dumb" because of a record of ds and fs on report cards have, in reality, simply not studied to the level required by the class material. and, yes, nursing requires extensive education in the biological and physical sciences, and in mathematics. the material is difficult. you need to approach your pre-nursing studies with this mindset so that you are mentally prepared, and you need to consciously set aside the full amount of time the instructor recommends for study, and use it for that purpose. don't be afraid to reveal that you do not know or understand something. if you insist on "faking" competence in a class, how will you ever learn anything? (it's not like the teacher can read your mind). believe me when i tell you that most times you'll be the class hero because half of the class has the same question. ignore the blowhards who brag about how easy a&p was, or that they breezed through microbiology; they can only deter you from your goal. and don't try to shortcut. i know you feel pressured by time, but you need to get very good grades in your prerequisite courses to be accepted in nursing school, and you'll need to know the material taught in those courses to stay in nursing school. take only as many courses as you can realistically handle each term (earning as in two courses is better than taking 5 classes and getting 2 ds and 3 cs), and take prerequisite courses for your prereqs if you lack the proper background, or have difficulty with a particular subject. good luck, markie. i admire the way that you've faced up to your errors, and your desire to get things right this time. just take your time, plan carefully, and, above all, don't waste time and energy looking for the "easy way". if you go into nursing, it will be many years of hard work and complete dedication to your studies. only you know if you the capacity to accomplish this.

b_more, i'm seriously considering a move downtown. Please drop me an email with details: [email protected] Thanks.

I already have Prime; I really hate shopping, and don't have any time for it besides these days, so, I, too, use Amazon a lot. The Prime has more than paid for itself. The Amazon Student version is now 6 mos. free Prime shipping. I hear you on AACC. With regard to their transferable math and science courses, they are one of the best educational deals around. But I really have a problem with their book policies. They're moving more and more into "unbound books" (which are a PITA, and can't be recycled or resold), or "packages" that contain a lot of junk you never use. They also use some genuinely crummy textbooks with awful editing, and flawed information (Developmental Psych was truly memorable for that). And every term, they assign a "new" edition, even though the publisher hasn't offered one in 5 or 6 years (they present them as "special AACC" editions, and change the binding or packaging to deceive students) but it's simply the same stuff they used in each of the previous 5 years. What's worse is that, as you mentioned, they use that as an excuse not to buy books back from students. I was behind a student who tried to sell a book back that she had bought 6 mos before, but was told that the book was too dated. Very interesting since it was the exact same book as I had just bought for $175 for my upcoming math class. (BTW, it was recommended that she "donate" the book to the "charity" box by the checkout. How much do you want to bet that the bookstore was selling those back to a used text company?). It bugs me that my tax dollars are going to pay for this textbook racket; I much rather see that money go toward paying the professors and instructors a decent wage at AACC. I've had some really excellent teachers there. I'd hold off a bit on buying, if I were you. I think there's gonna be a lot of UMB students wanting to dump some texts come December.

The "Calculation of Medication Dosage" (ISBN: 9780781758543) is definitely something that just about everyone will use to some extent, depending on their level of skill (altho a bit pricey at 67 bucks). This is also something that you're responsible for learning on your own; the school doesn't teach you, but they definitely test you. I believe it's once a term that you have to complete it; passing grade is 100% correct. If you didn't achieve a high level of comfort with dimensional analysis in your chem classes, DO IT NOW, and save yourself a lot of stress later. Because it's "recommended" and you're essentially teaching yourself, you've got some flexibility on buying a cheaper book if you can find one that fulfills your needs; there are tons of them out there. There's also lots of free instruction on the internet...not only on nursing sites, but chemistry and mathematics sites too. Some sort of NCLEX prep/ study guide is also highly recommended. I've been warned repeatedly that huge amounts of information will be coming at students in these classes, and apparently, the book helps you learn to identify not only the material that will be covered on the test, but also how you'll be questioned on it. But the few people I've talked to said that they've had no need of additional texts aside from those. They say that there's more than enough to cover in the required texts. One more thing: you can buy an APA Guide if you want to. However, there are lots of websites that provide comprehensive information on APA style, and are much more user-friendly (especially to the user's wallet!).

Tippeny, most times I steer away from "packages" because many of them have crap I don't use. This promises to be especially problematic in this program, where the amount of assignments and reading is monumental. I had already purchased the Kozier & Erb "Fundamentals" text when, later, I found out out that a number of students are actually using the workbook and MyNursingLab, despite them not being listed as "required" books. I went back on Amazon and ordered those things separately. Amazon (for whatever reason) doesn't carry the package, but I bought all items (NEW) separately on Amazon (text, workbook, MyNursingLab) for $162.00 total. Whatever you do, make sure that all of the things you are expecting to be included, actually ARE, and make sure that there's not an issue with whole "access number" thing if you go with the "used" option.

TEXTBOOKS: Anyone in Spring 2012 Trad BSN buy your books yet? I checked out the booklist provided when I registered for classes yesterday, and found that the REQUIRED books alone total approx. $850.00. This does not include the recommended texts (some of which I've heard ARE worthwhile), or the Response Card, and supplies (scrubs, stethoscope, etc.). If you buy used books, you get about 20% to 25% off the "new" price. I hadn't planned to buy books yet, but, out of curiosity, I surfed by Amazon. I bought ALL my required texts for $580.00. All of the books are NEW. Not only is that over 30% cheaper than the prices quoted by the school supplier (Barnes & Noble, I think) for new books, I paid fifty bucks LESS than the USED price total they gave. I don't work for Amazon, or have any connection to them. I have, however, consistently found them a very convenient and (so far) dependable way to shop for necessities. And you can't argue with saving almost 300 bucks on an $850 book bill. There's an Au Bon Pain shop in the hospital across the street from the SON, and that $300 will keep me in cherry danish, cheese croissants, and chocolate-dipped shortbread all term.