tommyperkins

The following is the Eighth Amendment to the Constitution: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted." Just whom do you think they are talking about here?

Please offer some stats. Which program comes in second place?

Stanton Peele's point is that 12-step coercion violates a person's constitutional right to religious liberty.

Why do you think I have a bias against religion? I am a Christian.

I'll be honest, open-minded and willing. I just wanted to ask you a few questions since you posted your credentials and also said you were a long-time member of AA, so I thought you would be well-informed enough to answer some basic questions. I don't want to take up a lot of your time so for the most part the answers can be short. Some people on this forum who are obviously familiar with AA claim it is not religious. What about it? Is AA religious? And here are a few more questions: Is alcoholism a disease? More than ninety percent of treatment programs in the U.S. are 12-step treatment programs. Is this not really religious indoctrination rather than medical treatment? Is treatment in the U.S. based on medical science or is it based on religion? Overall, is alcohol/drug treatment in the U.S. successful? Can you explain to me, in scientific terms, the role the 12-steps play in treatment? Several people have said that in AA your higher power can be a tree or a doorknob. Is this true? Can a tree or a doorknob actually remove a person's character defects? Step 6: "Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character." If so, can you explain, in scientific terms, how a tree or doorknob can do this?

Are you the teacher? If so then I am the pupil and I am ready to ask you some questions.

anyone who might believe that aa is not religious can read chapter 3 of this book: http://www.morerevealed.com/books/resist/index.html not to mention that numerous federal and state courts have ruled aa to be religious.

No, I'm not a nurse. Does that make me ineligible to express my opinion here?

Wow!!! Especially the quote by Justice Black!

are you saying that it would not hurt anyone to be forced to pray? if so then why would the u.s. state department be reporting on such human rights violations as mentioned below? "in taliban-controlled areas, the taliban had decreed that all muslims were required to take part in five daily prayers. those who were observed not praying at appointed times or who were late attending prayer were subject to punishment, including severe beatings. friday noon prayers at mosques reportedly were compulsory for all muslim men;" http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2001/sa/8222.htm isn't it just fine and dandy that my tax monies go to supporting the state department to roam the world looking for human rights violations when right here in the land of the free and home of the brave, the government forces people to pray. "and it is one of the most blatant and pervasive violations of constitutional rights in the united states today. after all, even murderers on death row are not forced to pray." archie brodsky senior research associate, harvard medical school's program in psychiatry and the law "aa abuse" http://www.peele.net/lib/aaabuse.html

This link was included in the original link of this thread: http://religiousfreedom.lib.virginia.edu/sacred/vaact.html In case you don't care to read down it that far it reads "Be it therefore enacted by the General Assembly, That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever"

I was allowed only fifteen minutes to speak and then turned over to the public relations director outside of the meeting. The Executive Director of the Board said she would look into the matter. The pr guy told me he thought it was all very interesting. He took my email address but I have not heard from him. Several times in my life I have considered law school, but it's out of the question now unless I win the lottery.

Yes, anyone who denies that prayer is religious is definitely playing a game of semantics. "Political language... is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind."George Orwell

Have you ever considered that the American treatment system may be harmful rather than helpful? Many writers claim that it is harmful including Dr. Stanton Peele, Dr. Herbert Fingarette, and Dr. Jeff Schaler who last year was featured on ABC News' 20/20 with John Stossel. Could the American treatment industry be blackening the record of medicine, just as did Dr. Benjamin Rush who just happens to be the first medical professional to claim alcoholism is a disease? Of Dr. Benjamin Rush, the "great" Revolutionary War doctor and signer of the Declaration of Independence, P.M. Ashburn wrote in his "History of the Medical Department of the U.S. Army", "By virtue of his social and professional prominence, his position as teacher and his facile pen, Benjamin Rush had more influence upon American medicine and was more potent in the propagation and long perpetuation of medical errors than any man of his day. To him more than to any man in America, was due the great vogue of vomits, purging, and especially of bleeding, salivation and blistering, which blackened the record of medicine and afflicted the sick almost to the time of the Civil War." On the cold, windy afternoon of December 14, 1799, a horse ridden by 37 year old Dr. Elisha Cullen Dick galloped up the snow covered driveway of Mt. Vernon. He was of a "newer" school of medical thought than the two older doctors who were tending General Washington, and he had been summoned for a more collective opinion. When Dr. Dick arrived the General had already been bled three times. "He needs all of his strength--bleeding will diminish it." was the iconoclastic young doctor's opinion. His advice was not taken by the two veteran bleeders, Dr. Craik and Dr. Brown. Washington was bled for the fourth time. He died that evening. Craik later wrote Brown that they should have listened to Dick. Had they "taken no more blood from him, our good friend might have been alive now. But we were governed by the best light we had; we thought we were right, and so we are justified."

recall that in post # 18 mjlrn97 wrote: "frankly, i think this whole topic is a smokescreen to enable the subject of the op to continue to live in denial" perhaps mjlrn97 or anyone else from the 12-step programs or the treatment field can explain to us just what "denial" is.

those are some excellent points, lemonhead. when elkpark writes: "the comparison to property rights is a good one. we have a right to due process protections relative to real property that we have purchased, but we have no constitutional right to have the property ..." elkpark needs to read a little more on not only property rights, but also the right to religious liberty as enshrined in our constitution: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/rightsof/property.htm http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/rightsof/roots.htm

Does that horrendous relapse rate also include those who have been through formal addiction treatment? When you say "we professionals" are you talking about nurses in general or are you talking about treatment professionals? Are you a treatment professional?

yes, i got a reply. here it is in case you missed it: "tommy. thank you for your email.the issue you asked about is an outside issue to na, and na has no opinionon any outside issue. how or why a person comes to na is not our concern. na groups have only one purpose and that is to carry the message of recovery to addicts who still suffer. we are not medical experts, treatment professionals, or law enforcement personnel. we have no professionals and are plainly and simply a fellowship of recovering drug addicts who follow the 12 steps of narcotics anonymous, and meet regularly in order to help each other stay clean. please let me know if we can be of any further assistance. jeff gershoff,"

Which question?

so na claims coercion is an outside issue, yet they publish guidelines for cooperating with coercion: http://www.na.org/bulletins/bull31.htm just as does aa: http://www.alcoholics-anonymous.com/english/fellowshipsvcs/e_guides/mg-05.html

well then, let's take a very close look:"-----original message-----from: steve sigmansent: friday, december 21, 2001 9:43 amto: jeff gershoffsubject: re: coercion: attn. mr. gershoffhi tommy. thank you for your email.the issue you asked about is an outside issue to na, and na has no opinionon any outside issue.how or why a person comes to na is not our concern. na groups have only onepurpose and that is to carry the message of recovery to addicts who stillsuffer. we are not medical experts, treatment professionals, or lawenforcement personnel. we have no professionals and are plainly and simplya fellowship of recovering drug addicts who follow the 12 steps of narcoticsanonymous, and meet regularly in order to help each other stay clean.please let me know if we can be of any further assistance.jeff gershoff, supervisorfellowship services teamna world services818.773.9999, ext. [email protected]: tommy perkins [mailto:[email protected]]sent: thursday, december 20, 2001 1:26 pmto: [email protected]: coercion: attn. mr. gershoffdear mr. gershoff,i am the founder of 12-step coercion watch:http://groups.yahoo.com/group/12-step_coercion_watchwhat is the official position of narcotics anonymous on the issue ofgovernment coercing people into narcotics anonymous?sincerely,tommy perkins

My point was that Lemonhead made an excellent point. Furthermore, AA's cooperation with coercion has turned AA into a penal colony, thus they cooperate with this coercion at their own peril. There is a BIG difference between someone who does illegal drugs and someone who murders. Unfortunately the criminal justice system obviously does not see it that way and is willing to use AA to as a dumping ground for its failed system. AA has become the sewer into which the criminal justice system discharges its seemingly insoluble social problems. As sewers pollute the waters into which they empty so AA now pollutes the helping professions. The last two things a person who is trying to quite a bad habit needs are to be indoctrinated into a belief system of powerlessness (learned helplessness) and to be stigmatized with a lifelong label of alcoholic or addict. I would be much less critical toward AA if AA would become honest and admit it is religious and also stop cooperating with coercion. Until that happens I will be very critical of AA and no, I do not like 12-step programs. Their dishonesty and their cooperation with coercion are major reasons I do not like them.

here are a couple of recent examples of the types of people you might meet at an aa meeting: http://athensreview.com/articles/2004/06/11/news/news08.txt http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/news/nation/8903907.htm?1c

as a state agency, a board of nursing is bound by certain laws. and they are violating the constitution in a very serious way if they attach an ultimatum of attending religious exercises as a requirement for holding a license to practice nursing. as i have said before, they are violating the religion clauses of the first amendment as well as the religious test clause of article vi, section 3 of the constitution. this is not the first time you have denied that boards force people to go to aa. it sounds like you want to play a game of semantics with the word "force". as i pointed out before the federal appeals court used the word "forcing" in their opinion in the warner case. do you also deny that boards coerce people to go to aa or that they compel people to go to aa? you also never answered my previous question, "do you deny that a license to practice nursing is a public trust?" (see post #13 of this thread).[/size] it appears that you believe the boards are above the law when you say, "but the reality remains that the bon is making the decisions." i repeat, the board is not above the constitution. they can no more demand a religious test than they can demand a racial test. they cannot attach unconstitutional conditions to a public trust. they cannot deny a license to a person because of their chosen religious faith and they cannot deny a license to someone because of their race. they cannot coerce people into aa because aa is a religious organization. they cannot even promote aa, let alone coerce people into aa.[/size] now read the first quote from my presentation--justice blackmun's concurring opinion in lee v weisman: http://www.angelfire.com/journal/forcedaa/ncbon.html