Difficult_To_Stick

I had some time to kill while I was on permahold with a doctor's office, so I went over to Medisave.net to look at the Classic II SE and Cardiology III even though I don't need to buy one yet. I was astounded at the number of options there are. Question: 1. What is the relationship between tubing length and acoustics? I tend to think that the shorter the length, the less surface area there is to introduce noise from outside, but as I've said many times, I know very little about this stuff (if anything). Why would somebody choose to go with longer tubing vs shorter tubing? What is the internal (mental) debate that goes on during the decision making process on that? 2. I couldn't believe how many color combinations there are. I knew there were different tubing colors as I've seen nurses with various color tubing, but I didn't realize that the ear tubes and chestpiece came in different colors too. Is it all just aesthetic based on preference? For example, is an "All black" scope with a black chestpiece, black ear tubes, black tubing, etc. identical in quality and durability to a stethoscope with regular stainless steel parts and say, red tubing? Is it paint that makes the color difference, and does that paint chip? I saw there was a copper and brass version, which I assume is plated onto steel? Or are those scopes made with copper or brass chestpieces? I had no idea that stethoscopes come with more color and finish options than buying a car. Wow.

Thanks. I plan to use my cheapie Mabis for as long as I can. My father gave me the remaining parts from his (that fell apart during use shortly after being given it as a gift), so I have spare parts to swap out. I'm in no rush to upgrade just yet. I just was curious what would be worth getting if I were to upgrade. :) Afterall, I'm mainly just using it to take my blood pressure.

Ok. I appreciate all of the input. I realize that this is a tough issue as many nurses (and doctors) still prefer to get an IV started manually. I was told something yesterday that made me think. I had to get my pre-op bloodwork done again as the 30 day point had expired. I told the phlebotomist "you're best bet is going to be to stick me right here." and I poked around until I felt a spot I was familiar with. I've always noticed that my veins seem fairly sensitive and I can feel when something or somebody is pushing on one. It's a feeling that's kind of like the feeling you get when you accidentally trap your ulnar nerve between your bone and skin and it gets smacked (aka hitting your funny bone), but with more pain. I can't feel the vein with my finger, but my vein feels my finger (if that makes any sense). She didn't see or feel a vein there, but I assured her that there was a vein there. She stuck me, but there was nothing. I told her to move it slightly because I could feel that she's in the right spot. Then I felt vacuum pressure and told her "You're there, I just felt vacuum pressure". I looked over, and just after I said that, blood started flowing through the tubing. She seemed astonished and said she had never come across somebody who had tactile sensation in their vein. Until yesterday, I thought this was normal. I don't know if she was just playing around with me or if this is really abnormal. I decided last night to order the Venoscope II. I went with it over the Vein-Lite for a few reasons. 1. I spoke to Translite (who makes the VeinLite and was told that the EMS and LED unit use standard LEDs, not high-intensity LEDs). I know from seeing the Venoscope that it uses high-intensity LEDs similar to some of the ones in high end LED flashlights I own (not quite as bright though as my flashlights get hot enough to cook on because they're so bright). That meant that in order to get more light, I'd have to get the LED unit rather than the EMS unit. The LED unit has 2 drawbacks for me. The first is that it's very pricey at almost $450 for just the unit itself. The second is that it is rechargeable. I hate rechargeable batteries. There is no need for rechargeable batteries in that unit as I'm sure if nothing else, they could have gotten it to work with 2 AA batteries and a step-up voltage converter for the extra 0.7 volts. Even easier would have been a CR123A battery which already has a nominal voltage of 3.6v with the Li-ion CR123As which can be purchased in bulk at very reasonable prices online (a small fraction of what you'd pay at a local retailer). I'm sure they opted for the rechargeable battery due to its being flat and compact. Nonetheless, I didn't like the idea of a rechargeable battery which will one day die and need replacement. I've seen what happens. My father (a physician) has 2 Welch-Allyn diagnostic sets that are in "retirement". They're both the standard Otoscope/Ophthalmoscope interchangeable base combo. The batteries are rechargeable, but dead. I just recently found a source to buy new batteries as I feel that it's a complete waste to just have these two perfectly good sets sitting in a drawer because of bad batteries, and they aren't cheap. I'll buy them because I know my father would like to use those sets again and doesn't have the time to deal with battery shopping, but lesson-learned: avoid rechargeable batteries. So, between the price and the battery - I was losing interest. 2. The Venoscope has more listed clients, in more hospitals I frequent, and the Veinlite does not publish a client list like the Venoscope folks do. To me, this is an indicator that the Veinlite hasn't caught on yet. I could be wrong, but I found all of the hospitals I use listed amongst Venoscope's clients. To me, that said that the Venoscope is both reputable, AND more importantly, staff would be familiar with how to use it. So, no more "Oh, well, we have one, but it's in the OR." or other reasons why not to use it. I'll bring it, they can use it. Those are the main reasons I went with the Venoscope II. I could be wrong about the Veinlite. It could be the best thing since sliced bread as far as I know. I'm forced to make a lot of assumptions in choosing. Going this route however affords me Venoscope's 30 day money-back guarantee. I will have the Venoscope by the time i have surgery next week. That will be it's first trial. I'll go over my arms and hands with a fine-toothed comb (or rather with the Venoscope) and familiarize myself with spots that look good ahead of time. I'll give it a try. If the Venoscope doesn't work, maybe I'll try the Veinlite EMS. I'm really turned off by the Veinlite LED's price and battery though. 8 LEDs do not cost $200. I think the price is really in the battery. Some people might like rechargeable. That's fine. I just am not amongst them. If you folks would like, I'd be happy to keep you posted on how the Venoscope works out. I feel that if next week, it can be used to get an IV going (and they do btw use the Venoscope at the hospital I'm having surgery at, so they should be familiar with it), it's a keeper. I'm hopeful that gone are the days that I walk around with arms that look like I have a heroine addiction. If it doesn't work out next week, I'll try it with my next infusion as I know for sure that the head nurse where I get my infusions is familiar with the Venoscope (and likes it too). Thanks again.

Hi all, I just wanted to hit this once more. Veinlite v Venoscope, which do you use and if you've used both, which one works best? That's all I'm asking. :)

Just looked at the Ultrascope online out of curiosity. The pressure modulated frequency control doesn't make sense to me. How is that possible? Does it actually work? Does it basically eliminate the need for bells or different size diaphragms? I should let my father know about this. Maybe he'd be interested in getting one. His current scope dates back to his residency (he's retiring in 4 years to put it in perspective). As for the Littman Cardio III - for somebody in my position (not a nurse or a doctor and only using it on myself), is the extra money worth it? It's not terribly more expensive and is certainly affordable. Is there anything the Classic II SE does better than the Cardiology III? I'm leaning towards in the future going with a Littman if my cheapie Mabis goes solely because I live a mere couple of miles from 3M's HQ and imagine that might make getting replacement parts over the years easier.

Nooooo. Quite the contrary. I have no expectation that the nurse or doctor that tries to start my IV will be familiar with how to use a transilluminator. I especially have no expectation that they will know how to manipulate one while simultaneously manipulating a needle/catheter. The way I envision it would work like this: First I get to know the device well and spend considerable time running it along my arms, hands, etc. looking for noteworthy veins. Then, when I bring it into the hospital, lab, or infusion center, I could simply use it to show the nurse or doctor exactly where a good vein is. This would at least eliminate the whole "stick and pray" game that goes on. Sometimes when they miss, they miss by a long ways. So, at least we could eliminate that problem and make sure the needle is at least going into the same zip code as where the vein lies. An additional option would be to buy the sterile disposable covers for it and hold it myself while the nurse gets the IV started. That way, they don't need to know how to manipulate it and the needle. This would probably be easier with a Veinlite than the Venoscope based on the larger area illuminated. All of the points raised are legitimate. I'm still ok with trying a transilluminator. In the worst case scenario, I waste some money and have a weird looking flashlight. I just need to know which is better at illuminating the area. I will be happy to explore the idea of having a port installed, but in the meantime, I'm happy to entertain the idea of getting a transilluminator. It's easier to entertain though when I know which product works best.

Thanks all. That's plenty of information. I wrote down the suggestions on a notecard and stuck in in the front zipper pocket of the cheapie case that I'm using to keep to the scope in. If it breaks on me, I'll look more closely at the above mentioned scopes. Obviously, my needs are nowhere near yours. I am the only person it would be used on, and its use would be limited to fairly basic routine tasks to keep on top of my heath.

Hi again. I'm starting a second thread just for one more question I figured you folks would be best at helping me with. I've been using the same sthethoscope for some time now. I belive it's a Mabis Sprague-Rappaport-Type adult scope. I've only been using it to take my blood pressure manually every day or two to stay on top of it. I don't trust the digital BP machines. My stethoscope wasn't exactly the best scope out there. It cost me all of maybe $16. My father says he was given one like it for free, but after using it on patients, it fell apart quickly. I haven't had that happen, but I figured maybe it would be a good idea to at least know what I will replace it with when and if it does break. My father uses Tyco brand scopes. Those seem out of my budget. Other doctors I've noticed use Littman scopes. They make a few scopes in my budget. I'm just looking for good acoustics, durability, and knowing that I'll be able to buy parts for it over the years, like new diaphragms, etc. I've recently been taught how to use the bells to listen for specific things, and how to use the diaphragm to listen to my bowels and hear what's going on with one of my problems/disorder. The Mabis scope has been good to me. If an when it goes though, I'd be happy to step up a notch in quality. Any suggestions would be appreciated. note: for the most part, if I bought a new scope when the Mabis scope breaks, it too would be primarily used for taking my blood pressure manually.

I will definitely ask about the Mediport. I have a strong feeling that I'm going to be told that my susceptibility towards developing an infection is too high to consider this type of approach. I will ask though. For the moment, we'll pretend like the doctor has told me I can't do it. I will call and leave a message with both my Infectious Disease doc, Gastroenterologist, my primary doc, and also my uncle who is an anesthesiologist. I'll also ask my father who coincidentally specializes in the disease I have that requires immuno-suppressant drugs. One of them should have an idea of whether it would be safe with me. Thank you for the compliments. :) Well, you are correct that somebody who really knows what they're doing is better than a gizmo. I have no argument. For my infusions, before I moved, I knew a nurse who really knew what she was doing and got me every time. She was so good that I was thinking of somehow putting her on retainer to start an IV whenever I need a procedure not at that hospital. lol. So far, I haven't found anybody like that up here unfortunately. Maybe I will eventually, but until then, I'm going to seek whatever help I can get, and if that comes in the form of a glorified flashlight -so be it - if it works. As I said above, I'm happy to discuss the port idea. I just don't think they're going to spring for it. To illustrate why, the last time I had minor surgery, just a small infection or cyst, the site got reinfected 3 times in 6 months and had to keep getting opened up over and over again. There's no knowing if I'm done yet. I have a microdiscectomy scheduled in 2 and 1/2 weeks and the doctors is quite scared about the risk of infection. So, I just feel that they're going to shy away from installing something like that. Nevertheless - I really will ask. Thanks. As for my education, it's temporarily on hold until this fall. My upcoming surgery along with some other factors put my education on hold. It's ok though. Now I'll just have 2 groups of friends from law school. My old section who will give me their outlines and tips as to what to expect on the exams, and my new section this Fall. So you feel the Venoscope does do what it's advertised to do? Monetarily, it seems ok. $199.99 directly from the company with a money-back guarantee. $180 through other vendors. Well, the problem with that is that phlebotomists don't have that kind of technology, nor does the infusion center in Minneapolis. If there is a portable version though- I'd be interested in looking into it. WHen you say "veinlights" are you talking about the Venoscope, or the Veinlight, either EMS or LED. It's a separate brand owned by a company called Translite. So wait.... the port is in my chest? What does it connect to? I was thinking that this went into the arm. I need o google "mediport" and get a better understanding of it. Or ask my uncle about it. One or the other. Thanks soo far guys. For the moment, I'd love to focus on the core question above of the Veoscope v. the Veinlight and whether there are any other competitors out there. The "Weelite" doesn't seem like a competitor because it's been a while since I was considered an infant, despite my love for Spongebob Squarepants at age 27.

I'll ask about that surgical implant. It sounds like it's around the same lines as a PICC line (edit: I just noticed that I missed you mentioning a PICC line)? I have a feeling that my doctors are going to advise me against it due to the risk of infection. I actually have more than one condition as far as chronic illness, one of them was just diagnosed recently (it's a genetic mutation) and it turns out that it exacerbates the elements of another condition leaving me immuno-compromised, and the infusion therapy makes it worse too. There's no harm in asking. As far as a central line - how painful is that? I've seen them done, but I don't think I've ever had one. The issue with my veins isn't really that they're unusable. The veins on top of my hands I would say are unusable as they almost always blow within a few hours. My veins otherwse are more a problem in the sense that they're difficult to see and/or feel. They tend to be somewhat deep, and I'm told that they "move" (which I didn't know they could do). It usually works out that once they get an IV started, it stays usable for days. There have been nurses and doctors who almost 100% of the time get an IV started with me on the first stick. Unfortunately, when I moved across the country for law school, I gave up being able to use them to start my IVs. I really feel that if I could just help the nurses and/or doctors find them that my problem would be gone. So, that's where I'm coming from with this request for info on whatever devices exist that would make the job easier. My veins are awful, but not in the sense that they're unusable, it's more the placement of them and their willingness to cooperate (that is if they "move" as I've been told). Thanks. :)

Hi there nurses, doctors, and whomever else is on this website. I will start by saying that I am not a doctor, nurse, or in the medical field at all. Instead, I'm a law student. I do come from a family with several doctors and others in the medical field. My father and uncle are M.D.s, another uncle is a pharmacist, an aunt is a nurse, and there are others. So, between talking with all of them, I've picked up little bits and pieces and have a basic understanding of some aspects of medicine. I come here hoping you all can help me out. I am an individual with chronic illness, who gets IV infusion theraphy every 6 weeks, constant bloodwork, and ends up in the hospital somewhat frequently. I'm not complaining about that. I've gotten used to it. My problem is that I unfortunately have awful veins. Often, it can takes more than 5 sticks before an IV is started. The record for me is at 8 (not something I'm proud of). My uncle who is an anesthesiologist had to stick me 3 times today before getting an IV started for my infusion. I simply wish to make my life a little easier by resolving the IV issue. The problem is two-fold. First, obviously it's painful to get stuck multiple times. More importantly though, I end up with black and blue marks at the IV sites and I have to imagine that my law school classmates must wonder if I'm using intravenous drugs or something. It's a little embarassing. For a few years I was thinking that maybe I could take a class somewhere and learn how to start an IV on myself. I've since come to the conclusion that this isn't going to happen. First of all, I hate needles. It's hard enough to give myself my B12 shots in my leg. I doubt I have the mental will-power to stick one in a vein. The second problem is that it would seem to be physically impossible. So, I've arrived at option 2, and the one that makes more sense. I've recently learned of these devices called transilluminators that help highlight veins using the refraction of light. I've played around with the concept using just an LED flashlight, and conceptually it seems like a good idea. Today I briefly saw a Venoscope II used, but I never got a chance to hold it myself and run it up and down my arm. I've also read about the Veinlight, a competing product. I found a thread or two on this site mentioning them and it seems they got mixed reviews. I was hoping to just bring this issue to the forefront once more. My questions are: 1) Are there other competitors to the Venoscope II and Veinlight? If so, what are they? (note: it would have to be portable as the plan would be that I'd bring it with me when I go for infusions or bloodwork) 2) Which device have you found to be best? I realize that some people feel that the devices are no substitute for a trained professional feeling around, however that approach hasn't worked out terribly well over the years. 3) Are there any other gadgets (maybe not transilluminators) that do the same thing? Cost isn't the big factor. The Veinlight LED is $500 and I'd gladly pay that if it meant I could put this trouble behind me. I just don't want to get stuck with a device that does nothing. I also realize, as my father has brought up, that some hospitals or other centers might not want to use whatever device I bring in. I'm ok with that, but the way I see it - if I just can find a vein myself using one of these devices and then say to them, "Look, here's a good one. Stick me here." - I tend to think that they would be ok with it. Am I wrong? Any help you can offer would be helpful. I wouldn't mind getting the IVs and bloodwork as much if I could just make sure that they get a vein on the first stick. I've been doing some reading here and elsewhere, I'd love to know what you all think of these devices and your experience with them. My only requirement of the device is that it be portable enough to bring with me to either the hospital, lab, or infusion center - and of course be somewhat helpful or effective. Thank you very much in advance. :)