Big Bab's

I must say that when the Protectiv jelcos came out I finally was able to start IVs every time because of the extra inch or so. Me too!!...I thought I was the only one....Although I still like the jelcos for babies...I'm not sure why?

Pros- Hospitals--If you like doing procedures ie. caths, IVs...etc you'll like the hosp., good money too. Clinics--autonomy, something different all the time. Offices--you get to know your patients VERY well, over longer periods of time, develop long-term relationships with them. (which can be a pro and a con) and you'll DEFINITELY develop your interpersonal skills in a hurry!...Usually pretty good hours, especially if you have kids. Cons- Hospitals--politics (ick!!), almost no autonomy, very little control over hours. Clinics--You'll meet some strange ones BUT that can be entertaining too!, weird hours. Office--the pay really sucks, it can be as little as half what you would make in a hospital setting....but I agree it was my favorite too! :)

Oddly enough, I agree!!! ....It IS all about choices and I AM the only one that could get myself out of the situation that I was in, I'm lucky this was an easy decision for me, but its not always for others...I DO attend the meetings (and make a mental grocery list in my head the whole time to keep my brain occupied.).....I do what I have to do because for me, its an easy decision, its not for alot of people......I just wish that ALL steppers took the same view that you have, "I don't want you there if you don't want to be there."...cuz if they did, it would be alot more difficult to mandate people to the meetings, but thats a "what if" and I have no control over that!.....and you're right, this discussion HAS veered all over, but its been a good debate too, and I think both sides learn everytime we debate it and thats not a bad thing. :)

I am soooo sorry that you had to go thru so much to get where you are today, but I am truly glad that you got here....congrats!!...How much clean/sober time do you have?....I am just shy of 3 years and am very proud of that fact!...it feels great. :)

Why does it have to be "little more than punishment that will hopefully correct the problem."??.......We (the people in the programs) PAY MONEY (lots of it!) to be in these programs to get good "treatment", so why CAN'T they help us to find an individualized program, one that works best for each person, and a plan that takes each persons belief systems, lifstyle, one that takes everything into account, why ONE program for everyone?!!.....We would NEVER let people get away with this kind of thing in other service sectors, we would NEVER allow teachers or Dr's to practice this way, so WHY should we let the BON's and Alt. programs do this??....we pay them huge amounts of money for 3 to 5 YEARS to be in it!!!....Why shouldn't we expect better "treatment" and more individualization!??!....I would truly LOVE a legitimate answer for this. :angryfire

...............See my replies above, Thanks!.............................

Just to clear something up, when nurses are mandated to these Alt. programs, they are supposedly there to recieve TREATMENT not punishment....so when we are coerced into meetings, the BON does it in the name of TREATMENT.....these programs are supposed to get the nurse treatment and help maintain and prove their sobriety, they are also to help facilitate the nurse rejoining the nursing profession NOT try to break us down, treat us like garbage, and keep our licenses and livlihood, which IS what happens in many programs.....It seems that there are a few in this discussion that are unaware of this, so here it is.

Amen to that Quailfeather!!!....and for the record Dixiedi, treatment "Porgrams" choose the 12 steps NOT because it does or does not work, they choose it because its FREE.

UUuuummm, I don't see anybody denying that they have a problem, all we want is a choice of programs, not to "get out of" anything, not to "deny" that we have a problem.......Could you please explain why you think that if a person does not agree with and doesn't feel the 12 steps are right for them, that they are saying they don't have a problem???....It's a HUGELY false statement if that's what you're saying.

That really sucks!!...Can you ask for a different preceptor??...If not, maybe you could find a gentle way to let her know that you're doing this because you want experience and to learn from her, maybe stroke the ego a little....just a thought.

I second that motion Tweety!!!....I couldn't have said it better. :)

I guess I missed the part where anybody "demanded" that God not be mentioned??....They can mention God all they want as long as we have an alternative "program" that doesn't require everybody to do it....there are many alternatives out there Rational Recovery, Smart recovery, Women in recovery, Moderation management....etc......Why do you think that 12 step programs are the only way??......Its obvious you know nothing about 12 step programs, maybe you should do some research on the subject before you form such a skewed opinion on the topic?.....and for the record I DO NOT think addiction is a disease, I use Rational Recovery which teachs that "recovery" and "abstinence" is a "choice" that we make, I have made a conscious decision to NEVER USE AGAIN, I also have come to realize that my actions and use was the result my selfish and thoughtless BEHAVIOR and I CHOOSE to never act that way again!....This is what Rational Recovery teachs, that it is MY RESPONSIBILITY to stay clean and sober, I must be able to rely upon myself and not a "group conscious" to see that I stay that way.....BUT I know that this approach will NOT work for everyone!!.....There needs to be alternatives so that we can ALL find what works for each of us!!.....What is wrong with that?!??!......Chemo works for some cancer patients and not for others, as does radiation.....but since one works for many does that mean we should make it the only treatment for patients?!?!....Once again, I DO NOT believe in the disease theory but the boards do, so I guess we need to put it in their language to get the point across!?!?

I could be wrong here but I recall that our country was founded on the premise of FREEDOM OF RELIGION?!?......Isn't that why the pilgrims came to America in the first place???.....Soooooooo actually we're just trying to get back to the way our country worked in the first place.

Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! :)

1) Many athiests believe there is NOTHING out there, "You're born, you live, you die, thats it."....Not saying I believe this but many do, and to force them into these meetings is wrong wrong wrong!!!....For some it is too offensive to sit thru. 2) I personally know MANY people who are clean without ANY PROGRAM, including myself. 3) NONE OF US are trying to "get out of it"!!!.....We would just like a CHOICE as to what programs we can use, and there are many. I've said it before and I'll say it again!...we should be required to do SOMETHING!!...but we should also have a say in what that SOMETHING is....and our abstinence should be monitored with random body fluid testing.....Why does that seem sooooo unreasonable to you?!?! :stone I know of no other "disease" that the "patient" has no say as to what treatments are going to be used!!....So why this one??....and could you please refrain from the name-calling?...ie. "big mouth folk" its very immature.

The difference here is that at the buffet you have the right and are allowed to pick only what you want, at a 12 step meeting its all or nothing, especially when involved in an alternative program....we are required to PROVE that we "eating to ENTIRE buffet" on a monthly basis....it sucks.

The point that we keep trying to make here and that you are missing is that the 12 steps ARE RELIGIOUS in nature, this IS NOT an opinion, its legal!!...The courts have already ruled on this, and with that said IT IS UNCONSTITUTIONAL TO MANDATE PEOPLE TO THESE MEETINGS!...It is ilegal to mandate people to religion!

I am in NO way implying that this is "all in her head" or anything, but what about depression?.....I've seen patients with some very strange symptoms that wouldn't usually be related to it...Just a thought....I hope she's feeling better soon! :)

My issue isn't so much with an AA/NA member giving some well intended advice but with the fact that alot of alt. programs require the participants to have regular written reports from their "approved sponsor", and these programs grade alot of a nurses progress by these letters, now don't you think thats a bit too much power to put into the hands of someone with NO proffesional experience??...and heaven forbid you should make your sponsor angry!!....then theirs the issue of, if my "sponsor" is reporting to the BON all the time, exactly how much "rigorous honesty" am I gonna practice around them??...what if I inadvertently said something that THEY see as "a sign of relapse"??.....I probably wouldn't feel real free to talk to this person about EVERYTHING.......I personally don't use the 12 steps, but even if I did I've have HUGE issues with this, its a big conflict of interest, not to mention the fact that it totally invalidates the whole "anonymous" part of AA/NA for both the nurse AND the sponsor.....just some of my thoughts :)

You nailed it Larry!!!.....Now if the people with the authority to do something about it could "get it" maybe we'd get somewhere..its sooooo frustrating!

It is a privilege which is earned by meeting (and continuing to meet) requirements set by the licensing board under statutory authority granted it by the state. Yes!!!, BUT!!, If the "requirements" are things like, forced attendence to religious meetings then thats UNCONSTITUTIONAL!!!.....and keep in mind the circuit courts have ALREADY RULED THAT THE 12 STEPS ARE INDEED RELIGIOUS!!!.....and these alternative programs do this ALL THE TIME, they only offer 12 step programs and that's not right and its illegal.

I know Tommy and Lemonhead have info on these lawsuits, its been too long and I don't have it anymore (lost it in my computer "upgrade" a couple months ago )......The lawsuits are out there, there just haven't been enough press to make them very well known....Tommy?...You still have this info somewhere?? :stone

Its refreshing to see somebody actually admit that there is more than one way to conquer drugs and alcohol.....and that we shouldn't be forced to any one "program", I agree that we (the addicts) need to be doing something BUT there should be CHOICES!!...There are many "programs" out there and no one will work for everyone.....but give us a choice and use body fluid testing to confirm our abstinence.....Sounds like a decent plan to me!!.....Thanks for listening Tweety!! :)

Tweety, as far as the 12 steps are concerned, your past is NEVER your past, you're not allowed to let go of it, because you are to hash and rehash because if you don't you're gonna "relapse".....You're supposed to dredge up every ugly detail of everything you've EVER done during a fourth and fifth step....and once you've done that, its STILL not over, cuz you don't just do the steps once, you do them over and over and over again.....They do not allow you to heal and let go, and that's really frustrating for people like myself who feel like "I made a HUGE mistake I've paid dearly for it and yet gotten better, now I just want to move on in my life, cuz that chapter is CLOSED!".....Heaven forbid a person says something like this in a meeting, you would be told you are "heading for a relapse", your "disease is rearing its head again", you're "a dry drunk, go back out and use again til you're REALLY ready to submit", I have heard ALL of these said at meetings more than once, and in different meetings and different towns and its soooooooo wrong.

OK, but can you guys not see how inappropriate it is for people like this to be "counseling" people like the "17 year old" or anyone for that matter?!?.....and the kicker is that MANY people not just nurses, are FORCED to make their life decisions thru these people, how safe is that???..ie. sponsors and group thought.....and if you really think it doesn't happen or that its just one or two specific instances, then you are truly naive. These "predators" seek out environments like this to find their prey, people that are VERY vulnerable and trusting....Its truly frightening. :stone