basid786

Congrats to you all.... I applied as well. I thought I did really well on the phone interview (least i thought) but they didnt select me for the next round. I have a 3.7 gpa, BSN, a year of nurse tech experience but still didnt get selected. Mind I ask what qualifications you posses to be selected for an interview?

Just finished mine. I was told im moving foward and my interview lasted about 13 minutes. It says "in review" so hopefully I should get that call in mid december as she said.

WOW...i havent been on this post in a huge while. Anyways just wanted to say I finally got my degree. WOO HOO! Now I just need to find a job. : / l0l Took me much longer than I expected thanks to that hellish experiance but hey things happen for a reason I guess.

Wow...no offense but don't ever become a lawyer. My instance was different in the sense she was a good distance away from me and I was still able to follow her immediately when she got up. and I did not have a physical stimulus (ie. the car stopping or someone causing a noise) to get back to reality. I don't get it. If I fell asleep....THAN WHY DID MAKE THIS POST!!!!? To waste my time? I mean what pleasure will I get? And Thank you BABIESRUS for realizing what others are not simply getting. If I fell asleep. I wouldn't argue. FAIL ME! I deserve it. But I did not. I mean several minutes before I'm perfect, I shadowed 2 nurses, with no incident or comments and than suddenly a few moments later I'm SLEEPING?! I'm not narcoleptic here people. That is what makes it so maddening. :angryfire I basically failed because "I looked tired". And that is a MISTAKE I WILL TAKE PART 100%. But I pray to God someone on this board does not state by looking tired, you should also fail. But than again I'm sure someone is. "I still find it very difficult to believe that one incident unless very very serious and done with intent could get anyone male or female expelled from a nursing program on the last day. I would think that instructors would have to answer to someone higher in that instance and it would have to be determined without a doubt that whatever the incident was was done with malious and knowledge of the outcome." Thank you same here! And now you realize my agitation! I went to the higher ups, and that was my argument but it obviously it did not work. I mean you know a reason is not good enough by itself if the administration attaches false facts with the dismissal. For example, my clinical instructor stated my performance and paper work was not sufficient. I proved it otherwise to the committee because I have documentation that proved that was false. So the committee changed thier reasoning behind it to some other fasle accusations. I proved that was also false to the V.P. of the school and she didnt mention any of the previous accusations. Rather just "you put a patients in danger" and "you had a chance to correct this mistakes earlier but you never did". I emailed her seveal times already discussing where in the world did she get that info about me having clinical issues and not correcting them. I have all documentation and my performance was great as well as feedback, but she has refused to answer my emails, stating just simply "my decision is final". What a shock, I can't say I'm surprised but at the very least I should have a good explanation as why I was dismissed.

Yah, thanks! I just hope it transfers, because I really don't want to start all over from scratch. Otherwise I am going to graduate hopefully in May and than find an accelerated school for 12 months for fall 09. And graduate summer 2010. I guess it's going to be a long road but hey no point in giving up right!? PS. I love how you guys ASSUME I fell asleep. I even called the hospital after the incident to get a tape of that day because I know the tape will show I DID NOT FALL ASLEEP. I followed her the second she got up, IMPOSSIBLE if I was sleeping. And let me state this again...the nurse report is not 100% accurate. She wrote that 2 weeks after the incident happened. So there are certain elements that are not accurate. Now obviously, you may think this is going to be a he said vs. she said thing :argue: but unfortunately thats the case. But I'm just glad there is light at the end of the tunnel....:nuke:

OK sorry I been away for such a long time. I took the advice from this board and I actually found a school! They are in the process of seeing if my classes will transfer, which I am praying it will and they said I can very well start this January! So thanks everyone! I actually did find some interesting posts. It seems there are several common themes in this thread in support for my dismissal. 1) "You shouldn't have told the patient you were tired". This argument is horrible. Does anyone even know the circumstances as to how the conversation played out? No. Did I just walk in and say "hello my name is Basid and I am very tired". No, I did not. Rather, we had a long conversation, she stated she was tired. I stated that "Yah, I can relate with you on that because I am a nursing student" and from there we talked about several things. Now you can argue that I should have not said that, but I thought that was a good way to start a convo. And it worked, and we actually had a nice chat. You people seem to forget I am a student! So maybe I should have not said that. Whats so difficult about a clinical instructor saying "dont do that" and than explain it. Because I never read anything about it, and I am here to learn. Key word: LEARN. Also keep in mind, me telling the patient that info was not once mentioned by the nurse who wrote the report or cited for the reason for my dismissal from my school. It's irrrelevant, that is not a reason to get kicked out of a nursing program. And anyone that thinks that needs to realize that people make mistakes and are not perfect. I learned not to do that next time...why did I have to get expelled. Did I have to fail to learn that? That logic doesn't make no sense. It's just subjective nothing else. 2) "You had or may have showed inconsistent behvior prior to this incident". The only prior incident to this was my mid term evaluation. I was told "watch tardies" and it was IMMEDIATLY FIXED. Why should a previous issue that is addressed and fixed return to haunt me? That makes no sense. We had students in mid term stating "work on medication admin" or "careful to work on the 5 rights of a patient". But, as long as the issue is resolved, that should be the main focus. We are students, were learning. We make mistakes, and we are told to correct them and how. If we dont follow through, that is our mistake. So other than that, there was nothing about my performance that was an issue. Basically, second half of the semester was perfect, no issues at all. 3) "You were tired, shouldn't have been there". What a thoughtless remark. Seriously, the some of the people in this board have a VERY narrow sense of logic. "DONT COME IF YOU ARE TIRED", that makes no sense. What does it matter if you are tired, if you can fufill your duties? Keep in mind the hospital I work at has beds and a break room for nurses, WITH BEDS! Why? Because they know they come to work tired at times. I dont care who you are...as a nurse you will come tired and you will be tired when your 12/13 hour shift ends. So what if your tired?! Can you do your job very professionaly? If the answer is yes than everything should be fine. And in my case it was fine, I could have easily took care of that patient. I sat on a chair on my A** for nearly 15minutes and started to looked tired. That suddenly jumps to "You put the patient in danger", sorry but I cant accept that. 4. "You fell asleep". For the last time...I DID NOT FALL ASLEEP. I repeat I DID NOT FALL ASLEEP. I followed the nurse immediatly the instant she got up to see that patient the second time. So if you are going to put that in your post don't bother, I was there. You were not. Dont speak for me. Ps. Why dont I just admit I made an error and move on? I have moved on. I am taking 24 credits currently and about to gradutate in May with a health science degree (asssuming I dont transfer in Jan). But im sorry, I will never admit that I deserved to get kicked out of nursing. The punishment does not fit the crime in ANY WAY. I do admit, I should have not said that I can relate to the patient, and it would have been better to just walk out from the unit but I didnt. That was my mistake. Thanks again guys! And I will let everyone know what happens with my reults from the nursing school.

It is DIFFICULT! I have several schools. Many of them say you need a letter of good standing from your last school. I obviously dont have that. That's im so upset. If i could repeat, I wouldnt care much. But 2 years and 20 grand...down the drain. VERY DEPRESSING. =(

Yah thanks everyone!! And I will talk to a lawyer soon, just to see what my options are. Busy with my new major "health sciences administration" = / But I will keep you guys posted as to what happens.

I GOT EXPELLED! Tardies? I had three, I was told to fix it. And after being told to fix it (during mid term evaluation that was only negative thing said) I promptly did. No incidents after that. This is documented This is why I'm fighting this. If I believed I am at fault and deserved to get expelled for this incident I would accept it. But I cant. Start all over? I cant find a school that will accept nursing credits. And I was just about to graduate. This all seems like a nightmare...you have no idea.

OK I see what everyone is saying. But I cant reapply! They rejected my last appeal! Now what will i do? Does anyone know any school in this entire nation that will transfer previous nursing credits? I called several schools, and I still haven't found one that said they can. P.S. I still reject the notion of me putting that patient in danger. Fire alarm? A code? I was up and running the whole day. I may have not looked very active but I was. Remember, I followed her IMMEDIATELY the second she got up to see the patient the second time. I was not dozing off or sleeping and that proves it. I am more surprised if anything how some people in this board are not the least bit sympathetic. My freinds and classmates are furious at the decision b/c its based off subjective descriptions and the punishment does not fit the crime. People in this board are assuming I came in walking half dead or I slacked off. No, I was perfectly fine for the entire shift. I was in ICU, I was in front of colleagues, nurses, doctors but nothing was said because I just "looked tired". I was ready to go and able to work and I demonstrated this throughout the day. Now suddenly I sit on this chair, feeling a sudden fatigue and she has her back at me doing her paper work. So now, I'm putting patient lives in danger because I look very tired because I have nothing to do?! ( Yes I did beds, and I even tried to clean the bathroom, I did everything, I was an A student in med surg keep in mind. I'm not stupid. Also keep in mind the "whole eyes closing, nodding off and jerking side to side to stay awake" is really not an appropriate description. I forgot to mention she wrote that report 2 weeks after it happened (yes the report is dated 2 weeks late). There were some details wrong about her description of me. Why cant no one assume that she MAY HAVE interpreted my appearance differently? Why did it take so long for her to write it? According to my friend who spoke with her, she said "your clinical instructor told me to write it" and walked away never to come back. She didn't want to write it, which is why she ignored the school's messages for so long. If I was such a danger, why didn't she write it? Why take so long? Why was she practically forced to do it? Now one can make an argument that she did not want me to get expelled from nursing school, but lets use common sense here, if that was the case she could have written a better report. That is not the case at all, and please no one assume that. Anyways, I got my answers. Thanks everyone. Some people here seriously need to relax by the way. I don't care what anyone says, everyone has looked extremely tired at least once at some point while being in clinical. Even I have seen it with the nurses working there, but some people interpret things differently. That is fact. But as long as your running about and taking care of your patients (as I was the entire day) and not impaired in judgment, there should be nothing wrong with being tired. But thats my opinion... thank you everyone.

That makes perfect sense (on them being able to dismiss those nurses but the reasons I question). But that does not apply to me. Keep in mind those nurses came to an environment in which they already bound themselves to a written contract which stated their erroneous behavior. I however, did not have such wording in my contract. The contract which I am referring to is the syllabus, school catalog and the student nurse handbook. None state anything about the rules and conditions about missing a clinical day due to fatigue. That is why I was required to come. I did not have a choice. But I was responsible and told my instructor about my LOC. She than had the responsibility to either send me home or stay. I could have went home, got a unexcused absence, and would have had to make the day up. But no, she instead decided that I should shadow that day instead. I also told my nurse who wrote the report and the patient that I was also tired so I did all that I could. Keep in mind I was perfectly fine without incident for several hours until I was left to do nothing while sitting on a chair. That was not something I was anticipating, which is why I did not dismiss myself prior to that incident. Thanks for the response!

"In my program's rules it did say that being excessively fatigued or suffering from sleep deprivation while in clinical is reason for dismissal. You're sure there's nothing in your program's rules about this?" NO it does not. I looked at every single rule with a lawyer. That's why I have a case. I did not do anything that I was not warned about. If it did, than I would understand, but it does not. In fact it lists a set of incidents that can constitute course failure, none of which I did. This is why I'm fighting this decision.

Thanks for the responses people! I'm getting a really good picture of the situation and how the school is thinking as well. But just one more thing... OK so what I'm getting from everyone is that i made a great error in telling the patient I was tired. I should have not done that because as a patient, she probably got worried (most patients would), and told the nurse how she felt. However, I forgot to mention that when I told the patient I was tired, I specifically told her I was not taking care of her. We even laughed about it, after stating that. She knew I was just there to observe. So she did not say anything to the nurse because I was there the entire time in conversation with her, talking about nursing school and finals and such. Nothing was said that would make the nurse feel uncomfortable following me to see the patient again but the nurse just felt like doing it b/c she "thought" I was too tired. Another point of contention is the area of me putting a patient in danger. Again can someone on this board answer how exactly, (as an observer) could have harmed this SPECIFIC patient in this SPECIFIC incident. I keep hearing, that you could have harmed the patient if I was nurse, but thats also assuming I was a nurse in a hospital, and assuming I took a morning position and assuming I came to work extremely tired with nothing to do. There seems to be a great deal of assumptions and hypotheticals at work here. Lets concentrate on the specific incident and on that specific patient. Let assume I came late after lunch, the teacher can than fail me because she states "you could have had a patient waiting for your services and you put that patient in danger" and I fail. I say logic, reasoning and objectivity should be placed on my dismissal. Remember, I can't go back. And going to another nursing school is going to take significant time and money. Lastly, let me make this clear... I DID NOT FALL ASLEEP. If I did, why would I be arguing? Because I did not. The nurse herself herself didn't claim I fell asleep. You can assume I did, but at the same time, I can argue I didn't. No one saw me physically sleeping, and I followed her immediately when she got up. That alone states I wasn't asleep. By the way...my clinical instructor asked who wanted to take patient assignments. I said no, on the basis that I could learn more as an observer that day. In addition to feeling fatigued, I felt that I could take the observer position as a better learning experience. I could have easily taken a patient assignment but felt that an observer assignment would benefit me better. There is nothing wrong with that, nor does it say anything about it in the syllabus or student handbook (I looked) coming clinical tired is not recommended. On the last day everyone was tired, and we all verbally expressed that. But no one was barely able to walk or talk or comprehend directions (same goes for me) but put us in a room with nothing to do or watch, you would naturally be able to see fatigue. Again I see nothing wrong with this, as long as you can take care of your patient. thanks to everyone again for their input. I do appreciate this.

i hope that is not part of your argument and you are just venting. the reality is student nurses fall under a similar practice as registered nurses; we cannot come to work impaired. being "too tired" to remain alert is considered impaired in most states. the excuse for being too tired was made for having a patient assignment. i made it clear i was felt too tired to have a patient assignment. thus i was told to observe and watch that day along with several other students who felt the same way. thus, i was not impaired but rather took the safest route possible. it was the last day of clinical and everyone was more worn out and i didn't feel comfortable having a patient that day. but that is not an excuse to miss clinical. i assumed "tell the instructor how you feel, and she will determine whether to stay or not". she said "just shadow and observe" which i did. but when there was nothing to observe or watch i looked very tired. it's completely logical and makes sense. yes, but that is in direct contrast to this incident, which one can argue means that your performance is inconsistent overall. actually that logic is incorrect. it is more appropriate to state that several seeks of passing marks without incident show my consistency. a outlier does not reflect a person's entire scope of performance but rather should be looked as an "isolated incident". this does not matter. the incident still occurred despite your earlier performance. this is similar to a nurse making a med error on one patient in the pm but passed the other meds with success in the am and defending his/her self by noting that fact. . i made this remark to rebuke any idea of me coming to clinical "impaired". i want to prove that i was perfectly capable of being in icu, and obviously capable of being in a non-emergency fast track system. it looks like the nurse was specific in his/her description of your behaviors. understand that if he/she said you fell asleep, then the statement would have assumed too much. stating that he/she observed you in this way gives a clear idea to the school of the behaviors that were seen, which is what they will probably use to counter any suit. actually if she stated "he was asleep, and i had to wake him up" that would have been fine. so was "he was sleeping". but it is direct observation and would have been much better (according to several attorneys). the fact remains, is that it states i was jerking myself side to side to stay awake. key word: stay awake. i was not asleep. accusations in which state i fell asleep are wrong. that is what i would like to make clear. if i was asleep, how was i able to immediately follow the nurse the moment she got up and went to the patients room? fyi, that was not a good thing to do. if you want people to write on your behalf, they need to focus on what they observed about you or the incident. i am not a lawyer but i would not be surprised if their statements would be considered hearsay and be of no use to you... i wrote this because, i want people to understand that i was not the only student who came to clinicals tired. i wanted to explain that people came just as tired as me, but said it was a one time incident. things like this happen to students, we are trying to learn after all and we make mistakes. um... that is what they did otherwise you would not have this information. in fact, this may be a case where your performance, which put someone in danger gives them the right to make the decision that results in your dismissal from the program. this information may be found in your nursing student handbook... it is in mine (not spelled out in normal people speak... it is in vague legal speak). as you can see it is not impossible to interpret your behaviors as dangerous. however, if you want to fight then do so. my advice is similar to the other... i think you are wasting your time if you wish to re-apply. i have read this board for three years now. i have seen students dismissed for the craziest of things that were interpreted in such a way that their actions (or lack there of) may have caused patient harm or had potential to do so. i have yet to see one student who fought a long hard fight post being a nurse today. on the other hand, students that were dismissed and acknowledged errors (even as minor as providing comfort to a patient and family before the irate assigned nurse had done so) have posted that he/she are nurse today. they did not give me any recommendations to improve during my midterm evaluation. only "work on tardies" which was immediately fixed, and documentation to support the claim. in addition, the whole concept of putting a danger is rather subjective. if anything, i would like to know, how exactly could i have put this specific patient in danger? now if you are stating what the school states claiming" if you were a nurse" but i am not one. i am a student, who is learning. making mistakes and then learning not to do it again. what are we showing here, that this incident proves without doubt that my performance demands failure? there is doubt in this accusation, and as nurses we are told never to go with doubts or assumptions. i just don't understand. i want to move on, but i can't. i owe 20,000 dollars. all because of an assumption, which states i "probably put a patient" in danger because i "probably fell asleep". my last appeal failed. i no choice but to seek legal action. =(

missed something...did you go to sleep at your clinical site? How can you be dismissed for being tired? I did not fall asleep. The letter that the nurse wrote to the university stated that "my eyes were closed, nodding off, and jerking himself side to side to stay awake". I say the key word is ..."To stay awake". So obviously I didn't fall asleep, because she would have simply put that. They claim that I did fall asleep, and now I think they just simply stating that I had "the potential" to put patients in danger. "Unfortunately, the nurse told my clinical instructor what happened." What did she tell them? What happened, exactly? That I do not know. The letter in which she was practically forced to write explained everything. I called the nurse, and she never answered. I let my friend go speak with her, and upon being confronted about the letter she immediately turned around, walked away, stating "his clinical instructor told me to write it" and her manager escorted my friend out. I want to talk to her. What should I do?

The school is a private school and this is what happened. It was my last day of clinical (and last 6 months) and I was supposed to shadow a nurse in the emergency fast track (basically a department dedicated for non emergency care). When I was put there, there were no patients around because the department just opened. So what we did was just talk and after a while she started working on her paper work. This lasted for a good 20 minutes until our first patient arrived. Unfortunately at this point, I was very tired and I came inside with the patient. Everything was fine, I told the patient I was very tired because I stayed up the night before working on a paper and that today was my last clinical. After that was done, the nurse again started working on her paper work. Again, I just sat there for like almost 10min. Finally she got up, ready to give a shot to the patient, and I immediately followed her but she told me to stay. After this, she came back and that was the end. We sat for another half hour doing absolutely nothing. I even went to every patient room to look busy and went to the bathroom to clean it but still I had a great deal of free time. I sat on my chair again, and again started looking very tired. After the shift finally ended my nursing instructor came down to relieve me. Unfortunately, the nurse told my clinical instructor what happened. My clinical instructor was furious, and a long story short she than told the dean. And then during my clinical evaluation they failed me. I still don't understand why. I was tired, that was all. They forced the nurse to write a report about what happened, and by force I mean the dean calling that nurse several times for nearly 2 weeks until the nurse finally wrote the report. Under why I failed it stated because of inconsistencies in performance, and paper work. However, all my paperwork was fine. I passed with everything with at least B's. The same applied to performance. I argued and argued but no avail. Last week the V.P. of academic affairs gave me my final appeal decision which was that the nursing committee decision stands. Her final decision is "had the POTENTIAL to put patients as risk". This doesn't make sense. If I wanted to, I could have just told the nurse I am feeling very fatigued and I need to leave. We as nursing students have every right to do that if it may endanger a patient. But obviously that was not the case because I chose to observe that day rather than having a patient assignment, as did others because it was the last day. I am furious. I want to sue under breach of contract, (nothing states I cannot come to clinical being tired) and being arbitrary and capricious in their decision. Any advice? What do I need to prove to win? Please help. Additional details All charges against me have been false. From paperwork to performance (have weekly clinical evaluation forms that state I was performing well. I passed all paperwork as wel. I was in the ICU earlier that morning, without incident. Under the watch of many medical personal. No one complained. The nurse report stated "his eyes were closing, nodding off, and jerking himself side to side to stay awake". It does not say I fell asleep. Allegations which the department said I did. I have other nursing students who wrote for me stating that they observed others being extremely tired to clinical. And displayed similar behavior themselves. But no consequences, because obviously it was a onetime thing. (Just like my incident). I was never warned, it was out of nowhere. Previous landmark decisions in court have stated that students are entitled to be told of their inferior performance, in order to improve. I was not told this. And again documentation states I was progressing well. Nothing is objective. Nobody say me physically sleeping. It's one nurse assumption that I was very tired. The school is interpretating the incident as me putting a patient in danger. Impossible seeing that I had no patient assignment. I was merely an observer.