aklim3

You were actually taught to read X-rays??? Good for you. I wasn't. I will have to take a course on it myself someday. Till then, I have to rely on others to read it for me. IF your track is a research one, it would be useful. However, if you plan to be more clinical, it should be offered as an elective. Agreed. However, someday, I might be playing "Nursing Trivial Pursuit" and might need the nursing theory to compete.

That is why I asked, what will this added hurdle do for me? Ok, it is not as much work as a PhD but it is more than an MSN. Will this fluff make me a better clinician? Probably not.

In Other Words.

IOW, the DNP is going to have more fluff and no real clinical benefits?

Sorry, I must have missed that part. So you are saying with my BSN, I can go straight into the DNP? How much longer will it take then when compared to the current MSN program?

ok. convince me why i should pursue being an np then. if i have to go that far to be an np (bsn, msn and dnp), why don't i just go to the md route? more money, no collaboration, etc, etc. imo, it will kill the np program. otoh, what is the advantage of the dnp? will i practice better? how will it improve the way i do things? how am i, with a msn, deficient when compared to an md that the dnp will address? i am not against the dnp program. however, before i see it as necessary to practice, i would like some studies to prove the efficacy.

I guess you need to find out when you will graduate and see if you fall under the rule.

Why not cut out the fluff classes and add more clinicals in it? Some of my classes are wonderful if I were going further on in the research field. I'd gladly have dropped them and done more clinical classes. Let whoever wants take the business and political classes on the side or as electives or whatever. Increase the core clinical classes from say 3 to 5 clinical classes. We might be able to find room if we jettison the not so clinical classes from the core requirements and put them as electives. I spent a semester in UW MAdison doing Advanced Med Surg. I was writing a paper on the latest developments of lycopenes. Even the instructor couldn't give a justification for the long paper with respect to the class although I am thinking that is her research subject or one of them. With that sort of thing, I would be nervous about coming out to practice and feel not prepared. This is the sort of fluff I would like taken out. IF I were given a choice between that or another 2 clinical classes, I know what I would choose.

I am not as interested in the title of Doctor. Now if you tell me that I can be on par with an MD after all that work and practice independently and not have to have a supervising or collaborating physician if I get my DNP, that might be something to work for. However, if it is the same old, same old, why bother?

Maybe there should be a study to determine one way or the other. I would welcome that. IF I were inadequate, then I would not mind going thru a DNP program if that is what is called for. Just going thru it "just cos" is a difficult pill to swallow. The first 2 points can be answered by having a proper study comissioned to see if the program is lacking and what needs to be done to address it. Otherwise we might be doing things that are not necessary and not doing things that are. Before you jump, you had best look. Seems to me like we are jumping but not even bothering to look at what we are jumping into. IF you are an RN, how long would it take you to go thru the MSN program and then the DNP program, part time? More than 4 years I would think. Takes about 3-5 for the MSN program itself unless you work at 0.5 FTE status or less. I worked 1.0 and then 0.7 for the last year and a half and did it in 5 yrs. Add a DNP to that and you might be looking at another 5. One of my friends is doing a Phd and started the same time I did and is still doing it. All that considered, it might be at least 8 yrs from RN, BSN to RN DNP. If I were a RN and younger, it might make more sense financially to go to the MD route since I should have my loans paid off in the years to come especially if I hook up with some rural hospitals that pay off my loans if I work for them.

Not doing that intentionally that I know of. I know that. What I want to know and perhaps phrased badly is that a little while back, someone mentioned that there was a study that said the MSN prepared NPs provided similar levels of care to the MDs. What I want to know is how much better care will a DNP provide to justify the further coursework and $$ that will be spent? As I have asked before, why would you need it? To be better is the stock answer. Better how? If the results are the same as an MD which is the standard for comparison then why? Would they as DnPs have more privillages, money or what to justify the expense? If not, why would I want a DnP instead of an MD degree?

OK. How? Are MSN NPs giving lower standard of care compared to MDs? Non specialty of course. And with a DNP, what else will they get to do that an MSN doesn't?

but will it change those who go thru the dnp route? how much better will it make them? target date is 2015? ok. what about the difference between a 2014 msn np and a 2015 dnp np? will it change the way either practices in a positive sense? iow, will i be better off seeing the 2014 msn or the 2015 dnp? will there be much of a dnp crop then? can you explain why i would want the hassle of a dnp to be a "mini doctor" when i can do the same thing and go for the "full monty" with more money, more independence and more advancement?

Didn't read this post yet before I replied. Oh well. Rodney Atkins has a song about that Well you know those times When you feel like there's a sign there on your back Say's I don't mind if ya kick me Seems like everybody has Things go from bad to worse You'd think they can't get worse than that And then they do You step off the straight and narrow And you don't know where you are Use the needle of your compass To sew up your broken heart Ask directions from a genie In a bottle of Jim Beam And she lies to You That's when you learn the truth If you're going through hell Keep on going, Don't slow down If you're scared, don't show it You might get out Before the devil even knows you're there Well I been deep down in that darkness I been down to my last match Felt a hundered different demons Breathing fire in my back And I knew that if I stumbled I'd fall right into the trap that they were laying, Yeah But the good news Is there's angels everywhere out on the street Holding out a hand to pull you back upon your feet The one's that you been dragging for so long You're on your knees You might as well be praying Guess what I'm saying If you're going through hell Keep on going, Don't slow down If you're scared, don't show it You might get out Before the devil even knows you're there Yeah, If you're going through hell Keep on moving, Face that fire Walk right through it You might get out Before the devil even knows you're there If you're going through hell Keep on going, Don't slow down If you're scared, don't show it You might get out Before the devil even knows you're there Yeah, If you're going through hell Keep on moving, Face that fire Walk right through it You might get out Before the devil even knows you're there Yeah you might get out Before the devil even knows you're there Yeah.

Well, firstly, how honest can you be with yourself? You don't have to post the answers here but you need to ask yourself some hard questions. I got paid the same as I would in my nursing job with 10 yrs experience. Only difference is 8-5 hours and no every other weekend. Is that an issue with you? What are your plans? You will earn more as an MD but with specialization opportunities. You are young yet. If I was your age, I'd go MD but I was 38 when I started this route so the money won't be there before I retire after paying off all the loans and all that. There is talk of having to have a DnP but I don't think it will affect you. Check carefully and be careful because if it does, you will probably be better of as an MD. It is your life but if you are going to be doing the same thing for less money, are you willing to live with that? Of course, if you do think you might want to be a specialist like in Cardio, Neuro, etc, etc, you have to go the MD route. That is the one that will earn the big bucks. As I said before, you don't need to spill your guts here. However, you need to be honest with yourself. How much is the money worth to you?

Needed how? Has anyone proved thru any studies that as a MSN NP you are not adequate? If so, you might be right. It is a great thing but until someone can show some concrete proof, how do you know it is needed? IOW, can you say with certainty that as an MSN NP I am not equal to the task? Take an equally experienced NP and an MD or DO and run them thru the gauntlet and then we can see whether the MSN NP is inadequate or not. I think previously, it was shown that MSN NPs were equal to the task. If this is true then having a DnP is good but not needed. If not then it is both good and needed. You familiar with the saying that a Jack of all trades is a master of none? Looking at the practical point of economics. If I were a student, Convince me that I should be an NP not an MD if I have to go that far. With all the years I have to spend is school, why should I be an NP instead of an MD when the pay, independence and advancement is way, way greater? As an MD I automatically get more money. As an MD, I get more independence. (no supervising or even collaborating physician and I can set up my own shop on my own steam). As an MD I can specialize and earn a whole lot more money than an NP.

Didn't think you were abrupt. Was just thinking of dinner and steak

Tried that but the fluffmasters still caught me

Whoops. My bad. I meant DEA number.

But if they took out the fluff and put in what you say, would we really need a DNP? It sounds like we need the DNP to compensate for the fluff that we got.

I think someone mentioned it earlier that it would be better if we took all the fluff out of the MSN. That's my point. Also some schools will not accept you to the MSN program until you have had X number of years as a RN, IIRC. With that eqation you outlined you are not considering advancement. As an MD, I can specialize and earn way more than most NPs can because they cannot move into many other departments. Now if you are going to say "I want to be an NP and money is not a consideration because XXXXXX" that is a whole different issue. However, money is still going to be an important selling point. Further to that, NPs have less independence than an MD. An MD can set up shop where he/she pleases. An NP has to have a collaborating MD. So, that is 2 strikes. That is why I ask, what will anyone be able to say to a student when they are considering whether to become an NP or MD?

Offering a higher degree for you to choose IS a good idea. What I am saying is that to mandate it will kill the NP program. IF you cannot be sure that it is going to improve the level of care, why mandate it? To compare apples to apples, how long would it take to be an MD vs NP if it was mandated that you need to be a DNP to practice as an NP. Assuming both were going to school full time? Compare where our two students are after that. One has independence while the other is still tied to the MD. One makes more money than the other. So, why would I choose to be an NP then? Where is the advantage of being an NP over the MD?

I thought they don't have the FDA number to write scripts? Not sure, just asking.

money is more quantifiable. in any case, i don't think that anyone has proven that an md gives better treatment than an np, have they? as an np, i am still tied to an md. as an md, i can set up shop where i like without an rn, np or whatever. so, if i have to put in the same number of years of education, what is in in for me to be an np vs an md? this is comparing an internal med md vs a fnp or anp. lets say i am a sophmore in kollege. sell me the idea of being an np if i have to get a doctorate vs getting an md. same result, more freedom and more money. lets say i am an rn, bsn. or rn, adn. sell me the ide of being an np vs an md. isn't it harder to go to md school vs np school? i did my np bit by bit. would md school be just as accomodating scheduling wise? now, if the difference between an msn and a dnp is there, that might be something to go on. if i get this dnp and can do more, make more money, etc, etc, it might be worth the effort. however, as someone previously mentioned, there is no real difference between an np and an md as to the outcome. so, what is the point of more schooling? how much better will it prepare me? iow, what is in it for me for all the sacrifice? if we cannot answer that question, how will you sell the program to the 2 above mentioned cases? all either will have to ask you is "why should i spend all that time and money in school to be an np when i can have way more for a bit more sacrifice being an md?" i suspect that if asked that question and the answer is not satisfactory, all it will do is kill the np programs. iow, if i can be an md and have more, why would i want to be an np? if people go to being an md, there would be fewer and fewer nps. btw, what is the positive of being a dnp anyways? how will it benifit me and my patient? is there anything to prove that an msn is insufficient? i mean, we can always have more and more knowledge but whether it is economical is another story.

$3.125 is only one part of the picture. When you go to school, you cannot run a full workload. That means money lost. That money loss is larger when you consider the interest you would have made if you had that money. IF you took out a loan, add that to the money. Also, if you had been working, you might have more opportunity for advancement. So, add that all together and what do you have for that $3.125 an hour more?