After posting the piece about Nurses traveling to Germany and reading the feedback. I would like to open up a debate on this BB about "Universal Health Care" or "Single Payor Systems"
In doing this I hope to learn more about each side of the issue. I do not want to turn this into a heated horrific debate that ends in belittling one another as some other charged topics have ended, but a genuine debate about the Pros and Cons of proposed "Universal Health Care or Single Payor systems" I believe we can all agree to debate and we can all learn things we might not otherwise have the time to research.
I am going to begin by placing an article that discusses the cons of Universal Health Care with some statistics, and if anyone is willing please come in and try to debate some of the key points this brings up. With stats not hyped up words or hot air. I am truly interested in seeing the different sides of this issue. This effects us all, and in order to make an informed decision we need to see "all" sides of the issue. Thanks in advance for participating.
Michele
I am going to have to post the article in several pieces because the bulletin board only will allow 3000 characters.So see the next posts.
Our money is going to the Middle East that's why. I for one don't want socialized medicine. Do some searching for stories about Canada's failing system. The six month waits for pain management, surgeries, buying in bulk the cheapest hip replacement prostheses, docs trying to get out of the system into private practice. It's not a pretty sight.
Just because CA's system doen't work as well as it could, doesn't mean that a functional one couldn't be developed.
There seem to be those that cannot or willnot believe we will not fall into the clutches of the demon communists if we have universal healthcare.What seems so ironic is that the wonderful capitalist corporations are now also advocating getting rid of the private healthcare system because even they cannot afford it anymore, hmmmm... does this mean that our capitalist corporations are turning commie? Oy veh, capitalist, communist,confusion.
Our money is going to the Middle East that's why. I for one don't want socialized medicine. Do some searching for stories about Canada's failing system. The six month waits for pain management, surgeries, buying in bulk the cheapest hip replacement prostheses, docs trying to get out of the system into private practice. It's not a pretty sight.
And I opine that our system is just as screwed up - just differently. Some people get too much intervention and others not enough because most of what we do is based on voodoo rather than science. It took humans to evolve to the 20th century to accepting evidence based care as the sine qua non! So much of medicine is practitioners just grinding out patients to conform to their own personal agendas (usually dollars). If its true that patients have to wait six months for pain management (not sure what this means)then that system is surely broken. However, I see a lot of titanium deposited into patients who are not going to walk again, patients who should be in hospice dying in ICU's and the frail elderly being given every procedure billable just because the orifaces are lined up with the hospital admission. I would rather be treated by a physician who is paid well for coming to work, not only for generating procedures and in this country, only the MD's who do things to you reap the financial rewards they seek. The lowly internist is relegated to the bottom of the financial and status totem pole. If you were setting up a medical care system in a brand new country, would you repeat what we have?
The EVIL corporations are out to get us. Gee, I guess that means anyone with investments in those corps. are evil, right? After all they want to profit from their money they have invested. That includes the shareholders in the drug companies as well, you know all those little EVIL guys and gals. Peolple, stay with me here. Newsflash. A socialist agenda is a socialist agenda. The location does not make it different. Nazi Germany, Stalinist Russia, Italy under Mussolini. America under increasing socialistic ideas. And gee they have all worked SOOOOO well. We could probably do better. It's just an experiment. CAPITALISM WORKS! Any problem you point out with the political system we have today can be solved by getting a meddling government out of the system. Oh, and the comments about the commies taking over. You are right here. We don't even have to travel to see them. They are the peolple who push for government control of medicine. Remember the S in USSR stood for socialist. It's not a location thing. It's a mindset. And you got me on the Federalist Papers. I am absolutely positive they would deplore communists. And I bet they would deplore your ideas of healthcare. They were real big on independance, self-sufficiency, and an end to the ties with a government of tyranny. I know it's hard to understand. They wrote the antiquated, out-dated, way behind the times document, the Constitution. You see, the words on the document are explained in the Federalist Papers. It's like the Davis Drug Guide for the founders. It explains their thinking and what they said really means. So, I'll bid you all farewell.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
Chrysler announced today it is to cut 13,000 jobs by 2009. Tell me where these laid offworkers are going to get their healthcare now. Tell me how the "free" market has helped them keep their jobs and their healthcare benefits. Tell me how American businesses can be competitive in a global market with the health benefits monkey on their back. Tell me how many people would have been able to keep their jobs if universal health care coverage had been implemented. The capitalization of healthcare via employer based health insurance is not working for Joe Public and it's not working for the employers of Joe Public.
"Chrysler Group posted a loss of $1.5 billion in the third quarter, compared to a profit of $374 million a year earlier, and a fourth-quarter loss is virtually certain after it was forced to slash production due to a glut of unsold trucks at dealers and parking lots around Detroit.
While the company won't discuss its turnaround plans, it is on record as saying it needs to win changes in its health care coverage for active and retired workers that the UAW already approved at GM and Ford.
The Center for Automotive Research estimates that the additional health care spending at Chrysler is costing the automaker about $600 a car, or more than $1.6 billion a year, compared to its U.S. competitors.
The health care costs are a particularly serious competitive problem for all the Big Three. Even at their U.S. factories, Asian automakers such as Toyota, Honda and Nissan do not have nearly the health care costs as GM, Ford or Chrysler, mostly since they don't have to worry about health care costs for a large population of retired workers. And at their Japanese plants, health care is a government-provided benefit.
Chrysler spent $2.2 billion on U.S. health care in 2006, with fully two-thirds of that going to cover retirees and their families."
People, it is time to change the system. What worked back in the 50's is not working today. Americans are losing jobs, the US trade deficit is at an all time high. How bad does it have to get?
"Former Columbia University Professor Robert O. Paxton has written that:
"Fascism may be defined as a form of political behavior marked by obsessive preoccupation with community decline, humiliation, or victim-hood and by compensatory cults of unity, energy, and purity, in which a mass-based party of committed nationalist militants, working in uneasy but effective collaboration with traditional elites, abandons democratic liberties and pursues with redemptive violence and without ethical or legal restraints goals of internal cleansing and external expansion."
Paxton further defines fascism's essence as:
"1. a sense of overwhelming crisis beyond reach of traditional solutions; 2. belief one's group is the victim, justifying any action without legal or moral limits; 3. need for authority by a natural leader above the law, relying on the superiority of his instincts; 4. right of the chosen people to dominate others without legal or moral restraint; 5. fear of foreign `contamination."
"This is not to say we don't have a medical mess on our hands. We do, but the problems have their roots in existing government activity. More such activity is unlikely to make things better.
The root of the problem is that few people face the true cost of medical care. Medicare and Medicaid beneficiaries don't because taxpayers pay their bills. People with employer-based medical insurance don't because insurance policies shield them from it. Since they pay only small co-pays when they see a doctor, they don't ask, "Do I really need that test?" but rather, "Does my insurance cover it?"
People who don't face the full cost of their choices don't act like cost-conscious consumers. Higher prices result...
Let the states experiment! Universal coverage is a feel-good idea that many people want Washington to impose. Better to have models of failure in individual states so we all don't have to suffer! We need living reminders of collectivism's faults."
Arnold's Health Care Reform Plan Is The Wrong Prescription
Every Californian has a clear stake in the current health care debate in Sacramento. More employers are slashing health care coverage for workers and their families, dropping coverage entirely, or forcing union members on strike to preserve hard-earned benefits. There's a solution, and it's not Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's health care plan….
… instead of a solution that will really solve the crisis, the plan proposed by Gov. Schwarzenegger, along with similar versions from the leaders of the Assembly and Senate, primarily serves to expand the role of the insurance industry in health care, and would force millions of Californians to accept substandard, unaffordable health plans.
Most insidious is the Governor's proposal to require all individuals to buy health insurance without any controls on insurance premiums, drug or hospital charges or standards to affirm that individuals are getting more than junk insurance.….
… That's not a universal health plan, it's a prescription for disaster…
… Only one health care reform proposal, SB 840, a single-payer system, can provide the health security California's working people need.
Under SB 840, you don't face the loss of health benefits if you lose your job or are forced out on strike. You don't face constant employer demands for concessions in the form of higher co-pays, deductibles, caps on coverage, and reduced medical care. You don't have to worry about retiree health care if you retire before age 65. And, you are no longer at the mercy of the insurance industry predators who routinely deny care.
By enacting SB 840 we can set a model for the nation and finally end our health care nightmare. Let's demand the best, not settle for the worst…
I agree Zashagalka, let the states experiment. We can all learn from mistakes and if the programs work we can tweak them so the MAJORITY can feel reassured that their healthcare wont be negatively affected.
I just have to tell this story, please bare with me. I was born in a displaced persons camp in Linz Austria after WW2. Our ethnically German families had lived in Croatia, Yugoslavia since 1720.We considered ourselves Yugoslavian citizens. With the Russians on our heels, our German communities were being systematically ethnically cleansed . The ones who stayed behind were put in work camps and gulags by the communists. Many were killed and died of starvation and hard work in the mines.All their farmlands were outrightly taken from them.The lucky ones like my family made it to Austria where we waited for 10 years to be allowed to emigrate to this wonderful country of ours.My mother was in such awe the first time she stepped into a grocery store, she could not believe her eyes at the amount of good food. Facism and Communism are not one and the same, but both are SO FAR removed from our system of government in this country, that when I hear the fear of a "socialist" ideology turning a democratic government into communism, its beyond ridiculous. We still have the right to a free vote, when this is taken away from us , then you will know what communism really is. I love and TRUST this country that gave my family refuge, warts and all.
Specializes in burn, geriatric, rehab, wound care, ER.
kashalga
I do not buy the car analogy that John Stossel uses
"After all, we don't buy auto insurance to pay for oil changes and worn-out windshield-wiper blades. But today, people expect medical insurance to cover routine physical exams because someone else seems to pay the premiums."
Preventative care is cost effective care. You know that. Compare the cost of antihypertensives to rehabilitation from a CVA. No funny math there.
You might be able to buy a replacement car, but last time I checked, you cant buy yourself a replacement body. If free is the incentive that people need to get preventative care, then free it is.
Oy veh, capitalist, communist,confusion.
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MS._Jen_RN, ASN, RN
348 Posts
Just because CA's system doen't work as well as it could, doesn't mean that a functional one couldn't be developed.
~Jen