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Socialised Medicine the myths and the facts

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madwife2002 has 26 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in RN, BSN, CHDN.

1 Follower; 74 Articles; 120,607 Profile Views; 4,777 Posts

Having worked in a country which has socialized medicine I can certainly see the pit falls and the benefits. What I don't understand is the fear behind having socialized medicine In my opinion socialized medicine has more positive benefits than negative benefits. You are reading page 37 of Socialised Medicine the myths and the facts. If you want to start from the beginning Go to First Page.

flonightingalesbro has 34 years experience and specializes in Intensive care.

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I have had three experiences with socialized/nationalized Health Care. I was born and lived in England for 19 years. If you wanted to see a Doctor (GP) you went to one of his surgery hours in the morning or afternoon. I sat in a small room with all manners of illnesses around me, including infectious ones. You were seen on a first come first served basis. I was born with Bipolar Disorder, and especially in High School had constant migraines, depression, and school phobia. My condition was never even talked about. The most treatment I received was a bottle of Parrish's Tonic to "buck me up". I came to America in 1971, undiagnosed, and under the belief that all my symptoms were just character flaws. The first hint that I might have a Psychiatric disorder was a Nurse Recruiter telling me I might consider it , after I quit after just one day with a massive anxiety attack. 1984 I was dx as Unipolar Depressive, 1994 I was finally diagnosed as Bipolar. My point is that the failure to detect mental disease as a child led me to make disastrous decisions.

I served in the AF for many years and saw the effects of "free" medical care. A man who drove for two hours with a broken arm to get to an AF hospital. The girl who woke up our ER Doc at 2 a.m., because she felt a cold was coming on and didn't want to ruin her Christmas. A lady who had experimented with an ice cube in sex play, and came to the hospital for the Doctor to remove it. An endless line of coughs colds, sore backs, minor skin rashes; all coming to get their free bottle of $3.00 Cough syrup, or tube of lotion.

Finally, there was Canada. My wife, a Canadian citizen was home visiting her sister, and caught Bronchitis. Two days later she was admitted to a local hospital for Acute Resp Failure. She called me that night to tell the Nurse how to connect Oxygen to her CPAP mask. It seems they had no R.T. after about 7 P.M. At 1:30 AM I was called by her sister and told she had been intubated and airlifted to a Medical Center ICU. After finally finding out how sick she was, I flew up to Canada. Her medical care was not free, because she had not paid the health portion of Ontario's taxes. I was directed to the accounting dept., who demanded a daily payment of $2,500 a day. I gave them several credir card numbers, and told them to let me know when they ran out. My wife was intubated and on a Propofolol and Morphine drip. No secretions were suctioned out, so I was pretty sure it was viral. Despite being intubated she made sounds like bronchospasm and her heart rate would drop into the 20's until given Atropine. This happened several times a day. I talked with the Unit director about step down care, and was told she would stay in the Unit until ready to go to an unmonitored bed. I finally decided to fly her back to the U.S. She recovered on several step down Units at my local hospital.

I can be reimbursed for the $25,000 her stay and trip cost. But not without Medical Records. Despite requests from her and her Doctor, we are still waiting for a copy of her medical chart. It is now 5 months since she left Canada.

Overall, as an ICU Nurse I found their equipment was old, and not able to ventilate her through the inadequate 7.00 mm ETT. She had no Chest X rays daily, and no CT. I believe the staff was well qualified, but resources were limited.

Philosophically the main difference in american and foreign medecine is that here we are over equipped, over staffed (with Doctors, not Nurses), and we value nthe individual patient. Socialized medecine by it's nature, must allocate scarce resources in a way that best benefits the overall society.

We have plenty of health programs for the uninsured. The problem are the petty rules, and unmotivated staff who run them.

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I like what you have to say and you know that we all have different experiences. I am all for socialized medicine and getting rid of the extortionistic insurance companies. Medicare is socialized medicine, so is the VA. Our constitution was written to help prevent monopolies from controlling our economy and sadly enough with deregulations, it has happened. Our government is controlled by corporate entities. They are not human, they are large groups with stock holders. I think that health care needs to be like homehealth. We should be making people take responsibility for their families and teach. To say that because socialized medicine in one place works or does not, may not mean it would not work here. The idea that health care is too expensive for tax payers to subsidize is a notion that may be distorted by insurance companies. There is a doctor in southern California I know of that is nonprofit and she charges 20-35 a visit and 7-15 for labs done in her office. There are other offices opening up with the same model. I hope and pray that it grows. I would like to see the hospitals go back to being real nonprofit hospitals and let experienced, hands on nurses and doctors coordinate them. Hospitals are so managed that managers are in meetings instead of on the floor managing. There is nothing wrong with change, but it is rediculous. From my experience, hospitals are like computers. They change them so much that they become toxic. Staff is stressed, patients are made to feel like numbers, and managers feel disimpowered. The answers are not simple. Americans are given so much misinformation. I just love this web site. It is so neat. I have looked on line for somewhere to vent and finally found it. I wish I had started it. Nurses really need to be able to vent. Just some thoughts!

I have had three experiences with socialized/nationalized Health Care. I was born and lived in England for 19 years. If you wanted to see a Doctor (GP) you went to one of his surgery hours in the morning or afternoon. I sat in a small room with all manners of illnesses around me, including infectious ones. You were seen on a first come first served basis. I was born with Bipolar Disorder, and especially in High School had constant migraines, depression, and school phobia. My condition was never even talked about. The most treatment I received was a bottle of Parrish's Tonic to "buck me up". I came to America in 1971, undiagnosed, and under the belief that all my symptoms were just character flaws. The first hint that I might have a Psychiatric disorder was a Nurse Recruiter telling me I might consider it , after I quit after just one day with a massive anxiety attack. 1984 I was dx as Unipolar Depressive, 1994 I was finally diagnosed as Bipolar. My point is that the failure to detect mental disease as a child led me to make disastrous decisions.

I served in the AF for many years and saw the effects of "free" medical care. A man who drove for two hours with a broken arm to get to an AF hospital. The girl who woke up our ER Doc at 2 a.m., because she felt a cold was coming on and didn't want to ruin her Christmas. A lady who had experimented with an ice cube in sex play, and came to the hospital for the Doctor to remove it. An endless line of coughs colds, sore backs, minor skin rashes; all coming to get their free bottle of $3.00 Cough syrup, or tube of lotion.

Finally, there was Canada. My wife, a Canadian citizen was home visiting her sister, and caught Bronchitis. Two days later she was admitted to a local hospital for Acute Resp Failure. She called me that night to tell the Nurse how to connect Oxygen to her CPAP mask. It seems they had no R.T. after about 7 P.M. At 1:30 AM I was called by her sister and told she had been intubated and airlifted to a Medical Center ICU. After finally finding out how sick she was, I flew up to Canada. Her medical care was not free, because she had not paid the health portion of Ontario's taxes. I was directed to the accounting dept., who demanded a daily payment of $2,500 a day. I gave them several credir card numbers, and told them to let me know when they ran out. My wife was intubated and on a Propofolol and Morphine drip. No secretions were suctioned out, so I was pretty sure it was viral. Despite being intubated she made sounds like bronchospasm and her heart rate would drop into the 20's until given Atropine. This happened several times a day. I talked with the Unit director about step down care, and was told she would stay in the Unit until ready to go to an unmonitored bed. I finally decided to fly her back to the U.S. She recovered on several step down Units at my local hospital.

I can be reimbursed for the $25,000 her stay and trip cost. But not without Medical Records. Despite requests from her and her Doctor, we are still waiting for a copy of her medical chart. It is now 5 months since she left Canada.

Overall, as an ICU Nurse I found their equipment was old, and not able to ventilate her through the inadequate 7.00 mm ETT. She had no Chest X rays daily, and no CT. I believe the staff was well qualified, but resources were limited.

Philosophically the main difference in american and foreign medecine is that here we are over equipped, over staffed (with Doctors, not Nurses), and we value nthe individual patient. Socialized medecine by it's nature, must allocate scarce resources in a way that best benefits the overall society.

We have plenty of health programs for the uninsured. The problem are the petty rules, and unmotivated staff who run them.

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No, it for discussion and we are all free not to read each others opinions. This is a topic that people feel passionate about and maybe we can learn from each other. Probably not, but who knows. LOL

Re: Posts #s 426 and 429

This website isn't for the purpose of making others wrong about the constitution, or using that aged document as a weapon. Ammendments have been made, and only a lawyer who is versed about those and who has become an expert regarding it (similar to President Barack Obama who taught constitutional law at Harvard ) could properly argue its contents.

If participants want to say something about their experience or information about "socialized medicine" (which the Reform of Health Care Insurers Bill is not), so that we can all benefit by that knowledge, fine!

If I want to read long lectures about the "founding fathers", the constitution, or comparitive healthcare systems, I will (not)and I'm free to quote truthfully about what is done here or elsewhere.

Let's not get into the ancient art of over expounding about who thinks they're right, etc. The passion expressed about the constitution reminds me of how the evolutionary process has been dinged by some religions that prefer to stick to the even more ancient biblical description, which is hearsay (and therefore not admissable in any legal setting).

I think this thread has been corrupted somewhat, and would like to see actual nurses' experiences working in a system other than that in the U.S., that benefits all the peoples' health, not just a privileged few.

Also, let me say to the Canadian nurse, that all insurance plans here in the USA are inequal. That is why each year the opportunity to change to a different plan, occurs at most places of employment. Those who are unhappy with the amount of coverage they already have, can switch to another that they think may be of more benefit (although it's a hard task, as the writing in the policies is legal jargon that is even dryer than our constitution, and often phrases seem OK that really balance out possible expenses that may not be in a person's former policy).

I was offered a policy where I worked part time less than 33 hours weekly, in a Home Health Agency 7 years ago, that would cost $325/month. I saw no other dollar signs, so I asked what the "cap" (extent of coverage monetarily) was. It took 2 weeks for the head office in another state to reply, that it was only going to take care of medical costs of $1,350 yearly. So I went without medical insurance until a few years later I was eligible for Medicare (at 65 years of age).

However I did experience being fired from 8 great positions after I was 55 years old, for which I was amply qualified and got good evaluations from my superiors. Much later a friend who owned her own company told me about the escalation of insurance premiums for people over 55. In those days, employers paid nurses much less, and the insurance was a "perk" (if it covered one's need for healthcare adequately).

A friend of mine who is a teacher, needed her ankle reconstructed or replaced (due to many fractures that hadn't been treated well), but the insurance the teachers had, would only pay for a fusion. Now her feet point in 2 different directions, which makes it harder to get anywhere fast and she has considerable pain while ambulating.

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Hmmm, These quotes can be read in different lights. To take selected quotes that are slanted to one's own opinion is bias. Public schools, post offices, and libraries are all for the common good. Once upon a time, so were hospitals. Capitalism can be a monster if it is not regulated. Our government is like a corporation, just many of them. Corporations do not really care about their employees. I am sure there are those that may disagree, but they may experience this too. The framers of the constitution knew that empires fall. They knew that church and state should be separate. They were looking to create a new world for themselves without the evils of misused power. So obvious is it.

QUOTED FROM JSTAND "I love it when people start to assume what the framers of the constitution mean and put their own spin on it. The truth is that YOU, nor Rebelyell, nor I know exactly what the framers meant when they said "general welfare".

We can know exactly, with great detail and certainty what our founding fathers thought of the "General Welfare" clause. Please read below. Keep in mind these are just a few quotes and if you need me to provide more, please let me know.

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"Congress has not unlimited powers to provide for the general welfare, but only those specifically enumerated."

- Thomas Jefferson

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"With respect to the words general welfare, I have always regarded them as qualified by the detail of powers connected with them. To take them in a literal and unlimited sense would be a metamorphosis of the Constitution into a character which there is a host of proofs was not contemplated by its creators."

- James Madison

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"The nature of the encroachment upon American constitution is such, as to grow every day more and more encroaching. Like a cancer; it eats faster and faster every hour. The revenue creates pensioners, and the pensioners urge for more revenue. The people grow less steady, spirited and virtuous, the seekers more numerous and more corrupt, and every day increases the circles of their dependents and expectants, until virtue, integrity, public spirit, simplicity and frugality become the objects of ridicule and scorn, and vanity, luxury, foppery, selfishness, meanness, and downright venality swallow up the whole of society."

- John Adams

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"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare... they may appoint teachers in every state... The powers of Congress would subvert the very foundation, the very nature of the limited government established by the people of America."

- James Madison

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"The constitutionality and propriety of the Federal Government assuming to enter into a novel and vast field of legislation, namely, that of providing for the care and support of all those ... who by any form of calamity become fit objects of public philanthropy. ... I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for making the Federal Government the great almoner of public charity throughout the United States. To do so would, in my judgment, be contrary to the letter and spirit of the Constitution and subversive of the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded."

- Franklin Peirce

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"I cannot undertake to lay my finger on that article of the Constitution which granted a right to Congress of expending, on the objects of benevolence, the money of their constituents."

- James Madison

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"If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress... Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America."

- James Madison

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"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them."

- Thomas Jefferson

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"To take from one because it is thought that his own industry and that of his father's has acquired too much, in order to spare to others, who, or whose fathers have not exercised equal industry and skill, is to violate arbitrarily the first principle of association -- the guarantee to every one of a free exercise of his industry and the fruits acquired by it."

- Thomas Jefferson

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I cannot find any authority in the Constitution for public charity, ... [it] would be contrary to the letter and the spirit of the Constitution and subversive to the whole theory upon which the Union of these States is founded."

- Franklin Peirce

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madwife2002 has 26 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in RN, BSN, CHDN.

1 Follower; 74 Articles; 4,777 Posts; 120,607 Profile Views

I work for a renal dialysis company, on the first of the year a new way of billing for medicare/medicaid started called 'Bundling' It sent the renal companies almost frantic in the amount of cost cutting that has been implemented. Now whilst I understand the need to be cost vigilant and that the government wants to improve the quality of care the patients recieve by setting targets, but it has resulted in staff focusing in on achieving impossible targets and the quality of care has dimished in my opionion.

The staffing ratio's have been cut in an effort to be cost effective, this as you can imagine has had a terrible cost on pt care and staff satisfaction.

When I came to the US I thought I had died and gone to heaven because the patient care was amazing, the staff were not stressed or overworked and their satisfaction was top notch.

Now I see it going the same way as the UK-you are lucky if you have 2 RN's to do all the work.

I know in my renal dialysis facility there is 1 nurse to 20 patients-how is it possible for any nurse of any calibre to maintain high quality of care?

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talaxandra specializes in Medical.

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Unless quoting a specific section of other member's posts to rebut, add to or comment on it, can contributers please only post their own comments? Scrolling down past reams of quoted-for-no-purpose previous posts is irritating. Thank you

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Grace Oz specializes in Med/Surg/Ortho/HH/Radiology-Now Retired.

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Ok mum! :chair::lol2:

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talaxandra specializes in Medical.

1 Article; 3,037 Posts; 22,004 Profile Views

I guess it's a combination of two things that about it that irritate me - 1) I don't understand the point of it, and 2) to me, at least, it obscures the point and impetus of new posts. As always, YMMV! And I've never noticed this from you, anyway, Grace, so come out from under that chair!

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Grace Oz specializes in Med/Surg/Ortho/HH/Radiology-Now Retired.

1,294 Posts; 23,210 Profile Views

Ok, I'm out!

Soooo ... how ya been old girl? What's new? Did you know I'l be a first time granny in 6 weeks time? :yeah::redbeathe:D

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