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Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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Hello fellow professionals,

May I have your attention please. An allnurses.com user by the name of nursebrandie made a valid point in the emergency nursing subforum that I would like to discuss with all of you. We were discussing the use of paramedics in the ER, and it was mentioned that the two professions were interchangeable. This is alarming to a professional nurse such as myself. We must not give give up our career roles to other specialties. Any of you that do not believe this is an issue, please consider the following:

1. Anesthesia started out being administered by nurses, that's right, nurses...not physicians. Nursing gave this role up to physician anesthesiologists. Yes, we still have the CRNA profession, but now there is a new role out there called the Anesthesiologist Assistant (AA). It is a master's degree program that physicians created to keep the midlevel anesthesia providers under their thumbs. The position pays as well as, if not more than, a nurse anesthetist.

2. Physical Therapy and Occupational Therapy started off as subspecialties of nursing. Yes, PT's and OT's were orginally nurses that received specialty training in the activities of PT and OT. But we gave these positions away too and now the PT has become a clinical doctorate degree and the OT has become a master's degree.

3. Midwives originally birthed babies, not physicians. In fact, the first known male physician to witness a live birth dressed up as a woman to see the event, and when it was discovered, he was burned alive at the stake. Yes, we still have nurse midwifery, but it never should have been given to the male physician group. And also look at what CNM's get paid compared to OB/GYN physicians...for pretty much the same job.

4. RN's used to be able to mix drugs in piggybacks for I.V. administration. Now pharmacists have completely taken over that arena too. Why is this important? Well, just this...did you ever need a drug in an emergency situation, like Mannitol, but had to wait for a pharmacist to mix it and you get it back in 30 minutes when you could have mixed it in 5 minutes flat? Look around you...nursing's skill set is being taken away, but our nursing leaders are demanding us to have more education. Why? Nurses aren"t smart enough to use strict aseptic technique to mix drugs in an emergency situation?

5. Why is it that nurses cannot endotracheally intubate except in an ambulance or flight nurse role? Why is it that a paramedic can put in an EJ IV line, central line, or chest tube but nurses cannot except if employed in a flight nurse or ambulance role? Why is it that are profession seems to want us more educated but we have allowed ourselves to become "dumbed down"?

So yes, the idea of paramedics taking over the ER nurse's role is a real threat, and it should not be taken lightly. Paramedics are great to have in the ER...but paramedics are paramedics and nurses are nurses.

Embrace your skill set, and do not allow others to take anything more away from you! You went to school. You learned the skills. You know how to critically think! Nurses are more than just well educated technicians. I am more than a butt wiping, pill pushing, bed making technician. So are all of you.

Keep this in mind as you move through your career. Nurses need to come together, not grow apart if this profession is ever going to be something more.

Mark

nursing like the rest of the medical field is about MONEY. I am not surprise by any changes that take place in the medical field. Techs are replacing nurses in every field. Are they better or cheaper staff? Let's face it in a few years another picture will arise in nursing and there is not a way to prevent them from happening. Nurses have lost their image as professional caregivers, if techs can and do replace us.:crying2:

I will say it again- Nurses' low level of education make us ripe for replacement by lower educated- unlicensed personnel. And yes, nurses have asked for this to occur by not demanding that our nursing leaders support us, and not hospital administration. We have not been strong enough to fight for our profession. Nurses have refused unionization in the face of the absolute worst threats to our profession, and even today, in areas where unions are needed the most (the Midwest,Texas, the South, areas like Georgia, Virginia, etc), nurses still allow themselves to be intimidated by administration and refuse/fight unionization.

We have allowed our State BONs to dumb down and deskill our profession, to allow hospitals and nursing homes to hire HS dropouts to do our jobs. We sit on our hands and complain but no one takes action, and those of us who do, or did, are not supported in any way shape or form by the rest of our co- workers.

Where did the notion of being unionized is unprofessional, and not making a BSN entry into practice come from? Hospitals who had the most to lose by nurses taking control of their profession. Consider the source. Nurses are so easily intimidated and pushed around, that is it any wonder that the public doesn't accept us as professionals? It has been an easy sell to the public that replacing us with unskilled personnel is not a big deal. What is the differance between a nurses aide with six weeks of OJT, and an LPN/LVN with only two semesters of post HS education? Or an ADN with a blue collar associates degree? Not much. We have shot ourselves in the foot by not educationally distancing oursleves from blue collar counterparts. It is all about IMAGE.

Do you see the public school teachers and college professors (with Masters Degrees and up), worrying about being replaced by unlicensed, minimally educated teachers assistants? Isn't the cost of college and our property taxes that fund the public schools going up every year? Why not? Because the public will never allow it or accept it, and they have always had a very powerful union to protect them, and did not worry their little heads about being considered "unprofessional". Nurses salaries are being blamed for the high cost of health care, why not the cost of public education, and college? They have the job protection and use it to their advantage. We do a poor job of communicating to the public what our functions are and how important we are to the public's safety. We have been hamstringed due to nurses having no workplace protection, and refusing to obtain workplace protection by unionizing. We were prevented from going to the public by "right to work" and, "at will" laws", that gave us no protection in the workplace.

I saw this happening ten years ago, when the S#%! hit the fan, and hospitals started to lay off nurses, and trying to run the place without us. The tested to waters to see how hard they could push us, and we failed miserably and collapsed. It was a practice run for what was going to happen in the future, and the future is now.

It is not too late to turn it around, The California Nurses Association, a few other state nurses associaions, and the NNOC, are doing a remarkable job of gaining back some of what was lost, and in making even more inroads into safe nurse practice through staffing ratios.

The time is now, and nurses need to band together, and demand change and support from the State BONs. Get active in the legislative process, and fight efforts by hospitals from deskilling any more of our professional practice.

Write letters to the editor with the statistics from the IOM study, that correlates nurse staffing ratios with patient outcomes. Teachers do this all of the time, and fight attempts to enlarge class size, and what a teachers assistant can do.

No one ever died because they couldn't do long division, diagram a sentence, or recite the Gettysburg Address. How many patients have died from short staffing, medical mistakes due to nurses having too many patients to care for, short staffing? The time is now to effect change in our profession, and take it back.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Spokane, Washington

Specializes in PACU, Med/Surg, Ortho, Neuro, O&P....

I totally agree! RN's need to continue their educations! Get certified in your area of expertise! Start doing some evidence based research specific to your unit! Join a Nursing Society! The money helps to promote Nursing as a profession! Continue for BS, Masters...I believe this is 1 way of taking our PROFESSION to the right level and start being recoginzed and having more of a voice.

My last day as a student nurse, about to graduate, on what looked like a fairly easy stick - I blew an attempt to start an IV. I thought it was just my inexperience. But, the nurse I was working with also blew it. Her friend couldn't get one going, and finally, the charge nurse could not get an IV going, either. Four tries, and no luck.

A paramedic working as an ACP (although I'm sure he got paid a little more than most) started an IV in the pt without a problem.

Most times in my experience, and especially in this one - techs are not low wage-earners looking to replace us - they are friends and assets who could never be replaced - just like nurses.

Specializes in LTAC, Homehealth, Hospice Case Manager.

Yes, I eventually want my BSN, but if not for the available ASN programs I would not have been able to go to nursing school at all. There was no way I could have payed tuition & books on a university level & still meet my needs. But the ASN degree has given me that ability...I'm doing what I've always wanted to do, I have a better paying job & my employer has a tuition assistance program. I agree that nurses should further their education, but I have to do it the only way I can afford to do it...the long way around! :)

Yes, I feel it's unfair that AD programs tack more and more classes on to their curricullum making it difficult to finish in 2 years, it takes atleast 3 years. Oh and then when you go back to college to obtain your BSN it takes another 2 years!! It would have been easier to just to obtain my BSN.

Specializes in 5 yrs OR, ASU Pre-Op 2 yr. ER.

What is the differance between a nurses aide with six weeks of OJT, and an LPN/LVN with only two semesters of post HS education? Or an ADN with a blue collar associates degree? Not much. We have shot ourselves in the foot by not educationally distancing oursleves from blue collar counterparts. It is all about IMAGE.

:angryfire :nono: :angryfire :nono: :trout: :trout: :smackingf :smiley_ab :banghead: :banghead:

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.
Yes, I feel it's unfair that AD programs tack more and more classes on to their curricullum making it difficult to finish in 2 years, it takes atleast 3 years. Oh and then when you go back to college to obtain your BSN it takes another 2 years!! It would have been easier to just to obtain my BSN.

Exactly. The people who should be angriest about the efforts to produce ADN graduates who can fulfil the same roles as a BSN graduate should be the ADN grads themselves. They should WANT the profession to more clearly distinguish between the 2 degrees and to make the 2 programs more clearly educationally different -- so that ADN grads don't continue to be "soaked" by the ADN schools who ask them to take more and more classes (and pay more and more money) for that ADN degree when they still need to go back for the BSN if they want much career advancement.

The ADN grads themselves should be leading the call to more clearly distinguish between ADN and BSN grads.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

Distinguish exactly how?

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.
Distinguish exactly how?

To say something a long the lines of ....

An ADN program should require 4 full time semesters of college-level work and include the following content (Blah, blah, blah), thus preparing the ADN graduate to work in the following roles (blah, blah, blah). A BSN program includes the additional content of ...blah, blah, blah ... and prepares student for for the additional roles of blah, blah, blah. It would typically take 8 full time semesters of study to cover the BSN content.

What would be eliminated are those ADN programs that have so many pre-requisites that it takes 5 or 6 semesters of full time study to complete ... and those ADN programs that try to include everything found in a BSN program so that people can't tell the difference between the 2 degrees and/or between the graduates of the 2 types of programs. There should be a clear distinction between the 2 types of programs as they award 2 different degrees.

It's the money, honey. Education is an industry. We wouldn't be spending so much time in school, taking more and more classes, for less and less, if it were not for the education system making money off our tuition and the textbook industry making money off us, and whatever other ancillary industries making money off us. Repeat an anatomy class b/c you didn't finish school and it is more than 5 years old? Come now. We're not that stupid. Repetition of courses could in most instances, be handled with proficiency exams. But then the schools wouldn't have the added tuition, now, would they?

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

I still say I would rather see AD programs converted to BSN ones. End the discord already.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
It's the money, honey. Education is an industry. We wouldn't be spending so much time in school, taking more and more classes, for less and less, if it were not for the education system making money off our tuition and the textbook industry making money off us, and whatever other ancillary industries making money off us. Repeat an anatomy class b/c you didn't finish school and it is more than 5 years old? Come now. We're not that stupid. Repetition of courses could in most instances, be handled with proficiency exams. But then the schools wouldn't have the added tuition, now, would they?

OHHH I SOOO agree. And universities are notoriously capable of deeming so many classes "untransferable" in such an arbitrary manner it's criminal.

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