Education Conspiracy

Nursing Students ADN/BSN

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Does anyone see a huge difference between an ADN and a BSN prepared nurse, nursing skills wise? Very little of my BSN coursework have been utilized on the floor and to be honest, experienced Diploma nurses frequently possessed better skills. Sure, there was management and leadership skills, but unless that is your intent, I cannot see the point.

Personally, the nurse with desire and curiousity for her craft have always appeared to me better, at not only practical skills but also interpersonal. I acquired more debt but little else.

Is there collusion between the AACN and learning institutions pushing this agenda? Why is it so few nursing international bodies have adopted very little of this trend?

I think the BSN thing is just a reflection of market forces.

Regarding graduate school, MSN, MHA, and MBA degrees are becoming prevalent enough that they become the defacto educational requirement.

Hate it or love it, 10k-20k grad degrees are the same price of cars and can dramatically improve your lifetime earnings and career trajectory. Especially for young nurses.

For some context, I started as an LVN before earning an ASN degree. I completed an online BSN a couple of years ago.

Some nurses perform more optimally than others. However, I do not think it has much to do with their level of educational attainment.

Factors such as intellectual curiosity, work ethic, desire for lifelong learning, critical thinking, competence, proficiency in procedural skills, solid communication skills, and years of experience all contribute to differences in the way nurses work.

I tend to agree. However, I think the goal of many BSN programs (their stated goals- which may not translate to reality in all cases) is to attempt to instill critical thinking, et cetera. I know some ADN nurses that are fantastic. However, I also know some ADN nurses that suck tremendously (recent grads) because they don't care and only wanted a quick route to become a nurse. That sort has a very different mindset than the majority of recent BSN nurses I know. At the risk of sounding classist, it tends to be more of a class issue, I think.
Specializes in Hospice / Psych / RNAC.
Rose, my qualifications are RMN, Reg Mental Nurse which frankly was the best of my education, SRN, equivalent being a Reg Nurse here, costing me all of nothing since my father is English, then back to America for my NCLEX and a BSN for one year, cost $13,000 and one year of my life learning absolutely little. In the UK their Reg Nurses are exceptionally well prepared for immediate entry onto the floors. Very little preceptor ship necessary. Their sisters are bred by dragons with real fire breathing capabilities with a horrific dry wit which can be worse than being burnt. I'm not sure if you can actually just be an RMN to become an RPN. All of the European nurses that I met from as many as say fifteen different countries, no one had a BSN. Yet, they were all quite competent albeit with dental challenges:D

Please understand, I'm questioning if we are being taken for a ride?

"one year of my life learning absolutely little" ...says it all to me. In my senior year of my BSN program the ADN nurses jumping in to get their BSNs came in with that attitude. They sat in their seats and in fact didn't learn anything. They didn't feel they needed too. I talked with a few of them.

If associate nurses go for the BSN with an attitude that you really don't need it but I can jump the hoops to further my career with it; you get what you want. You'll get the degree and learn nothing more.

How embarrassing to admit you went to school wasting $13,000 and sat in there learning nothing. I think you took yourself for a ride. One must investigate the school's curriculum, reputation, certification, success rate, etc... It sounds like you didn't do your homework. It also sounds like you made up your mind before you went in. Why pursue the degree if you already had your associates and all your experience.

I've been presuming you went brick and mortar: were you on an online program. There is no conspiracy. It all depends on the student and what they want out of the school relationship. Of course, it also depends on the school. The online programs aren't worth the paper they're written on IMO. Several states won't accept certain online programs.

Also, the wide brush you paint the European nurses with bad oral hygiene...hardly professional. Did you graduate with honors since it appears the class was cake?

I had a few friends in an associate nursing program while I was in a BSN one. As professional courtesy to my fellow nurses on this site I don't go into how bad one program is over the other. We should all be equal and respect each other.

Obtaining a higher degree, i.e. bsn, msn, phd (I should actually skip BSN), these people are goal-driven. They're not in it for the money and aware of what's at stake (loans). They do it simply because it's self-gratifying! :yes:

I, seriously, am hopeful that "professionalism/etiquette class" becomes a part of any college curriculum, like "personality development class". :)

"one year of my life learning absolutely little" ...says it all to me. In my senior year of my BSN program the ADN nurses jumping in to get their BSNs came in with that attitude. They sat in their seats and in fact didn't learn anything. They didn't feel they needed too. I talked with a few of them.

If associate nurses go for the BSN with an attitude that you really don't need it but I can jump the hoops to further my career with it; you get what you want. You'll get the degree and learn nothing more.

How embarrassing to admit you went to school wasting $13,000 and sat in there learning nothing. I think you took yourself for a ride. One must investigate the school's curriculum, reputation, certification, success rate, etc... It sounds like you didn't do your homework. It also sounds like you made up your mind before you went in. Why pursue the degree if you already had your associates and all your experience.

Ditto. The BSN completion program I completed (B&M at a local state uni, many years ago) included a cohort of NMs at the local hospital who had been told the hospital was going to a BSN-minimum leadership model, they could either get a BSN by X date or step down from their NM positions. Most of them were angry about the situation, they came into the program with a chip on their shoulders and their arms crossed, they kvetched constantly all the way through the program about how ridiculous and useless it was, and they did everything possible to not only ensure that they learned nothing, but damaged the classroom experience for the people who were actually interested in being there and making something of the classes (fortunately, they were a relatively small proportion of the group, and we just ignored them as much as possible). Some of the members of that cohort came in with an open mind and embraced the idea of taking advantage of an opportunity, determined to get as much out of the experience and their effort as possible (as I did, although I wasn't in that group and my main motivation for entered the program was that I wanted to go to graduate school).

Most education ends up being largely what you make of it, and what you get out of it is, like so many things in life, a reflection of what you put into it. If you chose to spend a lot of money and not take advantage of the opportunities available to you in the program, or make sure you were choosing a good program, that's on you.

Specializes in Flight, ER, Transport, ICU/Critical Care.
As a preceptor, I have not noticed a big difference between a new grad with a BSN and one with an ADN -- except for the fact that the BSNs always seem to start the job telling me about their plans to be an NP or a CRNA and they're just here "to get some experience first". Usually that means the minimum experience necessary to be accepted into the program of their choice. The ADNs come to the job excited about taking care of the patients, and that makes me excited to precept them. I will add that the MSN grads -- the MSN as entry-level grads -- seem to be particularly clueless when they start on the unit. That could be the type of people who choose an MSN over the much less expensive ADN, or it could be that the local MSN program is just bad.

I think our esteemed RubyVee has a good take on the pulse of new RN clinician preparation.

That is all.

YMMV

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
I tend to agree. However, I think the goal of many BSN programs (their stated goals- which may not translate to reality in all cases) is to attempt to instill critical thinking, et cetera. I know some ADN nurses that are fantastic. However, I also know some ADN nurses that suck tremendously (recent grads) because they don't care and only wanted a quick route to become a nurse. That sort has a very different mindset than the majority of recent BSN nurses I know. At the risk of sounding classist, it tends to be more of a class issue, I think.

You do sound classist; are you really saying BSN nurses come from a "higher class"? You really don't mean that do you? If so, you are not "risking sounding classist", you ARE and it's very unbecoming a professional of any sort to be.

ADN programs DO instill critical thinking and it is NOT a "quick route" to becoming an RN, if you consider it takes minimum 3 years with all the pre-req's to finish.

I have met many new BSNs out the gate who sucked, too. Some really DID think they were "Better" than the ADN counterparts, because their professors told them so, in some cases. But their performance and critical thinking skills were no better stacked against the ADN with the same (lack) of experience fresh out of school.

Your post smacks of arrogance.

I am very pro-education, and working on advancing mine but again, you won't catch me putting down others simply based on the letters behind (or not behind) their names.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.
As a preceptor, I have not noticed a big difference between a new grad with a BSN and one with an ADN -- except for the fact that the BSNs always seem to start the job telling me about their plans to be an NP or a CRNA and they're just here "to get some experience first". Usually that means the minimum experience necessary to be accepted into the program of their choice. The ADNs come to the job excited about taking care of the patients, and that makes me excited to precept them. I will add that the MSN grads -- the MSN as entry-level grads -- seem to be particularly clueless when they start on the unit. That could be the type of people who choose an MSN over the much less expensive ADN, or it could be that the local MSN program is just bad.

OH yes, they are just there to "get what I need" to advance and are very clear about making these units and the nurses in them, just "stepping stones" on their paths to much bigger and better things. Some of them could not be more insulting or arrogant and I have seen plenty of them here on this site.

A lot of this depends upon the school. Not all BSN programs are created equal. Some BSN programs have a few more nursing related classes that are not "fluff." They will have one or two courses specifically dedicated to pharmacology, an entire semester of pediatric nursing instead of a few weeks, one or two entire semesters of community nursing, a whole semester devoted to psych nursing, and some kind of senior practicum that is more in depth. They may require more advanced chemistry or math pre-reqs, as well as statistics, sociology, and psychology classes. The hardest pre-req I had to take was nutrition, which was chemistry based, not four food groups. I went to a brick and mortar nursing school at a very well thought of state university known for its nursing program. I don't recall taking any classes on nursing "theory" other than intro to nursing. Some of the RN to BSN programs (most online) sound like pure crap to me. They are designed to check a box and don't bring a lot of anything truly valuable to the student.

But the main difference between the two is that a BSN is a more broad education just like you get with any bachelor's degree, whether yours is in business, education, humanities, science, etc. You have to take more courses in English (literature and composition), government, history, maybe philosophy, general science classes totally unrelated to nursing, sometimes foreign language, or fine arts. It's not a degree specifically designed as preparing one for a trade or particular profession. It's not for everybody. It's not necessarily designed to make a better nurse out of someone, simply a person educated in things beyond nursing, which may or may not benefit the student as a person or a professional in measurable ways, but in ways unique to that person's development as a thinker and a human.

I don't believe there is any "conspiracy" involved. We are simply in a nursing glut, so those in the business of hiring can and do require more education of their nurses, if for no other reason than PR. The ADN is still highly valued in many markets, so no one is "forced" to get a BSN. If one doesn't want to relocate to those markets, then it becomes more necessary to go ahead and get the extra degree or wait out the glut until there is a shortage, in which case the desirable facilities will be clamoring for the services of the ADN. In a severe shortage, bonuses and other goodies will be offered. This is very cyclical.

Specializes in Pediatrics, Women's Health, Education.

Linda Aiken's research has shown that higher ratio of BSN nurses in a hospital leads to better patient outcomes. She said it, not me ;-)

Sorry I forgot to mention that I have a B.Acy, which is a Bachelor's in Financial Accounting, which is an excellent degree allowing many avenues of employment. It was a bricks and mortar for my BSN and because of previous education, it did make a BSN quite easy. It was pursued because it appeared to be the trending future.

So to reiterate, not denigrating further education if it's the individual's choice but I do detect some hostile responses. As an experienced Psych Nurse, I would explore that frustration other than online jabs. YouTube vids of animals doing funny things always works for me.

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