Do I REALLY need a BSN? - page 9

Hi. I just graduate with my ADN as a second career. Before that, I was full time mom and before that I was an attorney (yeah, weird, I know). So, I'm hearing here and there that if I want even a... Read More

  1. by   elkpark
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    I know you are afraid. It's why you crawl out of your little cubby-hole, along with the other one from Boston to try to refute it when I write about it. Everything I said about the Aiken study was true and in the study itself; which I'm starting to doubt you even read through. You and others are afraid of the backlash when nurses start to realize they went into debt for thousands unnecessarily. I told you, I met with one of the big 3 NBC, CBS, ABC a couple of years ago. The producer wanted more nurses who would speak out. And now that more are leaving nursing rather than go into to debt for something that doesn't do squat for patient care, you're worried more will be willing step in and speak. If you though I was a kook, you wouldn't bother to respond. By the way, how's your coffee and doughnuts today. Good day my friends.

    I still don't understand why you are so convinced that I, or anyone else, am "afraid" about any of this. I have no personal stake in this issue either way. I just hate to see anyone mangle science as badly as you do. I find it embarrassing for nursing as a group.

    And what's the obsession with "coffee and doughnuts" about? I see you keep making references to that, and don't get what your point is.
  2. by   avengingspirit1
    The information about using gross estimations and then and then making an estimation about what MIGHT happen if there was a 10% increase in BSN nurses are buried in the body of the study. I posted that before. Funny, one of my former nursing professors , who did have a doctorate left my nursing school to help run a dept at a four year nursing school. She had always been one to defend 3 year nursing diploma education. But when I went to see her at the university, she did a complete turn-around and even quoted a statement from the March 2011 "It's Academic" article in Nursing Spectrum. I understand she had to tow the company line and we both nodded to each-other as I told her I understood. I understand it's a business. And I would respect those pushing it if they would come out and admit instead of this phony nonsense about elevating the profession. I also believe the push for PTs and Pharmacists was purely money-driven. I believe there are plenty of excellent PTs and Pharmacists out there with Master's degrees and years of experience. But I am not in those professions and can't fight for them. If I had solid proof that taking courses such as "Sociology of Nursing", "Theoretical Foundations of Nursing" would help heal patients, then I would agree that having a BSN could help patients. This may be hard for you to believe, but I am about helping people and doing what's best to accomplish that. My mother died a few months ago because I believe the staff did not recognize the early signs of Sepsis. When I visited her the first day and saw her vital signs, I asked if she was being evaluated for Sepsis protocol. They just told me they were working within hospital parameters. How about a BSN program to teach nurses how to better recognize early signs of sepsis, diabetes complications or new wound healing methods or new methods to accelerate healing and speed recovery. Give me those things instead of just writing more APA format papers and I'll agree that a BSN is worthwhile and needed.
  3. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    The information about using gross estimations and then and then making an estimation about what MIGHT happen if there was a 10% increase in BSN nurses are buried in the body of the study.
    I am not sure you understand the purpose of the study. The study built on previous studies which had identified that improved staffing levels, improved work environments, and increased nursing education were all associated with improved patient outcomes (lower mortality). The design of this study was to take the outcomes data from a large number of hospitals and patient encounters and use that data to build a model. The model could then be used to predict the effect on patient outcomes if the modifiable risk factors were adjusted (staffing, environment, education) while keeping everything else the same.

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Funny, one of my former nursing professors , who did have a doctorate left my nursing school to help run a dept at a four year nursing school. She had always been one to defend 3 year nursing diploma education. But when I went to see her at the university, she did a complete turn-around and even quoted a statement from the March 2011 "It's Academic" article in Nursing Spectrum. I understand she had to tow the company line and we both nodded to each-other as I told her I understood. I understand it's a business. And I would respect those pushing it if they would come out and admit instead of this phony nonsense about elevating the profession.
    Or maybe, rather than her being involved in a multinational conspiracy from "BigNursingAcademia" she read the data and changed her mind. And maybe your assumption that support for 3-year diploma is mutually exclusive to also supporting advancing nursing education: it's not. These studies (and Aiken's are only a part of it) suggest that more education makes individual nurses better nurses: I feel like you think these studies suggest that nurse A, AN is a worse nurse than nurse B, BSN and they absolutely don't.


    Quote from avengingspirit1
    If I had solid proof that taking courses such as "Sociology of Nursing", "Theoretical Foundations of Nursing" would help heal patients, then I would agree that having a BSN could help patients.
    There are numerous studies across many countries that have shown consistent results.

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    This may be hard for you to believe, but I am about helping people and doing what's best to accomplish that. My mother died a few months ago because I believe the staff did not recognize the early signs of Sepsis. When I visited her the first day and saw her vital signs, I asked if she was being evaluated for Sepsis protocol. They just told me they were working within hospital parameters. How about a BSN program to teach nurses how to better recognize early signs of sepsis, diabetes complications or new wound healing methods or new methods to accelerate healing and speed recovery. Give me those things instead of just writing more APA format papers and I'll agree that a BSN is worthwhile and needed.
    I am sorry about your mother.

    I would argue that education does help. While going from and ADN to a BSN might not directly teach a specific thing (like early recognition of sepsis) it does (in theory, and supported by data) contribute non-directly. Increasing nursing education does many meaningful things for the profession including increasing nursing research, critical clinical thinking, EBP, etc which sum up to improved outcomes, and in the end, your mom maybe could have been in that reduction in mortality the studies have suggested.

    We should improve nurse staffing levels. We should improve nurse working environments. We should improve nursing education. These are all modifiable risk factors or patient mortality that nursing can impact.
  4. by   avengingspirit1
    I completely agree about nurse staffing levels being a factor in mortality rates. But the topics of staffing levels and nurse education and their effect on mortality rates are mutually exclusive and should have been examined in that way if the authors really wanted to imply that RN education levels affected patient outcomes. That is my whole contention with the study. And it was immediately trumpeted out as Gospel truth by those with pro-BSN agendas. I'll even give the authors some credit as to maybe they didn't intend for the study to be used in that way. However, when they saw how their research was being used, it would have been ethical to come and and it was only an estimation as to what might happen if there were a 10% increase in BSN hospital nurses. But they kept quiet. I can not trust based on just their say-so that they completely and objectively factored all impertinent data while they factored in only relevant data. It was not original research. I also must ask why they didn't want to take the time to do a completely original study on nurse education levels. And then looking at who supported the study, I question as to whether it was truly unbiased. Don't know if Aiken is still teaching classroom nursing courses, but I highly doubt she would have accepted a paper from a student that was built on a previous paper handed in. I spoke with a couple of Univ. of Penn nurses and they didn't even know who she was.

    You seem to like the word conspiracy. I really haven't heard the word used much since Oliver Stone's JFK movie. But I am merely saying that there are multiple organizations benefiting from people being driven back to colleges and universities. It's not conspiracy; it's business.

    Good day.
  5. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    I completely agree about nurse staffing levels being a factor in mortality rates. But the topics of staffing levels and nurse education and their effect on mortality rates are mutually exclusive and should have been examined in that way if the authors really wanted to imply that RN education levels affected patient outcomes.
    They aren't mutually exclusive at all. Hospitals that are interested in improving outcomes can improve staffing ratios, increase the the education of the nursing workforce, and improve nursing work environment all simultaneously. Many hospitals have done this recently as part of achieving Magnet status.

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    I can not trust based on just their say-so that they completely and objectively factored all impertinent data while they factored in only relevant data.
    Of course science is not perfect and it is never possible to account for "all" factors but that is why we have statistics. The authors are able to conclude that the results noted are not due to chance alone. And in this particular case, they also controlled for unidentified confounders and found they were not statistically significant in aggregate.

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    It was not original research. I also must ask why they didn't want to take the time to do a completely original study on nurse education levels. And then looking at who supported the study, I question as to whether it was truly unbiased. Don't know if Aiken is still teaching classroom nursing courses, but I highly doubt she would have accepted a paper from a student that was built on a previous paper handed in. I spoke with a couple of Univ. of Penn nurses and they didn't even know who she was.
    This is original research. It used existing data but the rest of the study was entirely new. The vast majority of clinical research uses databases of retrospective data (like NHANES and WHO). This is very common in research and it covered in 100-level research method courses.

    As far as your "contacts" at UPenn not knowing who she was, she is the Director of the Center for Health Outcomes and Policy Research. I am not sure what you are implying by that other than that your contacts were ignorant.

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    You seem to like the word conspiracy. I really haven't heard the word used much since Oliver Stone's JFK movie. But I am merely saying that there are multiple organizations benefiting from people being driven back to colleges and universities. It's not conspiracy; it's business.
    Look up the definition of conspiracy and conspiracy theory. That's why I use the term.

    Academia is absolutely a business. But this research is consistent across multiple countries and multiple authors, some of which have universal education.
  6. by   ixchel
    Maybe if you take sociology of nursing or theoretical foundations of nursing, you'd actually have half a clue what you're talking about. I further add that maybe a course in research would be helpful as well.

    I'm working with BS students now. You know what they're learning? "early signs of sepsis, diabetes complications or new wound healing methods or new methods to accelerate healing and speed recovery"

    Literally. Our juniors are learning this during this semester.


    Speaking of people crawling out of their cubby-holes, hi, everyone. Nice to pop in again.

    AS1, always nice to be dragged back yet again by you. Thanks for the email notification on a 4 year old thread.
  7. by   ixchel
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    But the topics of staffing levels and nurse education and their effect on mortality rates are mutually exclusive and should have been examined in that way if the authors really wanted to imply that RN education levels affected patient outcomes.
    You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
  8. by   avengingspirit1
    I have a math and business background in addition to nursing. I know what mutually exclusive means better than most and am adept with statistics. Too many unnamed variables in Aiken's study with the inclusion and exclusion of data based solely on the consensus of those "experts" creating the study. And all those experts were backed by those with pro-BSN agendas such as the AACN. There is much research out there on the many flaws of this study; with more to come as the cost of four year schools continue to rise along with student loan debt. There are many good and bad nurses out there from all types of nursing education. I do agree that nurses need to be current in their practice but only one side is saying that must be done by going thousands of dollars into debt for a BSN at a four year university. Continuing education and certifications are options for the working nurses. But those options don't bring revenue into universities. Again, all nurses whether they are Diploma, Associates or Bachelor prepared make valuable contributions every day and have shown they can adapt to changes in the profession. Too bad nurse's associations no longer recognize that. I'll post it again as to why four year schools want money: I didn't say it; they did.

    "200 college and university campuses have closed during the last 10 years due to decreasing enrollments as baby boomers aged" (Nursing Spectrum, Jan. 9, 2012).


    "For the past 40 years, institutions of higher learning have been relentlessly replacing professors on the tenure track with contingent faculty, typically part-timers, who cost a whole lot less" (The Weekly Standard, Nov. 16, 2015).

    "Hard Times on Campus - Declining Enrollment Means Declining Revenue For Colleges" (Philadelphia Inquirer, Jan. 31, 2016)
  9. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    There is much research out there on the many flaws of this study
    Cite them then. Just list all of studies on the "flaws of this study" below so we can all read them.


    Quote from avengingspirit1
    Again, all nurses whether they are Diploma, Associates or Bachelor prepared make valuable contributions every day and have shown they can adapt to changes in the profession. Too bad nurse's associations no longer recognize that.
    Can you cite a state or national nursing association that has stated that they do not value some nurses based on academic degree?

    This just isn't true. All (well, most) nurses make valuable contributions and have demonstrated basic competency to practice. I don't think anyone has stated otherwise. None of these studies suggest that nurse A, BSN is inherently better than nurse B, ADN nor is anyone suggesting that.
  10. by   elkpark
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    I do agree that nurses need to be current in their practice but only one side is saying that must be done by going thousands of dollars into debt for a BSN at a four year university.
    I don't believe anyone is saying "that must be done by going thousands of dollars into debt for a BSN." There are plenty of BSN completion programs that don't require "thousands of dollars" of debt. When I completed a BSN at a local B&M public university, I was able to go to school, work full-time, and easily pay the cost out of pocket as I went (and with no employer assistance). Not a penny of debt. I've checked the website of my alma mater recently, and they currently report that the full cost of the BSN completion program, including textbooks, fees, everything (and the program is now all online) is ~$6,000. That does not involve "thousands of dollars of debt." There are plenty of other easily affordable BSN completion programs (and, until this year, the costs were entirely tax deductible if you itemized. The new Republican tax bill eliminates deductions for work-related expenses, so that's gone now). If people choose a program that involves them going heavily into debt, that's on them. They should be more savvy "shoppers."
  11. by   avengingspirit1
    Do you get paid by this site to troll for comments that don't fit into the university academic mindset; cause you're always on it. For the heck of it, I checked into many of these so-called programs that supposedly will give you a BSN for $6000 or less. One of the many being Western Governors University. I have a four year business degree, a three-year nursing diploma and have done some graduate work. When coursework was evaluated, they were all $16,000-$19,000. They give you that low estimate then later say you need this and that course. Read blogs from nurses and you'll find there were many complaints to the Bureau of Consumer Affairs as well as other organizations about this. If there is some magic kingdom where a nurse could buy (and that's just what you'd be doing as the real world value would be 0) a BSN for $6000 or under most nurses haven't found it.
  12. by   avengingspirit1
    Quote from BostonFNP
    Cite them then. Just list all of studies on the "flaws of this study" below so we can all read them.




    Can you cite a state or national nursing association that has stated that they do not value some nurses based on academic degree?

    This just isn't true. All (well, most) nurses make valuable contributions and have demonstrated basic competency to practice. I don't think anyone has stated otherwise. None of these studies suggest that nurse A, BSN is inherently better than nurse B, ADN nor is anyone suggesting that.
    The head of certain state nurse's association said nurses weren't professionals unless they had at least a BSN. That was in no uncertain terms saying that their work, value and contributions are not as respected as other nurses. That was one of the most disparaging comments ever uttered about nurses. The study was implying that patients are in less danger of mortality if they are served by a BSN nurse; and that is simply not true. So if the authors didn't mean to imply that; they should come out and rectify their conclusions.
  13. by   BostonFNP
    Quote from avengingspirit1
    The head of certain state nurse's association said nurses weren't professionals unless they had at least a BSN. That was in no uncertain terms saying that their work, value and contributions are not as respected as other nurses. That was one of the most disparaging comments ever uttered about nurses.
    You didn't cite anything. Cite your sources for us so we can read what you are talking about.

    Quote from avengingspirit1
    The study was implying that patients are in less danger of mortality if they are served by a BSN nurse; and that is simply not true. So if the authors didn't mean to imply that; they should come out and rectify their conclusions.
    You bounce back and forth between numerous studies and seem to refer to it as "that/this study". The study you were discussing above concluded that if hospitals increased the proportion of BSN+ nurses in their work force then mortality would decrease.

    I has been said numerous times but you still seem unable to comprehend: these studies say nothing about individual nurse performance, they do not compare nurse A to nurse B, in fact that is a basic principle to research in general: you need large enough numbers to account for individual variability (statistical power).

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