ADN's being pushed out

redhead_NURSE98!, ADN, BSN · May 14, 2013

It's embarrassing to explain to patients why nursing has so many levels of entry because it basically boils down to two reasons: convenience of the nurse or nursing as a task-based profession. Neither are best for the patient.

Funny, I don't feel the need to explain anything about my life or my education to my patient. Sorry you're embarrassed.

NotMyProblem MSN, ASN, BSN, MSN, LPN, RN · May 14, 2013

I'm curious. I'm pursuing the RN-BSN as a personal choice simply because I had extra credits just 'lying around'. I started out as an LPN of 27 years, RN for last 3 years, and hopefully BSN-BC by this time next year. My question is, if everyone were to obtain management and/or practitioner licenses, who would give the Tylenol or Dilaudid or shove the bedpan and give a bath? Simply put, who will actually carry out these orders and directions of those with more education? I'm personally trying to get away from the bedside and with a higher degree, say an MSN or higher, I would be offended if the details of my job mandated that I perform personal care. But that's what will happen if EVERY nurse continually pursued and obtained higher levels of education. You cannot be a Chief without Indians. Who would you lead?

Just my unsolicited opinion......

redhead_NURSE98!, ADN, BSN · May 14, 2013

My question is, if everyone were to obtain management and/or practitioner licenses, who would give the Tylenol or Dilaudid or shove the bedpan and give a bath? Simply put, who will actually carry out these orders and directions of those with more education?

This is kind of what I said the night that one of our new grads threw a fit because it was her turn to be the patient care tech (when we have no tech scheduled, sometimes we have to use a nurse.) She got on the phone with our manager and threw attitude, yelling things like "I AM A REGISTERED NURSE. THIS IS NOT PART OF MY JOB." My comment was that I would be committing suicide before I get old enough for people that are HER children's age to care for me, since all of them will think they're too good and overeducated to wipe a butt.

carolinapooh, BSN, RN · May 16, 2013

This is kind of what I said the night that one of our new grads threw a fit because it was her turn to be the patient care tech (when we have no tech scheduled, sometimes we have to use a nurse.) She got on the phone with our manager and threw attitude, yelling things like "I AM A REGISTERED NURSE. THIS IS NOT PART OF MY JOB." My comment was that I would be committing suicide before I get old enough for people that are HER children's age to care for me, since all of them will think they're too good and overeducated to wipe a butt.

Overentitled Gen Y'ers who make cracks like that and throw temper tantrums about it (actually, anyone, regardless of generation), should, in my humble opinion, be fired on the spot. I'm serious.

NotMyProblem MSN, ASN, BSN, MSN, LPN, RN · May 18, 2013

I personally wouldn't mind being floated to the role of tech for a shift....I would consider that a gift from God, given my duties as a nurse combined WITH those as a tech! Lot less stress for the pay!

NotMyProblem MSN, ASN, BSN, MSN, LPN, RN · May 18, 2013

Overentitled Gen Y'ers who make cracks like that and throw temper tantrums about it (actually, anyone, regardless of generation), should, in my humble opinion, be fired on the spot. I'm serious.

.

I don't know if I would fire them, with the staffing shortages and all, but I would definitely give them a choice of a shift rotation as a tech as opposed to a week's rotation as a tech....depending on the length and volume of the rant. Lol! That would definitely give them a new-found appreciation for an OCCASIONAL change in duties and would also snatch them off of that high horse. Now, if they were to QUIT after that, oh well.

SleeepyRN · May 21, 2013

Right. A choice. Try to apply to CEO positions with an associates degree and then demand that they should pay for your MBA. There is currently a neurosurgeon job open at a major hospital here? Apply and then demand they pay for your med school! These positions require advanced schooling because they have tremendous responsibility. Can you name another profession with more direct responsibility for human lives that has anything less than a masters?
I am sorry that people are unwilling to make sacrifices to be the best nurse they can be. It's embarrassing to explain to patients why nursing has so many levels of entry because it basically boils down to two reasons: convenience of the nurse or nursing as a task-based profession. Neither are best for the patient.

You can't even begin to compare your analogies. ADNs and BSNs do the same job, period. They are requiring more schooling to perform the sane job functions, unlike your med school example.

libran1984, ASN, RN · May 21, 2013

You can't even begin to compare your analogies. ADNs and BSNs do the same job period. They are requiring more schooling to perform the sane job functions, unlike your med school example.[/quote']
As an LPN, one of the few left, working in an ER I find it funny listening to my co-workers. One is an ASN with 23 years ER experience and 8 years ortho. Yet one major hospital system has blatantly denied her ASN experience preferring s new grad BSN.
Funny bc the last two BSNs we hired were shortly fired after PO Benadryl was inadvertently administerd IVP, IV abx were d/c'd prior to completion and discharged, an IV was inserted backwards, zofran was taught to the pt as an abx rather than an anti-emetic, etc.... Yes these were VERY recent mistakes that led to new grad BSN discharges from employment out of my ER. Surely new grad BSNs have so much more to offer than those experienced ASN's, am I right?
Oh then there's the new grad MSN F-NP preparing for her boards. She's rattling off level one hundred microbiology stuff to reinforce her knowledge before sitting for her exams. At one point she says, "what's tetorifice?" I respond, "a gram positive spore forming anaerobic rod!" Ha! Something I actually remembered from LPN school!!! She's certainly impressed. But then she goes on to discuss all the various PNA's and their causative agents. Srsly not a shocker. What!? Did her NP classes just reinforce what micro 101 suggested, or perhaps the more in depth functions of all 12 cranial nerves and how to test them in ANP201. I'm currently not impressed with any of this material that qualifiers as "furthered / continued education" bc it's all seemingly the same stuff no one seemed to grasp the first time around that I as an LPN endured during my own training. It's just further redundancy!
My own manager wasn't even aware that I, as an LPN, created care plans in school. Ridiculous, I'm a very attentive student and while I struggle in a structured lecture environment, I thrive in a hands on environment.
I am going to be an ASN RN this time in 2014 and dread the ongoing educational inflation going on. I am terrified and upset and feel severe angst to think my 4 years of ER LPN experience, drawing ABG's, interpreting EKGs, starting Iv's for those less competent through our my entire hospital, administering blood products (under my own license) and performing CBI's, and performing NG tube insertions will be meaningless because I possess a mere associate degree.
Does a BSN grad know to question the doctors order when he only orders an abdominal CT for suspected diverticulitis. Does a new BSN know to ask the doctor if he also wanted a pelvis ct with that?
It's not just the degree but also experience that matters!! I am flustered to think that same hospital demanding a BSN in 5 years of hiring has also just gotten rid of their shift differentials! The market for RNs is so saturated, not only can the employer demand the highest degree, but also pay less!
Yes, Magnet indeed, We attract and retain our nurses well. They are all satisfied with their lower pay and more expensive student loans.

amygarside · May 21, 2013

ADNs and BSNs may do the same job but hospitals still prefer BSN degree holders especially those with years of experiences

SleeepyRN · May 23, 2013

As an LPN, one of the few left, working in an ER I find it funny listening to my co-workers. One is an ASN with 23 years ER experience and 8 years ortho. Yet one major hospital system has blatantly denied her ASN experience preferring s new grad BSN.
Funny bc the last two BSNs we hired were shortly fired after PO Benadryl was inadvertently administerd IVP, IV abx were d/c'd prior to completion and discharged, an IV was inserted backwards, zofran was taught to the pt as an abx rather than an anti-emetic, etc.... Yes these were VERY recent mistakes that led to new grad BSN discharges from employment out of my ER. Surely new grad BSNs have so much more to offer than those experienced ASN's, am I right?
Oh then there's the new grad MSN F-NP preparing for her boards. She's rattling off level one hundred microbiology stuff to reinforce her knowledge before sitting for her exams. At one point she says, "what's tetorifice?" I respond, "a gram positive spore forming anaerobic rod!" Ha! Something I actually remembered from LPN school!!! She's certainly impressed. But then she goes on to discuss all the various PNA's and their causative agents. Srsly not a shocker. What!? Did her NP classes just reinforce what micro 101 suggested, or perhaps the more in depth functions of all 12 cranial nerves and how to test them in ANP201. I'm currently not impressed with any of this material that qualifiers as "furthered / continued education" bc it's all seemingly the same stuff no one seemed to grasp the first time around that I as an LPN endured during my own training. It's just further redundancy!
My own manager wasn't even aware that I, as an LPN, created care plans in school. Ridiculous, I'm a very attentive student and while I struggle in a structured lecture environment, I thrive in a hands on environment.
I am going to be an ASN RN this time in 2014 and dread the ongoing educational inflation going on. I am terrified and upset and feel severe angst to think my 4 years of ER LPN experience, drawing ABG's, interpreting EKGs, starting Iv's for those less competent through our my entire hospital, administering blood products (under my own license) and performing CBI's, and performing NG tube insertions will be meaningless because I possess a mere associate degree.
Does a BSN grad know to question the doctors order when he only orders an abdominal CT for suspected diverticulitis. Does a new BSN know to ask the doctor if he also wanted a pelvis ct with that?
It's not just the degree but also experience that matters!! I am flustered to think that same hospital demanding a BSN in 5 years of hiring has also just gotten rid of their shift differentials! The market for RNs is so saturated, not only can the employer demand the highest degree, but also pay less!
Yes, Magnet indeed, We attract and retain our nurses well. They are all satisfied with their lower pay and more expensive student loans.

LOVE your post. Most of the time I state my opinion about degree differences, I always seem to get the response "well BSNs are more well rounded and able to think more critically." I don't have a BSN yet, but I do have life experience and over 120 credit hours from a previous degree. I'll get my BSN and be proud of it, but I do not buy into the notion that it makes one a better nurse. So much more goes into what makes a nurse a good nurse than an extra management class or an extra research class. Your story is a PERFECT example.

SleeepyRN · May 23, 2013

To BostonFNP some of your comments do sound like criticism toward those of us who choose not to go on and get more education. Learning is great, but it doesn't have to happen just in college. Nurses don't have to become BSN to be good nurses as you seem to believe. Honestly I think nurses can learn on their own by keeping up with the latest research and knowledge in nursing journals, medical journals, and becoming certified in their field. I don't think there is any magic in a BSN that makes a nurse suddenly better, as though those who are ADN"s are inferior and selfish for choosing not to go back to school.
The comment why would a hospital pay to put a person thru medical school is ridiculous and doesn't pertain to a nurse already working in her field, already qualified with a license to be told to go back to school and take out massive student loans just because the hospital wants a BSN for magnet status! When the hospital requires nurses to have certain things like ACLS or certifications they pay for it! Obviously a BSN costs a lot more than ACLS. If a hospital wants BSN's they can obviously hire them from the get go and encourage their nurses to go back to school. Although in my experience hospitals want nurses with maximum flexibility and availability to work, not nurses needing time off for school.
There is more to life than school, and people don't have unlimited money to go to school and ignore the rest of their personal/family responsibilites. Many of the new BSN nurses where I work are jumping back into school to get their NP to get away from the hospital and have a better job. I don't blame them, but I don't envy their $100,000+ student loans they are taking out just assuming everything will work out and they will automatically get that great job. I don't believe there are enough jobs out there for everyone going to NP school.
I know how difficult it has been for me to pay back my student loans and they were only around $25,000 and years later I'm still paying them off. There are many older nurses out there where it would be financially insane to go back to school and take out student debt when they should be saving for retirement and unexpected health costs and they won't have the time to pay the loans off before retirement. You are telling them they should drop everything and go back to school just to have a BSN because without it they are inferior and not good enough. Even going back to school won't guarantee they won't lose their job either by being fired or laid off or due to an accident or illness that leaves them unable to work. Yet the student loans have to be paid, there are no consumer protections or bankruptcy options with student loans. Many nurses are single mothers struggling to pay the bills and the last thing they can afford to do is go back to school, consider yourself lucky that you have the opportunity!
I especially think it is foolhardy to go back to school and take out student loans when you are unemployed or disabled because there is no guarantee you will get another job and be able to pay the loans off. I've read posts of people who went back to school in the hopes of getting a new and better job and I fear for their future. If they don't succeed they will not be able to walk away from the student loans and will see any wages garnished, tax returns taken, professional license withheld even social security and disability garnished. People need to be aware of the dangers of student loans and make a truly informed choice not blindly go back to school. If consumer protections and bankruptcy options were restored to student loans then going back to school would be easier and not so dangerous as it is now, but I don't see that happening anytime soon.

Another awesome post on this topic. I agree 100%. I'm going back for my BSN but only because its becoming a requirement where I live. Do I think I will learn some things? Yes. Do I think it will make me a better nurse? Heck no. Certifications, experience, continuous research as you stated (don't need school to do your own research). THAT'S what makes you a better nurse. I don't disrespect BSNs or look down on them. Only the snotty ones.

SleeepyRN · May 23, 2013

ADNs and BSNs may do the same job but hospitals still prefer BSN degree holders especially those with years of experiences

The point was regarding hospitals paying for their ADNs to go back to school. If I work in a hospital as an ADN, then am told I need to get a BSN, (but continue to perform the same duties as a BSN) then heck yeah the hospital should pay for it.