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jjjoy

jjjoy LPN

Content by jjjoy

  1. jjjoy

    Time to call a duck a duck?

    Yes, well, taking care of physiologic needs can be learned on the job in no time! How hard can it be? People without degrees in nursing do it all the time! On the other hand, critical thinking about a person's response to illness is the unique domain of nursing so that is the base of pyramid of nursing education! (tongue firmly in cheek)
  2. jjjoy

    Time to call a duck a duck?

    I have to wonder if some of the old-school "ready-to-hit-the-floor-running" nursing programs simply didn't just implement the "sink-or-swim" methodology of nurse training during the first year of the program? I can imagine where making it through as a student in such programs may have been akin to making it through one's first year/s working as a nurse today. I know liability issues can also constrict student opportunities these days. That's where one might need a kind of backwards license-then-apprentice system of nurse training. Just thoughts!
  3. Honestly, I think there ought to be a totally unique track just for bedside nursing so that those training resources can be maximized for those who do plan to work bedside. However, that's not how it works now. So RN education attempts to cover just about everything which can leave grads feeling underprepared for bedside nursing roles. Nonetheless, bedside nursing is still the mainstay of clinical nursing opportunities. For "all those other options" you often need either specific experience, extra training, and/or being in 'the right place at the right time'. Many of those other options also build upon a solid foundation in hands on clinical. The reason they want to hire a nurse in some roles isn't because they value the degree/license, but it's the real-world experience a seasoned nurse can bring to the role. There most certainly *are* roles that nurses fill that are not bedside and do not build upon bedside care. However, if the role doesn't directly build on hands on nursing care then perhaps its a role that doesn't necessarily require a nursing degree either. And if that's your predominant interest, you may want to explore various alternatives to see if nursing or some other schooling might suit your goals best.
  4. jjjoy

    How bad is distance learning?

    A traditional brick-and-mortar program arranges most, if not all, student clinical experiences and provides a clinical instructor. With distance programs, you really need to find out how you are supposed to get clinical experience. If they just say they help students arrange it, find out how exactly they help and determine if it's something that you can realistically work with.
  5. I thought 15 month programs also ran through much of the summer. So I'm curious how long the break is. Do you know what the possibility is of lining up some kind of experience over a summer break? Obviously, having the time available for an internship doesn't mean much if there aren't any internships to be had. What's the job market like where you are? If it's very tight, any increased networking/experience certainly couldn't hurt and any chance to get a foot in the door helps.
  6. I've got to say that I wish there were more graduated options for students/nursing school grads who could use more clinical time before having the full-spectrum of RN responsibilities and a full workload foisted upon them usually within just 6-8 weeks. My all too short time as a PCT was priceless for becoming more comfortable with patients and learning quick 'tricks' of basic patient care. I wish I could've floated more to get a good cross-section of patient types and issues. Goodness knows that as students we had just 10 shifts on any one unit. I wish I could've been a unit secretary for a time as well to become more familiar with orders and the general flow on various inpatient units. Then, when starting as an RN, I'd have at least a few aspects down pat while trying to get up to speed on everything else! Sigh! This doesn't help the OP... though if any nursing assistant opportunities are available still, take it!!!
  7. jjjoy

    These classes are nonsense

    Germ theory, gate control theory of pain, pharmacologic receptor theory, thermal wound theory, Virchow's triad of thrombus formation...
  8. jjjoy

    priority question about MI patient

    I can't say for the NCLEX, but in class, sometimes it seemed that questions like that were primarily as evidence of how difficult nursing school was since even the best students could get that kind of question wrong. Ugh! Another not-quite-as-cynical thought is that real world health care often isn't black-or-white but you still are called upon to make a judgement which may or may not be deemed as the best judgement by another. A health care provider has to live with some ambiguity and deal with a very less-then-ideal world... why not start getting students used to it in school? Anyway, back to the question at hand...
  9. Many nursing positions will keep you up and running. So that part would be a good fit! Personally, as a science junkie, I found some of the nursing coursework frustratingly cursory. You've got a very short time to cover A LOT of ground and a bulk of nursing education focuses on whole patient care including addressing psychosocial issues and preventative measures (encouraging hydration and ambulation, providing skin care, etc). I'm in no way diminishing the value of whole patient nursing care. Nursing *is* whole patient care. It's just that compared to major level science coursework, nursing coursework generally isn't so in depth. Health care providers only spend a small fraction of their time chewing on the science of health care and spend the bulk of their time just "getting it done"... making sure labs are drawn, physicians notified, pain is controlled, bowels are working, etc and documenting, documenting, documenting! Of course, scientists by profession often spend the bulk of their time trying to get funding and to get published, and just a small fraction actually *doing* science (lab work, field work, etc)! I guess that's why we call it work... much of it is stuff we don't consider inherently fun. Anyway... my main point is that the best reason to go nursing school is because you want to be a nurse and practice nursing. Any other goal (become a case manager, a mid-level primary care provider, a diabetes educator, a medical researcher) may be pursued without necessarily becoming a nurse. If you want to be a nurse and a medical researcher, then definitely go with nursing school. But if you want to be a nurse in order to get into medical research, then you might consider just majoring in biology, kinesiology, microbiology, etc. Granted, you can't just open the paper for jobs for kinesiology majors as opposed to RN jobs (it's not that easy for RNs these days anyway), but if you're interested in non-mainstream nursing jobs, those are more difficult to land depending on what other skills/experience you bring to the table besides just the license. If you're not really sure what direction you'd like to go, try to get out there and volunteer/intern on a hospital unit, in a research lab, at a pharmaceutical company, etc. Best wishes!!
  10. jjjoy

    Caring for the Chart or the Patient?

    I like that example! LOL!
  11. If you're really concerned about what your experience in the program will be, instead of worrying accelerated 1 yr BSN versus traditional junior-year acceptance 2-yr BSN program, just find out about the actual programs themselves and see if one or another looks like it would be a better fit for you. No one wants to go to a poor quality program, but many people just want to get out of school ASAP and get out there on the job where the real learning begins. In that case, any reputable school will do. For others, they may feel that a certain type of nursing school experience would be a better investment of time and money for them. Both accelerated and traditional programs may or may not provide a strong clinical foundation. Both accelerated and traditional programs may or may not help students assimilate the tons of information they are being deluged with. Both accelerated and traditional programs may or may not tend to focus on "ideal world" nursing as opposed to preparing students for the "real world". Both accelerated and traditional program students may suffer from limitations on clinical opportunities (eg having to wait around for an instructor to administer medications, not being allowed to start IVs, etc). Some advantages of a longer program is that it may allow time to work as a nursing assistant and/or apply for student nurse internship positions (not all places have them). Being a student longer also allows some unique opportunities such as being a student research assistant, being involved with a school's charity health care work, or becoming an officer in the NSNA (nursing student assn). The obvious advantage of an accelerated program is being finished faster. A not-so-obvious advantage is that accelerated program student colleagues will likely tend to be very motivated and focused and mature since they already have bachelor's degrees and were accepted to these very competitive programs.
  12. What angers me about programs such as the one your friend signed up for is the incredibly high prices and the encouragement of taking on big loans in addition to making sometimes very misleading claims about future potential income and job opportunities. Maybe you can give her some resources and references to refer to and some questions for her to get answers for (eg look up actual pay of PCTs on local job sites, call human resource departments to ask if this PCT cert would help land a job or not) and let her come to her own conclusions about the program she's enrolled in. If she chooses to not pursue that information, then that's her choice. If it weren't for the high cost and false promises, I wouldn't discourage PCT training. I don't think any training is a waste. I personally would've benefitted from being a PCT for a before and during nursing school. It would've allowed me to focus on RN-level skills and knowledge while in nursing school instead of having to learn and become comfortable with even the most basic of patient care skills in a cram-packed two year RN program.
  13. jjjoy

    Time to call a duck a duck?

    I still tend to see it as that a nurse manager is a nurse who is practicing management of nurses and the provision of nursing care... not practicing nursing per se. Similarly, school principals are required to have taught at some point in their career, but usually are no longer actively teaching in the classroom. Not because they can't; that's just not their role any longer. They may very well jump into the teacher role at times for any variety of reasons... to keep their teaching skills up, to fill in temporarily in a pinch, to see what exactly the teachers are dealing with "on the front line", etc. The very best principals probably are also great teachers. But I'd bet a lot of teachers would make miserable principals and that no small number of highly competent principals were just so-so teachers. But teaching is still "a profession" unto itself, is it not? Or maybe teaching doesn't even fit that 5 point definition of a "true" profession, darn it?! In that case teaching is really just a vocation and teachers just mindlessly carry out the curriculum as designed by true education professionals? Of course not! It seems that some nursing leaders in the past unfortunately bought into the false dichotomy that if nursing fell short of being a "true profession" then that meant that nurses were just automatons and hand-maidens.
  14. jjjoy

    Wondering if I should change to nursing

    Maybe consider getting pre-reqs for an accelerated 2nd bachelor's BSN program while finishing up a bachelor's? If grades are your main concern, I would expect 2nd bach programs to take into consideration if your degree was in biochem from UCI (hard-core courses, with hard-core competition for curved grades) versus a bunch of 'basketweaving' classes from a community college. Even if you change your major to something besides biochem, the 2nd bach plan would allow you more time to find out more about nursing before making any drastic changes in your schooling right now. As you finish up your first degree and get the nursing pre-reqs done, you can volunteer at a hospital, become a nursing assistant or unit secretary, etc. Best wishes with your choices!
  15. Just for the record, I'm not making the argument that I posed... though those Miami Dade program pre-reqs didn't look very rigorous compared to other PA programs I'm more familiar with. I'm sure that competition for spots means that many applicants have well above the minimum requirements, but that's beside the point. I was just thinking that if a school with pre-reqs like Miami Dade are *prepared* to accept students without any health care experience (preferred but not required) and the what look to be pre-reqs that aren't on par with pre-med coursework, and the program is completed in just two years... well, it just kinda makes one wonder how thorough the program could be. The program might actually be one of the best in the nation, though. I don't know enough to say. Those pre-reqs might be hard-core and in that case, their BSN programs have got relatively tougher science requirements than some other programs!
  16. Absolutely necessary? No. Benefitial for many? Yes. Benefitial for you? Maybe. Best option for you? Let me check my crystal ball... (wish I had a crystal ball for myself, too!!) For myself, in retrospect, more CNA experience would've been a good thing. I've since realized that when it comes to learning the type of skills required in nursing, I don't thrive with a steep learning curve. And nursing has a very steep learning curve! My working part-time as a nursing assistant while in nursing school was incredibly helpful to me in building confidence and simply getting repeat, mass exposure to patients and the clinical environment since student clinical rotations speed by in no time. But in my imaginary "what if" world, I would've had a great CNA job that built skills and with nursing co-worker who would teach me. I could very well have become a CNA prior to nursing school and not have been able to land a job at all prior to starting nursing school. Or gotten a miserable job without much opportunity to learn and with mean, unhelpful co-workers who would've turned me off of nursing altogether! Regardless, one doesn't become a CNA just for the money! Depending on your circumstance, it simply may not be a worthwhile investment for you if it's not required for acceptance to nursing school in your area.
  17. I suppose it does make a difference what exact programs one attends. Some nursing programs include more than 2 years of clinical. Some nursing programs don't. Some nursing programs allow students to get lots of experience during clinical and require lengthy one-on-one preceptorships. Some nursing programs do not allow for as much experience, with instructor presence required for just about anything beyond CNA level work, and 10 students competing for one instructor's time. I've heard that the minimal required clinical hours for PA students is much higher than the minimal required clinical hours for NP students. But I haven't researched that personnally. I imagine that if a person doesn't agree with NPs starting practice without any prior RN experience (besides as a student), then that person may also not support two year PA programs that accept students without prior healthcare experience.
  18. The fact that some PA programs appear to have fairly minimal requirements for physician assistant school and just two years of training could be used to argue that some PA programs are too skimpy in the same way that some argue that some NP programs are too skimpy.
  19. I agree. My point was simply that it *is* possible to complete all RN clinical hours and nursing content in one year.
  20. jjjoy

    Time to call a duck a duck?

    Zippy - I think the debate over thinking of nursings as a "profession" vs a "trade" is a seperate issue from the quality of nursing education in the US. Heck, training for nursing as a trade would boost the argument for *more* clinical hours in nurse training, would it not?
  21. jjjoy

    Should I quit nursing school...?

    While the market for new nurses is not great right now, the odds still are pretty good overall. It's not like any other majors out there offer any better assurances in the short term to land a decent job right after graduation. So if you want to be a nurse and practice nursing in the future and you're already accepted into a program, might as well go ahead and finish that nursing degree. If you weren't really interested in being a nurse and your primary motivating factor was to be able to easily secure a job, then I'd give different advice. I would, however, question the ability to maximize your experience and opportunities as a student nurse if you are juggling two majors, at two different schools, nonetheless! The best way to increase your odds of employment, and just overall skills and confidence as a new grad, is to take advantage of whatever student nurse opportunities may be out there. Internships. Working as a nursing assistant. I don't know how you'd have time for that in your current situation. It also seems like you wouldn't be able to maximize your opportunities as a business student either. And just curious, but I do have to wonder how one can manage to be able to fit a workable schedule together between full-time nursing school (lectures, labs, and clinical rotations) and a full load of classes at another institution.
  22. PA education is three years dedicated specifically to PA education. Bio majors, in addition to their biology coursework, also have taken gen ed, bio pre-reqs, related upper division coursework and any other pre-reqs for PA school. On the other hand, the dedicated nursing component of a BSN program apparently can be crammed into just one year as evidenced by one- year accelered 2nd bach BSN programs. The other 3 years' worth of a BSN education is gen ed, pre-reqs and co-reqs (eg statistics, epidemiology, upper division electives). More importantly, consider that RN-student clinical hours are focused on nursing care, not mid-level provider (NP/PA) care. Having a BSN definitely can benefit a mid-level student, but RN-student clinical hours are not an equitable substitute for mid-level-student clinical hours.
  23. jjjoy

    Time to call a duck a duck?

    The following is cut and paste from another related thread.... https://allnurses.com/general-nursing-discussion/i-dont-want-192019-page16.html Originally Posted by eriksoln Yep, that's how I tend to see it as well. Similarly, a nurse manager is a nurse who in their role as a manager is practicing management, not nursing. A nurse researcher is not practicing nursing when that they "put that hat on". A nurse case manager is practicing case management much of the time. I'd go so far as to suggest that much of what *some* "advanced practice nurses" do isn't precisely nursing practice. Some roles can be best served by someone with a background in nursing and something else (nursing and psychology, nursing and public health, nursing and nutrition, etc). A school nurse is likely going to be providing more than nursing care. They are probably also going to be providing basic first aid and preventive health measures. A public health nurse is likely going to be providing more than nursing care. They may also be providing some services that would parallel that of a social worker. Going the other direction, that supports the idea that many tasks performed by nurses are not necessarily "nursing"... things like phlebotomy, taking ECGs, etc. Can nurses do them? Do nurses do them? Absolutely! And so can physicians (just usually don't) and so can adequately trained non-nurses (very common). [added: non-nurses can and do provide nursing care, but a license is required to offer services as a professional nurse; similar to non-professionals doing hair care but needing a certain qualification to offer professional hair services.] I tend towards a 'conservative' definition of nursing practice because if we broaden the definition of nursing practice to include all of the things that nurses *do* do in some roles, just about everything under the sun (health education, anesthesia administration, case management, prescribing medication) would qualify as nursing practice and then the term "practice nursing" becomes meaningless. By limiting the definition of what "nursing" is however, does not mean that I believe that nurses can't or shouldn't have other responsibilities. I believe that many nurses are very well suited for many responsibilities beyond and in collaboration with their nursing practice.
  24. Yep, that's how I tend to see it as well. Similarly, a nurse manager is a nurse who in their role as a manager is practicing management, not nursing. A nurse researcher is not practicing nursing when that they "put that hat on". A nurse case manager is practicing case management much of the time. I'd go so far as to suggest that much of what *some* "advanced practice nurses" do isn't precisely nursing practice. Some roles can be best served by someone with a background in nursing and something else (nursing and psychology, nursing and public health, nursing and nutrition, etc). A school nurse is likely going to be providing more than nursing care. They are probably also going to be providing basic first aid and preventive health measures. A public health nurse is likely going to be providing more than nursing care. They may also be providing some services that would parallel that of a social worker. Going the other direction, that supports the idea that many tasks performed by nurses are not necessarily "nursing"... things like phlebotomy, taking ECGs, etc. Can nurses do them? Do nurses do them? Absolutely! And so can physicians (just usually don't) and so can adequately trained non-nurses (very common). I tend towards a 'conservative' definition of nursing practice because if we broaden the definition of nursing practice to include all of the things that nurses *do* do in some roles, just about everything under the sun (health education, anesthesia administration, case management, prescribing medication) would qualify as nursing practice and then the term "practice nursing" becomes meaningless. By limiting the definition of what "nursing" is however, does not mean that I believe that nurses can't or shouldn't have other responsibilities. I believe that many nurses are very well suited for many responsibilities beyond and in collaboration with their nursing practice.
  25. jjjoy

    Time to call a duck a duck?

    Good points. As I continue to think on this... it would seem that practitioners of the venerated "true professions" precisely are (at least in idealized imagingings) NOT required to do all the grunt work... whaddayall think? The modern physician examines the patient, orders a test and prescribes a treatment. But they rarely participate in administering the tests or treatments. A modern surgeon does only the actual surgery. Someone else sets up the supplies, preps the patient, etc. Lawyers have legal secretaries and paralegals. The "true professionals" nursing leaders were using as models tended to hire on "non-professionals" do most, of not all, of the "scut work". And here's the real catch. Nurses were often recruited specifically to take care of physician's "scut work", no? I'm not saying that nursing *is* physician scut work. But some aspects of many nursing roles *does* include that (eg transcribing orders, administering prescribed meds). And one man's "scut work" can be another man's professional pride, can it not? Scut specialists become just that, specialists in their own right who apply critical thinking and problem-solving to improve quality and advance their practice. I think nursing hit a wall by trying to define it's scope of practice as something that can be practiced completely independent of medicine when *many* nursing roles are *not* practiced indepedent of medicine! I can accept that things like preventing skin breakdown fall squarely into the realm of nursing care. But wound care methods might overlap between nursing and medicine and not be "unique" to either. And things like health education and therapeutic listening are aspects of care that can be provided outside of a nursing model, can they not? ahhhh more rambling!!!!
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