On a spousal visa, treated as any other UK/EU citizen?

Silverdragon102, BSN · Jul 2, 2010

If you are on a spouse visa and have permission to work in the UK then you will be treated the same as UK/EU

NMC fees are annually (despite what is says on the NMC website) I have paid annually for last couple years except this year as no longer in the UK. If it lapses you have to meet requirements which is usually proof that you are working as a nurse but should state something on the NMC website

ONP may expire so NMC would be the best ones to ask about it

I would say contact for a informal look round before or after you have put in your application either way is good and shows you are interested. I have done that twice in the UK and both times got the job

babyNP., APRN · Jul 9, 2010

Just to not start another thread, here's another question...

According to the educational requirements for overseas nurses:

"Please check that your training in your home country matches our requirements. These are that you should have completed a three year full time course or a course totalling 4600 hours at post secondary level leading to registration as a general nurse. At least half of this course, 2,300 hours, must be in clinical or practical training, and at least one third, 1,533 hours, must be theoretical training."

I did a BSN at a well-respected university in Seattle. I e-mailed the office to ask about my clinical hours and they had responded that I had 710 direct clinical hours spent in the hospital.

Theory courses...a rough estimate would be this:

3 classes a quarter x 4 hours a week x 10 weeks = 120 hours

120 hours per quarter x 3 quarters per year = 360 hours

360 hours x 4 years = 1440 hours of theory

Am I not getting something here? I don't see how a BSN at an American university isn't enough education to be a nurse in the UK...and we were very busy during those 4 years...I don't know what I'm going to do or how I'd get more hours. Do a masters degree course?

I wonder if my clinical time spent actually as an RN counts...

Thoughts? thanks :)

edit: hmm...actually, I may think I have answered my own question. The statement quoted above says if you have completed a 3 year full-time program OR having all those clinical hour/theory hour requirements. So maybe if you've completed at least a 3 year program, you're okay. Does that sound logical?

Silverdragon102, BSN · Jul 9, 2010

A lot will depend on your transcripts I seriously doubt clinical time once qualified will be accepted. They require you to meet similar training requirements that UK students complete and in the UK the nurse training is full time for 3 years (sometimes it can just be over 3 years) at a university

I really suggest you contact the NMC and ask them and it may even mean you submit an application allowing them to make their decision

babyNP., APRN · Jul 9, 2010

Right, well I did school full-time for 4 years (and took 2 extra classes for kicks). If the UK students did all that clinical time, they'd have to do 20 hours every single week for 3 years...that doesn't sound very realistic.

I can't believe that there are no US qualified nurses over in the UK either...no, that's not true because I've read of people online. And my program wasn't one to do short-cuts either...in fact, to get my VA license, I only needed 500 hours of clinical time. I may have to give them a call...

I also need to ask them if my internship at the hospital for a year with class, tests, and clinical hours will count for getting a child's RN license...

Silverdragon102, BSN · Jul 9, 2010

Students spend 37.5 hours a week for several weeks when they do clinical hours.

Although I trained back in 86 the students I had on the ward before I finished worked something similar and it was something like 1-2 weeks in school 8 weeks clinical on ward allocation then change for another 8 weeks on another ward (speciality would change) back in school for 1-2 weeks then on AL for 3 weeks then the process would start over again.

This may give you another idea on training but best bet to get an idea is look at a few university courses and see what they say, have included a few examples

http://www.nhscareers.nhs.uk/details/Default.aspx?Id=1941

Nursing Studies - Adult DipHE (BSc(Hons) option in year 3)

BSc (Hons) Nursing (Adult) with registration on Part 1 of NMC Register

Nursing Studies - University of Surrey - Guildford

misswoosie · Jul 9, 2010

Just out of interest, and because I knew that the clinical hours I did in my RN was way higher than BSN courses I had seen in the USA, I looked at my training transcript and I had 3,500 clinical hours and around 2,500 theory hours over 3 years.

Seems bizarre that it was only classed as a certificate.

We did something similar to what Silver dragon said ie course was 3 years , 37.5 hrs per week, every week.

2 weeks fulltime taught classroom theory, 12 weeks fulltime of cliinical,1 week fulltime taught classroom theory (consolidation) and then 3 weeks annual leave, and so it continued throughout our training.

My RN training and my post- grad nursing qualifications, were equated to a BSN in the US.

I can't believe that you only need 500 hrs clinical to get an RN license.

babyNP., APRN · Jul 9, 2010

Okay, I'm posting the following for anyone out there in the interwebz for added information...

Called the NMC this morning and got ahold of a nice guy on the phone. He told me that yes, I wouldn't be eligible. However, I could take another degree Bsc course in the UK to get the requirements or take a masters level course in the U.S. to get the qualified hours

-Asked if experience counts for anything

-Was told no, unfortunately, and that he's had to turn down people who've worked in the "Soviet Union" for 20 years or more. I laughed a little at that one--aren't they Russia and been Russia for a long time now?

Honestly, I feel like that is a bit short-sighted, that it has everything to do with your education and your experience counts for nothing. I work at one of the best NICUs in the USA, in the top ten, and arguably one of the best NICUs in the world. There is *no* higher level of care that is given elsewhere in the world...and yet if I worked here for 20 years, I wouldn't count.

My husband (a Brit) was pretty upset by this and thinks it's stupid and ridiculous. I understand the sentiment to an extent--the economy in the UK sucks and new grads can't get jobs. A run-of-the-mill RN from overseas shouldn't be getting priority/have an easier time of getting a license and a job than a British-bred person.

However...since I am married to a Brit, I am afforded the same privileges for working as any other Brit. Just like he is currently afforded the same privileges as a permanent resident in the US--he can work at any job and cannot be discriminated against with the exception being for federal jobs. So I don't feel like I am taking jobs away that I wouldn't necessarily deserve. I don't like using that word "deserve" because immigration is a privilege, not a right, but I'm not quite sure how to phrase it otherwise...

And it's a bit disappointing because it's short-sighted on their part. I would be a huge asset to a UK NICU. I did a year-long internship with classes every week along with exams while working full-time under a preceptor along with multiple continuing education classes that were NICU-specific. At the end of the year, I completed an evidence-based project to change a policy practice on the unit. It costs a TON of money to train nurses for the kind of job that I do and the UK would get me practically free of charge, once I got the overseas nursing programme completed. I think my facility spent more than a hundred thousand dollars between all the classes, preceptors who taught me, and my regular pay which they got no benefit from since I wasn't taking assignments on my own.

My husband now feels like writing to them and giving them a piece of his mind which I've told him not to, but he says he feels irritated because he says that in the UK, your experience counts 10x more than what your education might be. He has a physics degree and worked as HSBC for a couple of years before immigrating here and told me that other people who don't have a degree made a lot more money than him simply because they had a couple of years of experience on him. He said that he wouldn't be surprised if this happened in the US, but cannot believe that it is happening in the UK.

In the end, the guy was very nice and apologetic (which made me laugh because it seems like it's a cultural thing to complain to lay workers; I remember smiling at the sign in Heathrow telling us all that no verbal harrassment would be tolerated by customers)...I asked him if he got a lot of angry phone calls about this and he answered in the affirmative. Well, I might have my neonatal nurse practitioner degree then anyway...I'm hoping to have a few more years experience at my current hospital, move back to my parent's hometown, work at a delivery hospital, have a couple of kids, wait until they're in school and move over to the UK for a few years so they can learn about their culture and get to know their grandparents...

I found it interesting as well how there is no registry for nurse practitioners either...and I guess NPs weren't even introduced until 1993. It seems like the UK is behind the times on utilizing nursing effectively. My husband says he's not surprised because the 1980s were controlled by the Conservatives and gave the NHS hardly any funding and surgery wait times were ridiculous. We watched the PM debates together a few months ago and from what I'm reading online, the NHS needs more funding right now. The job market for the US RNs will probably get better as the economy grows since most of the hospitals are private, but I feel so bad for all those new grad UK RNs. I hope Mr. Cameron doesn't cut any funding...

Misswoosie, the 500 hour clinical thing was probably for ADN nurses who only have an associates (2 year) degree. US nurses are trained to be generalists and then typically spend a minimum of another 500 hours doing an internship on a medical-surgical floor guided the entire time by a preceptor. For other specialities, especially ICUs, the guided time is much, much longer. Plus we also have to take a national licensed exam...No one would ever let a new grad walk out of school onto the floor by themselves though. It would be considered gross medical negligence.

Silverdragon102, BSN · Jul 10, 2010

For a UK nurse to work in the US they have to meet the same requirements in the same way that you have to meet the UK requirements it doesn't matter what experience you have your training has to match the same as the UK trained nurse.

We have had a few UK nurses post with a few years good experience behind them who have struggled to meet US requirements because the UK training is more specialised than the US. They have had to find some way on doing both clinical and theory hours, which in the UK is very hard, to meet US requirements so that they can then sit NCLEX

I wouldn't go as far as to say the UK doesn't utilise NPs effectively because they are used greatly both in hospital and the community and in a lot of cases work totally by themselves and accountable for themselves and do not always work under the direction of a doctor

babyNP., APRN · Jul 10, 2010

I'm not saying that the US nursing license process is any easier or less frustrating--I imagine the NCLEX makes it much more frustrating for the applicants. It's a scary test and even though I passed it in 55 minutes with 75 questions, I couldn't tell you how to take care of an adult (most of the content) at all...my practice as a nurse has only been with neonates. I can't even imagine trying to take it if English wasn't my first language and I have the utmost respect for the Filipina nurses on my unit. They are smart cookies.

As far as matching the training, I would argue that my training as a NICU nurse is at par with the training that the UK nurses get for the NICU. Again, I work at a large tertiary center and the buck stops here as far as sick babies go. We do ECMO, HFOV, nitric, cooling, pediatric specialty surgeries, etc etc. So, unless there are dignoses in UK babies that the US babies don't get :lol2:

I'm glad to hear that about NPs that they are utilized more than I had originally thought--though not having licensing requirements or regulation seems a little dangerous to me...but good news that the AANPE is really pushing for this sort of thing. It looks like they've been making a lot of baby steps since the '90s and it sounds like the NMC is open to the idea, unlike the previous governing body of the UKCC.

In any case, I might get my NNP degree and decide that I want to stay the bedside or do transport...hopefully then I'll be considered qualified to take care of British babies

edit: Was looking at a couple of doctorate programs for NNP and I'd add about 1200 more hours of clinical time, bringing my time up to 1910, short of the 2300 required clinical hours...hmm. I did spent quite a few hours of skills labs, maybe those hours would count under the training, though I doubt that it's 400 hours.

misswoosie · Jul 10, 2010

okay, i'm posting the following for anyone out there in the interwebz for added information...
called the nmc this morning and got ahold of a nice guy on the phone. he told me that yes, i wouldn't be eligible. however, i could take another degree bsc course in the uk to get the requirements or take a masters level course in the u.s. to get the qualified hours
-asked if experience counts for anything
-was told no, unfortunately, and that he's had to turn down people who've worked in the "soviet union" for 20 years or more. i laughed a little at that one--aren't they russia and been russia for a long time now?
honestly, i feel like that is a bit short-sighted, that it has everything to do with your education and your experience counts for nothing. i work at one of the best nicus in the usa, in the top ten, and arguably one of the best nicus in the world. there is *no* higher level of care that is given elsewhere in the world...and yet if i worked here for 20 years, i wouldn't count. that's a very strong statement
before a foreign trained rn can even apply to sit nclex they have to go through credential evaluation, whereby the cgfns contacts your school of nursing directly and asks for a transcript of your training to check that the hours of clinical and theory in all the required areas (ie obs,med,surg,psych',paeds etc) meet the minimum requirement for rn training in the us. once you've got that approved you then have to go through visa screen to check that if you passed nclex you meet the requirements for an rn license. then you can sit nclex.
i hadn't done any paeds,psych,obs,ortho for 20 years and used to listen to cds in the car for revision.i did practice questions for 4 months before
just like the uk- experience doesn't count
my husband (a brit) was pretty upset by this and thinks it's stupid and ridiculous. i understand the sentiment to an extent--the economy in the uk sucks and new grads can't get jobs. a run-of-the-mill rn from overseas shouldn't be getting priority/have an easier time of getting a license and a job than a british-bred person.
however...since i am married to a brit, i am afforded the same privileges for working as any other brit. just like he is currently afforded the same privileges as a permanent resident in the us--he can work at any job and cannot be discriminated against with the exception being for federal jobs. so i don't feel like i am taking jobs away that i wouldn't necessarily deserve. i don't like using that word "deserve" because immigration is a privilege, not a right, but i'm not quite sure how to phrase it otherwise...
and it's a bit disappointing because it's short-sighted on their part. i would be a huge asset to a uk nicu. i did a year-long internship with classes every week along with exams while working full-time under a preceptor along with multiple continuing education classes that were nicu-specific. at the end of the year, i completed an evidence-based project to change a policy practice on the unit. it costs a ton of money to train nurses for the kind of job that i do and the uk would get me practically free of charge, once i got the overseas nursing programme completed. i think my facility spent more than a hundred thousand dollars between all the classes, preceptors who taught me, and my regular pay which they got no benefit from since i wasn't taking assignments on my own.
it's very frustrating for those of us who have jumped through all the hoops, paid our $$$$ for attorney fees etc, passed nclex and been offered a job in the us, to then find out that we have to wait 8 years before we can work, especially when some of us have 20 years experience ,often in very specailised areas, just like you have
you are in an enviable position coming to a foreign country and knowing that you can apply for a job without any of the red tape (once you are registered with the nmc. i have the equivalent of a bsn in the us, but only because of all the other training i've done since qualifying.
your nicu course sounds like the old english national board specialist certificates.i did the anaesthetic and recovery course in 1990.it was full time for 6 months and involved working in different anaesthetic specialty areas. we had various assessments including a project and a written exam. in their wisdom when they moved the uk nurse training to the universities, they decided that the enb course didn't deserve any credit points towards doing your bsn or diploma.
my husband now feels like writing to them and giving them a piece of his mind which i've told him not to, but he says he feels irritated because he says that in the uk, your experience counts 10x more than what your education might be. he has a physics degree and worked as hsbc for a couple of years before immigrating here and told me that other people who don't have a degree made a lot more money than him simply because they had a couple of years of experience on him. he said that he wouldn't be surprised if this happened in the us, but cannot believe that it is happening in the uk.
yes , it certainly does happen in the us. my husband works for a hospital as a health researcher.he has a ba in accountancy and a masters in health research plus 17 years work experience and gets paid far less than, for eg, a rn at co-ordinator level who isn't even requiredto have a bsn, and might only need 3 years experience, let alone a masters
as for the uk, look at nurses and the police force, or even nurses and physical therapists. no policeman is expected to have a degree, but progresses far more quickly and easily to a salary in excess of 30,000 gbp, but most nurses would be expected to have a bachelors and maybe a masters to be working at a band 6-7, or certainly band 7. the physio band 7s weren't expected to meet the same requirements..
in the end, the guy was very nice and apologetic (which made me laugh because it seems like it's a cultural thing to complain to lay workers; i remember smiling at the sign in heathrow telling us all that no verbal harrassment would be tolerated by customers)...i asked him if he got a lot of angry phone calls about this and he answered in the affirmative. well, i might have my neonatal nurse practitioner degree then anyway...i'm hoping to have a few more years experience at my current hospital, move back to my parent's hometown, work at a delivery hospital, have a couple of kids, wait until they're in school and move over to the uk for a few years so they can learn about their culture and get to know their grandparents...
i found it interesting as well how there is no registry for nurse practitioners either...and i guess nps weren't even introduced until 1993. it seems like the uk is behind the times on utilizing nursing effectively. my husband says he's not surprised because the 1980s were controlled by the conservatives and gave the nhs hardly any funding and surgery wait times were ridiculous. we watched the pm debates together a few months ago and from what i'm reading online, the nhs needs more funding right now. the job market for the us rns will probably get better as the economy grows since most of the hospitals are private, but i feel so bad for all those new grad uk rns. i hope mr. cameron doesn't cut any funding...
oh , they're using them now ok since the new eu working time directive came into effect and cut doctors hours. do you know how low a np salary is in the uk compared to the us?
he already said that there are no pay rises for public service workers, and you can bet your botton $$$ that they will cut nurse numbers. problem with the nhs is that they spend the money in the wrong places ie too many managers.
i actually got my best pay rise ever as an rn when the conservatives were in power and they brought out clinical grading for nurses. since then we've fallen further and further behind other professional public service workers"
misswoosie, the 500 hour clinical thing was probably for adn nurses who only have an associates (2 year) degree- color="red"]but still a rn and allowed to practice as suchus nurses are trained to be generalistsyes , ours used to be too, but we went straight out as rns and took charge of wards. we had enough clinical experience to do this and had been practising for it in our final year of training and then typically spend a minimum of another 500 hours doing an internship on a medical-surgical floor guided the entire time by a preceptor. for other specialities, especially icus, the guided time is much, much longer.exactly the same as in the uk. plus we also have to take a national licensed exam...no one would ever let a new grad walk out of school onto the floor by themselves though. it would be considered gross medical negligence.

i think you may be in for a surprise nursing in the uk, but good luck anyway.

babyNP., APRN · Jul 10, 2010

That's a very strong statement

Well, I don't mean to sound uppity, but it's true. The only thing we don't do are transplants.

If you read in my next post to SilverDragon, I noted that the US licensing isn't any easier or less frustrating. I also elaborated on the NCLEX and how I admire my Filipina colleagues who passed it despite the large cultural differences and that English was not their first language. I feel bad for the overseas nurses with all the beaurocracy that they have to endure, not to mention US immigration. I wouldn't wish that on anyone :lol2: having gone through it to get hubby here (took 8 months from applying to get a fiance visa) and continuing on to get his green card. Just sent 1 pound 1 ounce package for that yesterday and anticipate 4-6 months for a green card. If we were going to the UK, you can get it approved in less than a week...

As far as being in an enviable position, it's only because I am married to a British citizen. If you were married to a US citizen, you would be allowed with little trouble to achieve permanent residency here and be able to work without immigration issues. The rub would lie with getting licensed, of course. It's not as though I earned the right to work in the UK, it just happened to be that I met my husband at a conference in Toronto, fell in love, and got married two years later. Being able to immigrate to the UK is a side benefit. I wouldn't be trying to immigrate to the UK later on in life if this weren't the case (especially as you've mentioned, the pay rate is not very good; I make more as a RN now than a band 7 salary nurse, and pretty darn close to the salary of a band 8 nurse -->these are advance practitioners for anyone else reading this)...it's largely so that my future kids can learn about their culture and see their grandparents on a regular basis. In the same breath, it would be nice to not have to give up my career in order to provide that sort of opportunity for them. I love the UK for a lot of things, but it's not my home. I told hubby that I couldn't live there more than a few years.

I'm sure I'd be in for a huge cultural shock and surprise for UK nursing. It's not something you can exactly prepare for but I'm a planner and am researching this now for the future of it being a possibility in 10 years or so. It's pretty hard to find information, so all of your posts everyone has been very enlightening--especially about the Conservatives. Unfortunately, I tend to get a very one-sided view slated towards the Labour party as hubby is an extreme liberal along with his parents. I was actually fairly impressed with some of the stuff that Mr. Cameron had to say. My husband says it's because the Conservative party would be almost like a liberal party in the US :lol2:

Again, thank you everyone contributing so far with this exchange of information :up: