The Circumcision Discussion - page 43
I know this can be a HUGE debate, and I'm not looking to start any arguments. I was just wondering as you are OB nurses. I'm expecting a boy in July and not sure if we should circ. or not. My... Read More
Jun 15, '07Occupation: ER / Educator Specialty: 10 year(s) of experience in Instructor/ER/Sports Med ; Joined: Jul '04; Posts: 230; Likes: 54BARABRIC....PLEASE, boob jobs and lipo are barbaric but they sure look nice later!:spin:
Jun 15, '07Occupation: LTC Specialty: 9 year(s) of experience ; Joined: May '04; Posts: 3,422; Likes: 1,298Quote from rockthe prodedure is barbaric. there is no medical reason for circumcisions.
in the case of phimosis (rare), a dorsal slit can be performed instead of circumcison.
the following web site has pros/cons:
i'm feeling the same way. when my son was born i tried to talk my husband out of it but he wanted it done. i can't be for sure, but it didn't seem like my baby was as happy as he had been before.
he told me this time to look at the baby's weenie and be the judge: if it looks funny to me then have it done. i am not going to have it done.
Jun 15, '07Specialty: 5 year(s) of experience in Telemetry, Nursery, Post-Partum ; Joined: Sep '06; Posts: 220; Likes: 22Quote from CSLee3So, are you saying a circumcision makes a penis look nicer later? And, boob jobs and lipo are not something forced on you (at least hopefully not!), you get to make that decision for yourself as a mature adult.BARABRIC....PLEASE, boob jobs and lipo are barbaric but they sure look nice later!:spin:
Jun 16, '07Occupation: Lactation consultant, L&D RN, some postpartum Specialty: OB, lactation ; Joined: Oct '03; Posts: 1,951; Likes: 96Quote from indigoSame here, except I try not to assist if I can help it (I usually don't do it b/c I do more L&D than postpartum). Some of our docs use pain relief measures but I have NEVER seen a baby not scream even with EMLA &/or lido blocks. And, yes the screaming changes from one kind to another when being strapped to the circumstraint vs. actually getting tissue separated/ clamped/ crushed/ cut. People have desensitized themselves to it (whether consciously or not). I think, if an adult was in that circumstraint, people would realize how tortuous it is and would never let it happen, at least not that way. They stand there and talk about the weather like nothing is going on.To circ or not to circ? I am an OB nurse who assists with circs and it is SO totally barbaric-seeming. The babies scream and cry and they come out with a swollen, bloody penis. For what. I am also the mother of three uncircumcised sons and none of them have ever had a problem. I am so glad I didn't have them cut on when they were so brand new to the world. I feel so glad when new parents don't want to circ. It's about 50/50 where I work.
Like most guys in the world, my three boys are fine - never an issue socially or physically (and it was actually my (cut) husband who initially was like "you don't have to do that!" when I brought it up with our first pregnancy...leading me to read up on it).
I just hope parents to be will educate themselves and make the best decision for their families either way. With this, though, I think the rate will continue to drop a little because sometimes people chose to do it for a reason that isn't even true & with education they will realize mistaken beliefs more often.
It's a good debate, that's for sure!
Jun 16, '07Occupation: Lactation consultant, L&D RN, some postpartum Specialty: OB, lactation ; Joined: Oct '03; Posts: 1,951; Likes: 96Quote from CSLee3LOL... waaayyyy OT but that's not always true, either!BARABRIC....PLEASE, boob jobs and lipo are barbaric but they sure look nice later!:spin:
Tara Reid Gets 'Ugliest' Breast Impant Surgery [and lipo] Repaired ""If I had to do it again, I never would have done it in the first place," she said to hosts Rosie O'Donnell and Joy Behar on "The View."
More from the FDA
More from another consumer group breastimplantinfo.org
Almost all boob jobs will have to have additional "work" at some point precisely because they aren't looking so nice later ("4 out of 10 reconstruction patients need additional surgery within three years of getting implants.").
I have friends who are happy with theirs of course, but also more than one friend who wishes she just stayed with her "minis" LOL
PS... and I've never heard of a boob job pt screaming at the top of their lungs in pain during a boob job either... it's not barbaric like that at all...Last edit by mitchsmom on Jun 16, '07
Jun 16, '07Occupation: LTC Specialty: 9 year(s) of experience ; Joined: May '04; Posts: 3,422; Likes: 1,298Quote from mitchsmom
PS... and I've never heard of a boob job pt screaming at the top of their lungs in pain during a boob job either... it's not barbaric like that at all...
I wish I had mini's, and those boob jobs never look real.
Jun 17, '07Occupation: L&D RN Joined: Jan '04; Posts: 41; Likes: 2Quote from cslee3okay, i will bite...tree huggers don't all attack me at once okay, i don't consider myself a tree hugger, but i am an educated nurse who has read several books and a lot of online articles about circumcision for the past five years and a mother of two beautiful natural aka intact boys, so i'll take my turn now thank you...speaking as a male...get the circ. your child will thank you or hate you when he finds out what circ is and what was taken from him...especially when you have access to research that shows that circ is unnecessary,painful, not recommended by the aap, has long term side effects your doctor probably won't tell you about such as adhesions when he grows up in this cruel unfair world. doesn't routine infant circumcision contribute to a cruel unfair world? .this is a hot topic with a lot of schools, folks and so on. there is so much research and stats out there it can be confusing. most reports i have seen are in support of the procedure, citing hiv rates and std transfer rates condoms...hmmmm....it's really scary to think that some circumcised men might actually think that because they're circumcised they don't need condoms...and how come the us has one of the highest circ rates and one of the highest std rates?? as well as cancer. yes, circumcision is required for three things...cancer, frostbite and gangreen...all incredibly rare and only after the fact...not to prevent...i mean really, what is the rate of penile cancer...less than a fraction of a percent...i guess since 1/8 women (including my mother) get breast cancer we should start removing those too on unconsenting baby girls...we can give them implants (you, know, while at the same time they're getting the newborn screen since it's all a bit painful) and they can have big beautiful cancer free boobs to "flaunt" in the locker room...of course we all know studies can be slanted any way the author intends. realistically...my so is l&d clinician..she says that at her facility the rates for circ run about 60% for and 40% not doing procedure. some choices are based on education, research by the family, the forty percent i would bet some by religion or culture, but quite honestly a good portion of these new moms can't even spell their name much less know the father and the rationale of circumcision or not is the last thing on their mind. these moms don't want the nurse to change the channel, casue springer is on, or they need a smoke break. a good majority of the 60%, especially if they live in a state where medicaid still covers it...getting back to your question...
some docs use suprapubic blocks with lidocaine, some use local lido cream, emla cream pre and post procedure, yet others use nothing. to be honest, i can't remember my procedure, so it must not have caused too much trauma to me as some child experts would say. usually if they are speaking out about it, they don't have one, don't have one what? a circ?? a penis?? you don't have a foreskin. you don't know what you're missing. please don't advocate for others to have theirs removed too! or could be a hypocritacle view such as the peta president talking about us evil meat eaters, and he is wearing a leather watch bank, belt and leather shoes...but...speak to the doctor and make your wishes/demands be known. start a rapport with him or her. (just make sure no epi finds it's way into the lido mix...things can fall off with vasoconstriction! lol). there is gomco, mogan, plastybell and good old fashion custom carving! this makes me want to throw up. the gomco procedure and mogan are very popular in these parts. they go really fast, with minimal side effects. depending on where you live, your family, friends, social circles...these may very well all have a part in your decision. make it yours and not any one else's including mine. most "boys" want to look like their dad..if this if the only reason, so be it. he might well thank you later. really...interesting...how often do you think about your father's penis? how often did you think about it growing up?did you and your father parade around naked? i assume he waxed and kept his on ice so they were entirely identical...or you could have been traumatised!!! and i bet most boys would rather look like their friends than their dads, and at the rate that circ is dropping, circ is the minority in many places! especially the west coast states! however, keep in mind that adults rarely undergo elective circs and once the baby is discharged it is almost impossible for medicaid or insurance, hmos etc. to pay for it.
tough decision but considering all the poor baby has to go through like being shoved into this mean world and getting their heels stuck with needles, injections in the thigh and meds in their eyes, etc. etc. the circ turns out to be another unpleasant experiences, if they are premies, they may even get lavage fed, frequent blood draws ,etc. so look at it as another procedure. if we stop one for the pain it causes, should we stop all??? yes, the unnecessary genital mutilating ones absolutely. the cord when cut, could transmit pain....hehe you never know what some will come up with.there are no nerve endings in the cord, there are however thousands in the foreskin. comparing the two is like grasping at straws
anyway...hope that helps....hang in there and good luck with your new family member!:spin:
to the op...please read the case against circumcision as a starting point...you owe it to your baby to be completely informed before you even consider putting him through this procedure.
there is nothing that can completely eliminate the pain. and after the procedure, almost all babies get nothing...and they are peeing small amounts of concentrated urine onto a raw wound for several days. then around 70% of babies in the first year or life will get adhesions (since the trend for circs these days is to be looser--adhesions are the penis trying to heal itself) and doctors will rip the adhesions and cause even more pain and bleeding. it's a vicious cycle, better off left well enough alone!
Jun 18, '07Occupation: Stay at home mother and student Joined: Jan '07; Posts: 1,088; Likes: 280My son is 5 and he has NOT been circumcised. I know it is not the best decision. I could not bear the thought of him having to go through that. No way! No how!
Jun 18, '07Occupation: semi-retired Specialty: 50 year(s) of experience in Psych, Derm,Eye,Ortho,Prison,Surg,Med, ; Joined: Jan '03; Posts: 187; Likes: 17
Jun 19, '07Occupation: Emergency RN Specialty: 8 year(s) of experience in Emergency Nursing, Pediatrics, Obstetric ; From: US ; Joined: Mar '07; Posts: 43; Likes: 33just a thought, how do the opposers feel about toddlers etc. getting their ears pierced. they obviously have the choice made for them/or at least did not know that it hurts. not to copare circs with ear piercing, im not doing that. i am for them and equally support those who opt out. i do see a better level of analgesia with the lido block. all our pediatricians do them. i seem to be the assist most of the time on these as i usually try to get assigned to he nursery. from my experience, at my hospital, it probably 80 percent
Jun 19, '07Specialty: 5 year(s) of experience in Telemetry, Nursery, Post-Partum ; Joined: Sep '06; Posts: 220; Likes: 22Quote from joeb1isn't it funny...but i wish my parents had gotten my ears pierced when i was a toddler, and they would have had to take care of them for me at first! i was older when i finally talked them into it, but got freaked out about taking care of it...so i just got infection after infection. finally my mom made me take them out...or maybe i gave up? and whenever I have tried again I just get all freaked out about taking care of the piercings. Its sad, but I just can't do it, but I love, love, love earrings. Maybe someday I will try again (yeah right). But, if I had them done when I was really little, and grew up with normal healthy piercings, maybe it would all be okay. Guess its not important enough to worry about, and definitely off topic, sorry!just a thought, how do the opposers feel about toddlers etc. getting their ears pierced. they obviously have the choice made for them/or at least did not know that it hurts.
Jun 19, '07Occupation: Travel Hospitalist NP Specialty: Pulmonology/Critical Care, Internal Med ; From: US ; Joined: Jun '06; Posts: 227; Likes: 46I'm a male. I'm circ'd. I'm happy I'm circ'd. Any boys I have/adopt will be circ'd. I was circ'd in Germany (not common there) and they used full anesthesia in Germany, actually they use full anesthesia back when I was born for labor and delivery if the mother wanted it. I am very glad that anesthesia was used on me, and MANY studies have shown that males that are circ'd without anesthesia have a much lower pain threshold than males who were circ'd with adequate anesthesia. Not using anesthesia of some sort (EMLA, etc) is to me malpractice....you wouldn't dare circ an adult without anesthesia, so why should we allow it for a neonate, they can feel pain just like we do. If you do it, REQUIRE your doc to use anesthesia and more important make sure he waits long enough to make sure it has had time to work.
Below are just a few articles I found quickly off of the Medline database there were too many too look through them all. I think the line that is quoted in the last of the three articles refrenced is most important for all of us here.
Anand KJ. Johnston CC. Oberlander TF. Taddio A. Lehr VT. Walco GA. Analgesia and local anesthesia during invasive procedures in the neonate. [Review] [298 refs] [Journal Article. Research Support, N.I.H., Extramural. Research Support, U.S. Gov't, Non-P.H.S.. Research Support, U.S. Gov't, P.H.S.. Review] Clinical Therapeutics. 27(6):844-76, 2005 Jun.
Razmus IS. Dalton ME. Wilson D. Pain management for newborn circumcision. [Clinical Trial. Comparative Study. Controlled Clinical Trial. Journal Article] Pediatric Nursing. 30(5):414-7, 427, 2004 Sep-Oct.
Malnory M. Johnson TS. Kirby RS. Newborn behavioral and physiological responses to circumcision.[see comment]. [Clinical Trial. Controlled Clinical Trial. Journal Article] MCN, American Journal of Maternal Child Nursing. 28(5):313-7; quiz 318-9, 2003 Sep-Oct.
"this study suggests that preoperative analgesia before circumcision could be helpful in managing the pain of circumcision. Nurses have a responsibility to advocate for policy and practices changes that provide interventions for pain relief for all newborns."
Jun 20, '07Occupation: NICU RN Joined: Oct '00; Posts: 2,537; Likes: 370Quote from joeb1I think babies with pierced ears look stupid, too.just a thought, how do the opposers feel about toddlers etc. getting their ears pierced. they obviously have the choice made for them/or at least did not know that it hurts.