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Nursing Shortage? Maybe not so much . . .

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You are reading page 3 of Nursing Shortage? Maybe not so much . . .. If you want to start from the beginning Go to First Page.

Silverdragon102 has 30 years experience as a BSN and specializes in Medical and general practice now LTC.

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nursel56 has 25+ years experience and specializes in peds//ambulatory care/HH-private duty.

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I guess it's a good thing I'm on the 9 year BSN plan :lol2:

Funny! I like to joke I'm in the graduating class of 2026. I may not get a job, but I'll probably get some local press coverage with a picture of me hobbling up the stairs to get my diploma :/

Edited by nursel56

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I don't mean no harm, but as for the people who are suggesting all BSNs, let one of them be in the hospital as a patient and if they had to choose between an Assoc RN with 10 yrs of acute experience such as ICU, med-surge, tele or etc or a New graduate BSN with no experience at all, there is no second guessing on who they would most likely choose. It is more evident now more than ever that degrees are more important than experience. That degree will not help save a life but experience will.

I agree, but that argument doesn't really address the issue. Anyone with any amount of experience over another in a certain area is going to 'run circles' around a person without that experience, no matter how much the other person knows or what degrees/certifications they may have. I'll bet we can even find a number of examples of non-nurses who could run circles around an inexperienced new nursing grad (maybe they've been taking care of very ill relatives or were military medics or the like).

Heck, maybe two years of pre-licensure nursing school is arleady really more than is needed.

(Actually, I like the idea of granting some level of licensure to second year nursing students so that they aren't so limited in clinicals).

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The economy does funny things but even prior to the economy there were programs popping up for crime scene investigators due to CSI. I hear a lot about criminal justice and now cyber security. Some of the programs are being pushed by for-profit schools but even CCs have jumped on the band wagon. I remember not too long ago, a woman in NY tried to sue a for-profit school for a computer tech program that told her that her degree would guarantee her a job but it didn't. Anyway, I want to go into nursing despite a pay cut that I'd endure to do so.

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SummitRN has 5 years experience and specializes in ICU.

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I am tired of the economy excuse. This is not valid in nursing or any other industry. If anyone remembers Obama's Union speech, he also encouraged college (I think it was more encouraging government loans to ease a future deficit). Education in general will be our next economic crisis. Many unemployed have returned to school to not just try to get a job (which they will find the market saturated when they graduate), but to collect the student loan/grant money to just try and survive.

The nursing industry will continue to require more and more education to assist with lawsuits and thinking that many of the complaints from LPNs and ASN RNs will give way with a better educated group. I think this will backfire. As a BSN student, I think they will realize that having that many higher-educated people on their payroll will result in higher demands for better work environments and patient care. All of the "suck it up" statements of administrators will be met with valid, educated, evidenced based nursing rationales. I have heard rumors of a MSN requirement in the years to come. As JACO and other business organization continue to require things that are not necessary according to the law (i.e. LPNs working in hospitals is not illegal-at least not in my state). However magnet status is the new black. I am not a big fan of unions, but I am for employees advocating for themselves. Many nurses just seem to accept things the way they are and never even report issues to the proper authorities, they just quit. I think this problem will decrease as BSNs saturate hospitals and when no one else signs up for LPN and ASN programs. I am sorry, but after I spend 100K for a BSN, I will not tolerate being treated poorly (not that I really do now with my LPN). Many BSN graduates will also feel over qualified to do many of the "dirty" work that many CNAs, LPNs, MAs and ASNs feel are part of basic nursing care. As the population grows in size and nurses grow in age, who is going to help turn, lift, and treat this obese nation?

Thanks for listening.

What an excellent post.

The answer, I think, is that not only will BSNs ask "why did I get a 4 year degree to wipe poop and change the sheets?" someone in management will also say "why are we paying someone with a 4 year degree to wipe poop and change the sheets?" You'll see higher RN to patient ratios, but with RNs doing more RN skills like assesment, meds, etc, and more CNAs hired for "mundane" tasks. This will make sure the hospitals are "getting their moneys worth." However, with the massive oversupply of labor, the economic impetus is not quite there yet. The stench of desperation has to lift from labor first before they start asking such questions and right now the dominance of BSN entry is just a trend, not cemented.

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nursel56 has 25+ years experience and specializes in peds//ambulatory care/HH-private duty.

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What an excellent post.

The answer, I think, is that not only will BSNs ask "why did I get a 4 year degree to wipe poop and change the sheets?" someone in management will also say "why are we paying someone with a 4 year degree to wipe poop and change the sheets?" You'll see higher RN to patient ratios, but with RNs doing more RN skills like assesment, meds, etc, and more CNAs hired for "mundane" tasks. This will make sure the hospitals are "getting their moneys worth." However, with the massive oversupply of labor, the economic impetus is not quite there yet. The stench of desperation has to lift from labor first before they start asking such questions and right now the dominance of BSN entry is just a trend, not cemented.

It's an excellent post with a few things I don't think we can say for sure at this point. Not sure what is meant by the reference to lawsuits but I would not say that LPNs or ASNs are more likely to tolerate poor working conditions or don't advocate for improving patient care in their facilities. I don't think the reason administrators tell their staff to "suck it up" is because nobody has presented a valid, highly educated, evidence-based nursing rationale or that it would result in actions not in their best interest. It would take a lot more than that for the people who hold all the cards to make concessions I'm afraid.

Historically, the most powerful unions are composed of large numbers of people on the lower end of the scale who operate based on solidarity and a willingness to make sacrifices in your life to make the other guy's life better even if you will not see a direct benefit to yourself. I think nurses have a ways to go on that one. No nurse should tolerate mistreatment whether they shelled out 0 dollars or anything above that to pay for their education.

I don't want to start "poop wars" but I know many BSN nurses who feel the "dirty work" is part of basic nursing care, but likely there will be an ample number of CNAs and techs to assist with those things.

Novairene - you've picked up on something that doesn't get nearly enough attention (that I've seen) and that is that we're faced with an obesity crisis really ... I used to be skeptical. I would say oh come on we've always had big people. The number of young, morbidly obese people in nursing homes is both sad and scary. I don't think we are nearly up and running to provide the type of services these people will ultimately need.

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It's an excellent post with a few things I don't think we can say for sure at this point. Not sure what is meant by the reference to lawsuits but I would not say that LPNs or ASNs are more likely to tolerate poor working conditions or don't advocate for improving patient care in their facilities. I don't think the reason administrators tell their staff to "suck it up" is because nobody has presented a valid, highly educated, evidence-based nursing rationale or that it would result in actions not in their best interest. It would take a lot more than that for the people who hold all the cards to make concessions I'm afraid.

Historically, the most powerful unions are composed of large numbers of people on the lower end of the scale who operate based on solidarity and a willingness to make sacrifices in your life to make the other guy's life better even if you will not see a direct benefit to yourself. I think nurses have a ways to go on that one. No nurse should tolerate mistreatment whether they shelled out 0 dollars or anything above that to pay for their education.

I don't want to start "poop wars" but I know many BSN nurses who feel the "dirty work" is part of basic nursing care, but likely there will be an ample number of CNAs and techs to assist with those things.

Novairene - you've picked up on something that doesn't get nearly enough attention (that I've seen) and that is that we're faced with an obesity crisis really ... I used to be skeptical. I would say oh come on we've always had big people. The number of young, morbidly obese people in nursing homes is both sad and scary. I don't think we are nearly up and running to provide the type of services these people will ultimately need.

I did not mean to appear that BSNs would not do basic patient or that no one has ever given good valid reasons for better patient care.

However, I think administrators will find it harder to argue with BSNs. As a LPN, I am often met with "well get your RN and then we will talk" and I know some of my ASN friends that hear the same thing about BSN.

I have a business background, so I know the money is talking with these hospitals and facilities. Remember, business is always about selling (a service or product). These business managers (as that is what is running health care now) care about MONEY, not patient care. They SELL (not provide) patient care and have no idea what is like on the floor. They think if we are "nice" to our patients, then they will get over the fact that it takes 15 minutes to answer a call light or that their condition gets worse due to lack in staffing. I am sorry, but I think my patients care about LIVING. They do not care if we have the latest computer charting/reminder system (I love how administrators think that nurses/other staff need BETTER reminders for something like turning someone Q2hrs, NO we need the staff to be able to do it). I am sure that a cancer patient would rather have the hospital spend more money on research than on the new granite floor in the lobby. This is just gold plating a MAJOR health care crisis. Instead of opening ANOTHER bariatric surgery center, why not open a gym that is free to the public so we PREVENT obesity.

As for unions, I think that unions cause more problems than they are worth. I recommend Karl Marx's book "The Communist Manifesto". You may change your outlook regarding unions after reading it.

Nurses need to advocate for themselves (and their patients). If the entire unit/hospital of nurses are miserable, than go on "strike" you do not need a union to unite and make demands. If only 1 or 2 people keep quitting and getting replaced, then nothing will ever happen. They will take the high turnover (even though the cost of turnover is more than hiring more staff and giving better benefits) to "giving in" any day.

I am very concerned with the future of patient care. Nurses are overworked and are burning faster than any other industry. Doctors are getting fed up with the red tape to just get paid. The number of unlicensed staff in hospitals/facilities is outweighing the number of professionals. We are becoming a VERY sick nation.

I hope that things change soon, but I think it is going to get worse before it gets better.

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JacobK has 2 years experience and specializes in IMC.

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Why are the powers that be pushing BSN during economic downturn?

Because when the economy was flying high hospitals could hire more nurses leading to the "nursing shortage." 5 years ago any mention of elevating level of entry to BSN was met with consistent cries of "We have a nursing shortage we need all the RNs available!" That made it impossible to elevate the level of entry because they supposedly needed as many nursing grads as possible.

Now that there is a glut of new grads available, employers have their choice of who to hire, so why wouldn't they hire up a BSN instead of a ADN? There is really no other time that BSN can be pushed except for economic downturns.

I know a lot of people won't like this post but that's how it goes.

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I do think it's easier to push for BSN-entry in tight times; in the long-run, though, is it sustainable? Or maybe we as an ever-changing society need to go through a crisis

...BSN-required, not enough BSNs both willing and adequately prepared to work bedside more than just a year or two, increased costs to make bedside more appealing along with worsening 'shortage' of nurses (willing & able to work at bedside, that is), and then what? heavy recruiting of international nurses who have fewer options in their home country than US BSNs have in the US? increased role for unlicensed personnel in nursing care?

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But there must be a shortage lurking somewhere - colleges wouldn't intentionally lure potential nursing students just for money, would they?

A Convenient Adult-Learning Experience

By the year 2020, the U.S. healthcare industry expects to see a shortage of 800,000 registered nurses, just as the aging baby-boomer population increases its demand on medical services. With this in mind, [name deleted to protect the guilty] University has developed a program to help students who have non-nursing bachelor's degrees prepare for a nursing career in as little as two years of full-time study. Here is how it works:

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But there must be a shortage lurking somewhere - colleges wouldn't intentionally lure potential nursing students just for money, would they?

Oh yes they would!! Why are still trying to lure LPNs with an almost "dead" market for jobs for LPNs? Because they want the money. They want to stay accredited with the nursing board.

There are other jobs that are "going away" and colleges are still advertising them as GREAT (i.e. librarian, journalism). They want students. They also know that many LPN students go on to get their RN, so instead of getting rid of their LPN programs and having more RN "spots", they make students get their LPN and then pay again to get their RN the following year.

I do believe the previous post was right, how many nurses can stay at bedside for more than 1-2 years? Not many. However, that would probably change if the bedside jobs didn't suck so bad. An increase in staffing could really help morale and decrease burnout.

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PMFB-RN has 16 years experience and specializes in burn ICU, SICU, ER, Traum Rapid Response.

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But there must be a shortage lurking somewhere - colleges wouldn't intentionally lure potential nursing students just for money, would they?

*** Greedy nursing schools after more $bucks$, from for profit nursing schools charging outrageous fees for basic nursing education and LYING to their students about their job prospects to state university's unneeded and silly DNP programs aren't the half of it.

Employers of nurses stand to gain enormously from a glut of nurses. No more more need to improve working conditions or maintain competitive wages, or offer fair and reasonable benefits if any unhappy nurse who leaves has three or four RNs ready to take their place.

My last hospital had always had many, many RN openings. Suddenly in 2009 they found themselves with many more applicants than openings. Nearly all the opening we had at that time were filled with part timers who went full time. There was an immediate change in management's attitude towards it's nurses. The education assistance program - gone, annual cost of living raises, already a measly 2-3% - gone, performance based raises - gone, Baylor program - gone. Their whole attitude went from "how can we help you and make things better for our patients and nurses" to "this is the way it is, the way we want it. If you don't like there's the door".

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