What it takes to solve the nursing shortage - page 3

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  1. by   c_beshore_rn
    I agree with ceo's and other administrative type nurses and hospital staff taking a paycut or forgoing their annual raises!(which will never happen). We have postions in our hospital that are simply non-sense. BUT...we have seen such drastic cuts in medicare and medicaid the last few years that it has sliced into the budgets of all hospitals. Our hospital depends about 75% of these funds to stay in operation. Now, people come in on medicaid or medicare for pneumonia, given 1 day of fluids and IV ABT and kicked out the door. Of course, you and I know that they will be back with more severe symptoms! This ends up costing more money in the end!! No sense what-so-ever!
  2. by   CapeCodMermaid
    If you all take the time to actually read the article, it doesn't say there is a shortage of regular nurses....you know...the ones who actually take care of patients. It says there is a shortage of nurses with advanced degrees...Masters and PhDs. The nursing instructors around here make far less than I do so who would spend the extra time and money on an advanced degree and not reap any financial benefit? (and yes, I know we're not all in it for the money)
  3. by   Valerie Salva
    Quote from CapeCodMermaid
    If you all take the time to actually read the article, it doesn't say there is a shortage of regular nurses....you know...the ones who actually take care of patients. It says there is a shortage of nurses with advanced degrees...Masters and PhDs. The nursing instructors around here make far less than I do so who would spend the extra time and money on an advanced degree and not reap any financial benefit? (and yes, I know we're not all in it for the money)
    Me. I have finally decided to seriously pursue an MS. I just got my 4th back injury last week. I cannot take nursing much longer physically. And really, I'm just tired.

    MS prepared nursing instructors make about $40,000./year where I live.
  4. by   RockyCreek
    At the risk of stating the obvious -- there is no nursing shortage! What we have is thousands and thousands of nurses that are not chosing to practice because of the long hours, physical demands and lack of pay. Sending new grads into the mix is not the answer because the schools are NOT producing nurses ready to practice in the present environment. What we need are the nurses that graduated and practiced years ago and dropped out/burned out. I am not naive -- I realize that the problem is complex and there is no easy answer. There is NO one 'solution' to all the issues but IMHO the reintroduction of the presently licensed but inactive nurses has major advantages over mass producing new graduates.
  5. by   grahajas
    Quote from Valerie Salva
    I don't think tax payer stimulous money should pay for new grad internships, just because hospital fat cats are too greedy to pay for it.
    $50 million outlay for the National Endowment for the Arts
    $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.
    $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.
    $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.
    $1.2 billion for "youth activities,"

    The list could go on I even saw something about saving toads.

    Instead your tax dollars will be spent on this soon to be Homeless Veteran who blew his GI bill on a sorority that will never be apart of the fraternity unless they start to act like one. How many doctors are out of there profession in 2 years?
  6. by   JodyDRN
    Ooohhh how I soooo agree with you!!:clphnds:I graduated last May of "08" and I developed some serious neck problems from searching on-line for nursing jobs all over the country!! I finally landed an on-call position at a short stay rehab nursing home. I get about 3 days , if lucky, per pay period. I know, I know, I should and do feel lucky to have a job, but it really stinks when most of my paycheck has to go for my student loans of $70,000 that I owe. I should have stayed in waitressing! The money was good , wayyyy less stress AND.. I was debt free. What the @#%$ was I thinking?!! I just wanted to care for people. I had no idea that I would be digging myself into severe debt with no real job to pay it back, let alone a job that is sooo stressful that it keeps me from sleeping at night. All I can say is....WHY???!!!
    Last edit by JodyDRN on Jun 29, '09
  7. by   jjjoy
    We've got several issues... For one, there's a shortage of decent nursing jobs that allow nurses to give quality care without burning out and that allow for professional growth. Too many jobs put so much upon the nurses that it's literally impossible to properly carry out all of their responsibilities. Day after day, they are forced to compromise their care in order to at least meet the highest priorities. And competitive wages should be in ADDITION to better working conditions; not as some kind of trade off for miserable working conditions. Many nurses leave bedside nursing because of conditions, not because of the work itself or even the pay.

    There's also a shortage of nurses who *already* have the needed skills to do a job because just having a license isn't enough for many nursing jobs out there. Saying "there's a shortage of nurses" is way too general. What kind of nurses? In many places it's floor-ready acute care nurses and LTC nurses. Or maybe the shortage in some areas if of nurses willing to take on impossible work loads for a low pay.

    So another aspect of the problem is the glaring gap between new grad skill levels and the desired skill level for entry level bedside nurses. Ideally, new grads would be perfectly prepared for entry-level work, but frequently that's not the case. Too often the 6-12 weeks generally alotted for new grads to get their bearings isn't enough.

    While it would be nice for hospitals to pay for more extended training for newbies, it's not unreasonable for hospitals to want to avoid that. They could hire someone barely minimally qualified and train them for 3-6 months and hope they get it. Or they could hold out, leaving the position unfilled, hoping that a more qualified candidate appears in the next 3-6 months who has already proven their abilities and can jump right in to the job role.

    Desperate facilities will often hire nurses who DON'T have the necessary skills and experience for a job; they're just making sure they have the staffing numbers right on paper. Many places push newbies to get off orientation before they are ready because their staffing grid needs a name with letters RN behind it.

    Just thoughts!
  8. by   karenchad
    Very good thoughts- all the above, the problem first lies in the schools of nursing- need to go back to my day of 1980- learning bedside nursing and forcing nursing students to take it seriously, back to the OLD basics and doing it until you got it right( I work on a HEAVY cardiac MED/Surg tele floor the students had to be yanked off their med pass experience because they were not prepared) but them the problem of too few nursing instructors/ poor pay for RN's who have earned MSN's not to mention their experience. the value what a nurse does and the education needs to be preached to the public and especially lawmakers who control these grants and funding( I had a nasty female divorce attorney say to me-"Isn't it nice that some one with so little education can make that kind of money") I remember a book 'back in the day' called NURSE the opening line of the book was "DOCTORS DON'T KEEP YOU ALIVE- I DO!) when those of us who have been walking those halls and hospitals for any lenght of time think about that statement and what we do in a shift - IT'S TRUE. Then there is problem of orientating a new grad, hospitals say it cost about $60,000 to orient a new grad- if they cut some major salaries and restructor the ADMINISTRATION fiscal waste(assistants to assistance, director over each unit director- why does there have to be a unit director for each unit with a charge nurse and a unit manager in this one northern NJ hosptial and a VP of Nsg over the big director, OMG -waste, waste,waste) they might just have enough money to give a decent orientation to some new grads and then maybe some of the experienced nurses would not leave form exhaustion/burnout and treat them with respect and value for their years of experience instead of chasing them off and throwing them out like old shoes. Nursing is a profession that we hand down--= experience to the young new grads.
  9. by   jjjoy
    Quote from karenchad
    I had a nasty female divorce attorney say to me-"Isn't it nice that some one with so little education can make that kind of money"
    Nursing still has that reputation, does it not? And is it not still marketed in many different arenas as such (on TV, by career counselors, etc)? "Just two years to $XXXXX RN salary!" Pre-reqs often add other year, but discounting waitlists & impacted courses, for someone with a HS degree, it really could be "just" 2-3 years from start to finish. Many other professional programs DO require at least a bachelor's degree (counseling, social work, physical therapy, etc). Not requiring a bachelor's degree first shaves off at least 3-4 years to obtaining a professional degree.

    And in the past, new grads would have no problem getting a hospital job that paid better from day 1 than most other 2-3 year career programs that *don't* require a bachelor's degree. And there certainly have been many examples of nurses with "just" 2-3 years of formal education demanding quite high wages because over time they were able to build a specialized skill set that's in demand.

    In addition to the relatively short time frame of formal training, nursing also still has the reputation of being a good option for those without a strong academic background. MD, PT, Pharmacy... those get crossed off the list pretty quickly for those who struggle with algebra and intro to chem. I'm by no means saying that all nursing students don't have a strong academic background. But many RN schools do not *require* courses like calculus, physics w/lab, o chem w/lab. Some do, yours may have, but many do not. Many nursing schools even have lottery systems to ensure that even those students who only meet the minimum requirements have a chance as long as they completed the pre-req coursework. Which I'm okay with because I think many great potential nurses may not have straight A's.

    I am NOT saying that nursing school is easy. No way, no how. And the competition for many programs these days has made getting INTO nursing school very difficult as well, with everyone fighting for top grades. I'm just saying that there is a basis for the perception from the outside that nursing allows one to earn a good wage in a relatively short time in regards to time spent in school (not on waiting lists).
    Last edit by jjjoy on Jun 30, '09
  10. by   EwwThat'sNasty
    To solve the impending nursing shortage (there are shortages now only in certain areas now such as ICU/ED/OR, etc) that is soon to materialize due to nurses leaving over-stressing, unrespected, and over demanding positions that lead to either burn-out, or death by driving off the road caused by falling asleep after being forced to do reverse rotating shifts is this:

    Massively increase the number of nursing students so there is an amazing amount of desperate job-seekers and then they can be burnt out in a year or two, and there will still be hot bodies to replace them.

    Decrease the pay far below what a fireperson or law enforcement official or garbage collector might make; instead use the saved money to create more training for new "hot bodies." Or better yet, turn all new hires into Contract workers with no benefits. Again the money saved can be used to create an ever larger body of desperate job seekers.

    Massively increase the number of imported foreign workers as even our lowest wages seem amazingly high to them. But be careful for given the opportunity they will become ICU/ED/ER and "in demand" nurses and will then command high wages, but then maybe we can make them all contract workers anyway, they won't complain regardless of work conditions for fear of being terminated and sent back home. As a rule imported foreign workers are very young, they don't feel bad if they have no medical insurance, so they won't miss it, and life here is so much better than in their country so poor working conditions simply don't seem "that bad."

    Sorry Teresag if I sound bitter, but I am. I lost my last job to a foreign worker who was willing to work for less money. My medical insurance was trashed on December 31st; along with my dental insurance; along with a low cost/low company maintenance of a medical savings account, which is really sad because I cannot even pre-pay for the BCC surgery that I just found I now need with pre-tax dollars.

    In my opinion there is not a shortage of nurses right now, there is a glut of entry level nurses; but with the economic crash, and the resulting washout I feel that the work environment will become more and more detrimental to nurses. Only two two years ago I encouraged and assisted friends and associates to become nurses. Today, sadly, I suggest other alternatives.
  11. by   Valerie Salva
    Quote from grahajas
    $50 million outlay for the National Endowment for the Arts
    $246 million tax break for Hollywood movie producers to buy motion picture film.
    $600 million to buy hybrid vehicles for federal employees.
    $150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities.
    $1.2 billion for "youth activities,"

    The list could go on I even saw something about saving toads.

    Instead your tax dollars will be spent on this soon to be Homeless Veteran who blew his GI bill on a sorority that will never be apart of the fraternity unless they start to act like one. How many doctors are out of there profession in 2 years?
    I don't think we should have paid for any of that either- what I am most against is bailing out the banks and the auto industry.
  12. by   nursenow
    Quote from stim3jt
    I have to agree What Nursing Shortage??????????????? The nursing schools are flooded by men and women because the TV glorifies nursing and says how good the money is. They fail to tell the policies to understaff and I know I feel underpaid for what I do. I don't know what you all think. We might only be in demand for advanced degrees. I personally think that Dental Hygenists are in a better situation as to working straight days, may have to give up a Saturday or two but NEVER a holiday. I also think Physical Therapists and Speech Therapists are in more of a demand, they also do not work many Saturdays or any holidays.
    In the area I live(Northern Calif), one of the LTC/SNF facilities has stopped hiring LVNs. They now only hire RNs and pay them the same wages they were paying new hire LVNs. There are so many new grads looking for work that the facility has no problem getting RNs to work for them at the lower pay scale. I suspect the other facilities in the area will eventually follow their example. And people are talking about a nursing shortage!?
  13. by   karenchad
    I can't imagine any nursing program that doesn't require H.S pre-req's of biology and chem each w/lab ,4 years of math- including algebra, calculus, geometry, trig and a foreign language. call me old -I graduated HS in 1974 and and graduated from a 2 year diploma program in 1980, if you did not have those HIGH SCHOOL courses - FORGET IT. Maybe this is where the nursuing fiasko starts!!! How does one expect to understand what the lab results mean on a patient and how that would relate to pathophysiology and pharmacology, and clinical science. How does one expect to understand nursing process- scientific method. How can any one expect to even begin to under stand their job if they don't know what these basics are. The next problem is with these so called NCLEX exams- need to go back to the old 2-day sessions of fill in the dot questions of the old state board test pool exams- those questions actually tested what you learned- none of this shut off the computer when one reaches 74? passing grade. Nursing needs to be revamped from bottom to top--starting with the entrance requirements all the way up to nursing admistration's responsibilities (specifically how to have control over our profession- not moron lawyers with political science BA's or MBA's that need to go work at corporations like MACY's- High priced papers and spin-doctors; Nursing needs control over laws regulation patient safety issues and NURSING policy and proceedures- stop this magnet crap-feeble attempts at trying to look busy and wasting LOTS of money-$60,000 on upward sepending on the size of the facility. Nursing needs to fight hard and long in Washington to correct healthcare flaws- OBAMA is just another lawyer/politician. he is not a nurse!!! Nursing needs to come down hard on all this exclusion/abuusive behavior amongst it's own on the nursing units themselves- back in the day this was rampant- the eating their young philosopy- when is nursing going to GROW-UP!!!??? There is quite afew sadistic nurse managers/administrators/ LTC administrators and DON's that need to be gotton rid of permentantly and NEVER to work in or around a Nursing facility again- Full license removal with state board diciplinary action!!!

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