Pope declares feeding tubes a 'moral obligation' - page 4
From: USA Today, April 2, 2004 Pope John Paul II has announced emphatically that it is "morally obligatory" to continue artificial feeding and hydration for people in a persistent vegetative... Read More
Apr 8, '04Occupation: RN Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 492; Likes: 93Quote from AgnusYou are absoloutly wrong on Papal infallibility. Papal infallibility is only in effect when the Pope issues an extraordinary Magisterium. The last Pope to do so was Pope Pius XII in 1950 on the assumption of Mary.As for papal infallability the declarations reads that the Papacy is infalliable in matterss of faith
Did you ever consider where this declaration came from? It does not come from scripture.
It comes from the papacy it self. So this is how it goes the pope says that God has declaired the pope is infalliable in decisions concering matters of faith. We know this is so because the pope says it is so.
He gets his athority from God. We know this to be true because he says it is so. God declaired it and he told us God declaird it. Anybody see anyting just a little screwy with this?
Apr 8, '04Specialty: Getting gingerale ; From: US ; Joined: Mar '04; Posts: 6,243; Likes: 1,421Quote from rnmedic1977that was excellent info to put up! this is very similar to hospice/oncology teaching.benefits of not using artificial methods
potential benefits of not using tube feedings and iv's
effect on bodybenefitless fluid in the lungseasier to breatheless fluid in the throat less need for suctioning less pressure on tumors less pain less frequent urination sheets can be changed less frequently less risk of skin breakdown and bedsores increase in the body's natural pain-relieving hormones increased comfort and less pain
adapted from the handbook for mortals: guidance for people facing serious illness, by joanne lynn and joan harrold, copyright by joanne lynn, used by
permission of oxford university press.
the "handbook for mortals" is excellent, it is great for anybody facing serious illness, or caring for someone with a serious illness. i thought this info on dehydration would benefit this thread.
Apr 8, '04Occupation: part time sales Joined: Nov '01; Posts: 19Quote from AgnusSpeaking of election It was no accident that the first non roman pope in modern times was polish and elected into office at a time when the Polish revolt took place.
It is politics my dear friends plain and simple. The Roman Empire Lives today. though the Papacy. Rome exerts very strong influence in world government. There is nothing in original christian movement that even supports the existance of the papacy.
Infact the Papcy did not come into existance until very much later. It is modeled very carefully on the Roman empiracal government.
how about in the New Testament:"--- Thou art Peter and upon this Rock I will build my Church" .
Apr 10, '04Occupation: Management, business owner Joined: Dec '03; Posts: 190; Likes: 18Jen, you are out of touch and using outdated information when you suggest that witholding food is "starving" a patient.
In someone who is in the last stages of life, feeding is done more for the comfort of the family than for need of the patient. Feeding, whether it is done by coercing the patient to eat or by tube feeding can end up causing MORE discomfort to the patient. The gut shuts down as death gets closer and digestion and peristalsis occurs very slowly, if at all. Feeding someone with little gut function only works to cause abdominal distension, painful gas and issues with constipation. Without excessive food and fluids, secretions decrease and patientsrest more easily.
Paliative care should be about COMFORTING THE PATIENT, not about keeping relatives happy.
Apr 18, '04Occupation: temp.disabled LPN due 2 MVA Joined: Feb '04; Posts: 29[HI,
Well, I'm sure proud mr. John Paul has recieved the divine right to play God on that one.isnt it humans who learned and devised a way to prolong death not life in such a manner? I agree with it for a period, but not for life, and not for death.
Apr 21, '04Occupation: RN... Specialty: 30 year(s) of experience ; Joined: Apr '04; Posts: 169; Likes: 17i think the pope needs to stick to BINGO and let this be a personal decision based on patient and family wishes, beliefs. Let him spend some time in a nursing home (as a patient... he obvioiusly could use a hand afterall) and then make his decision. Not too many of the residents will be able to bow, kiss his ring, hail his praises. Like another poster said... he's just a man.
Apr 22, '04Joined: Nov '02; Posts: 6,056; Likes: 9,192AMEN Nitengale. Let the pope stick to being the pope and leave the rest to someone else. Maybe he's worried that when he needs a tube someone won't think it's a good idea. It should be a personal decision based on one's own wishes.
Apr 22, '04Joined: Apr '02; Posts: 38,756; Likes: 16,285What if my patient or I are not Catholic? What say he then?
Apr 23, '04Occupation: staff nurse cardiac step-down, neurosurg step-down Joined: Sep '02; Posts: 86; Likes: 1I have always considered myself a conservative Catholic and this just confuses me. It would seem this position is a direct confrontation to the physiology of dying. Reflecting on the Catholic value of suffering, I can understand if the patient wanted to take on this cross. But I have never heard of the Church imposing it on its' faithful; its' inherent value would be lost if the person doesn't accept it with love. I need to look into this. Thanks for the post. I work in a Catholic hospital that has always remained true to the Church. This certainly opens a can of worms.
Apr 29, '04Occupation: Credentialed Mental Health Nurse/Therapist Specialty: Mental Health ; From: AU ; Joined: Apr '04; Posts: 21; Likes: 5Well, is this an infallable statement or just his opinion, I dont think this a papel bull.
Due to the popes current state of health I wonder if he has the capacity to make such pronouncements.
this feeding tube decision should be for the person and family/loved ones to make, not the papacy.
Quote from CNM2BI guesson what one man thinks. I mean, really, that's all the Pope is is a man.
It's not like God is saying "make sure you use feeding tubes on everyone". OIY!
Apr 30, '04Occupation: part time sales Joined: Nov '01; Posts: 19Quote from wjf00thank you.....some of the posts show that his words and His Words are often misunderstood by many.You are absoloutly wrong on Papal infallibility. Papal infallibility is only in effect when the Pope issues an extraordinary Magisterium. The last Pope to do so was Pope Pius XII in 1950 on the assumption of Mary.Last edit by jenreg123 on Apr 30, '04
May 1, '04Joined: Apr '04; Posts: 30I understand the physiological implications of feeding a dying patient (for example someone with terminal cancer) via a feeding tube but....are all vegetative patients dying ............becuase without nurishment they sure will eventually.
The pope raises an interesting point......is nutrition basic care and if so therefore a basic human right?
I read the article and no where did I read that the pope encourages going over people's advanced directives and putting in feeding tubes when the patient states in their directive against such a thing.
I think this statement could be viewed with a little less focus on the catholic church in itself and more on the point the pope raised. maybe advanced directives need to be more specific.
As for the whole birth control thing here's the scoop ..... take the pill for example, it's not 100% effective and it works by three mechanisms...preventing ovulation, preventing implantation, and thickening vaginal secretions .. if conception does occurs via failure to prevent ovulation and failure to stop sperm from migrating up vagina.....an abortion could occur through the third mechanism via preventing implantation ... so you still don't get pregnant even though you've ovulated...hence you still could get pregnant on the pill if mechanism three fails.
all practising christians that I know of Protestant and catholic alike do not agree with abortion as per the BiBle. That's the pill thing. Condoms I haven't figures out .... unless it breaks and you voluntarily go for a therapuetic abortion.
May 2, '04Occupation: LTC Nurse Joined: May '04; Posts: 1http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/20040402/6075622s.htm[/QUOTE]
Any time you throw the Church (as in Catholic) into a medical discussion--it takes off like a rocket. People react to what happened to them at the hands of Sister Agnes or Father Ivan, or to a divorce or unhappy childhood. They lose total objectivity.
The USA article states:
"The pope, in remarks last week that were released in English on Thursday, declared such support ''basic care'' and ''not a medical act.'' He called removal ''euthanasia by omission.''"
What were the context of the rest of his remarks? Were his remarks taken out of context? Is the writer of the article reading into the Pope's remarks? Were the quotes given taken out of context? Interesting questions to investigate.
One of the Pope's job discriptions is to teach. Teaching is what infalibility is about. If you want to better understand his teachings, read them, using a Bible, a Catholic Catechism, a good Catholic Encyclopedia. For a short cut study, buy Catholicism for Dummies, written by a couple of guys who are also good teachers.
As to the tube business.
We have helped to mislead the public into believing they can live forever-and that they should want to! We have helped to make death unnatural.
Tubes have their places, and sometimes, patients and families need the extra time they give them to get to the next level of acceptance.
My job discription as a nurse includes taking care of my patients the best that I can. Not to make their decisions for them or be judgemental of the options they have chosen.Last edit by nanniebee on May 2, '04 : Reason: shorten post