Napa Valley nursing students draw crowd as they protest use of ATI exam - page 10
nvc nursing students draw crowd as they protest mandatory exam napa valley register - napa,ca,usa about 100 napa valley college nursing students filled the college board room thursday night in... Read More
Dec 8, '06Joined: Apr '05; Posts: 58JefferyRN
Raising the bar is a great idea, I support that tremendously.
Unfortunately, if you want to raise the bar, it has to go both ways. I would of have loved to have higher standard education and faculty but I did not. :angryfire
We completed the program, and did not pass HESI, the teacher remediated us and stated we all passed. Took HESI again, and 90%, yes 90% of us failed. Now No Degree. Nothing. No taking NCLEX RN either. :angryfire
So we did not have higher standards teachers, that is all to it
Raising the bar means to me, that you start the program with Higher Standards and you continue to teach with higher standards. What do I exactly mean? Well, if they are going to implement these standarized exams which are practice exams by the way, students should of taken the exams to it fullest. The testing companies such as HESI has the: Entrance Exam, than the specialized exams, than the Exit Exams. Why just use the Exit exam, than to use if after you have successfully completed the progam is unjust and immoral. Why would you not want to Nip in the Bud?? That is more business savy way of thinking. Not only that, since instructors admit they are not familiar with ATI or HESI style questions. Therefore, they should be oriented to it. How can you teach it, if you don't know it.
Unfortunately, the teachers at NVC and other colleges out there, knowingly miss used the ATI or HESI exams. What kind of teachers would show their students that it is okay not to comply with procedures? Therefore, if teachers are not complying with the criteria of the exams, why should the students?
As far as BSN degrees, you do realize 85% of time that RNs' that complete their BSN degrees are interested only in managerial/administrative positions. Desk jobs, is another word for it. I would love to see BSN nurses work on a med/surg unit taking care of 6 completes. Rare.
I like to say it this way, some nurses like to be Chiefs and others Indians, no matter what, you must be able to work in the pack if you want to survive.
ASN or BSN titles never impressed me, I have been in the field for almost twenty years, that excludes the candy stripe days. I assess you as a whole, any good nurse knows that.
That is like saying I will measure your success by how much money you make, how big your house is, and what kind of car you have. I have many MDs friends, therefore, I know what money does not buy.
Work ethics is something that can never be taught by any college. That is first and most important. Than trust, team player, passionate, = Respect
Not BSN, MSN, Phd, MD or $$$$$$$$$$$$$
Dec 8, '06Occupation: RN Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 4,389; Likes: 153I hate the way every thread gets hijacked into the stupid BSN argument. There is no money in the state budget to turn the 70 or so California ADN programs into BSN programs.
Totally impractical, end of story. And I say this as an ADN grad who will be getting her BSN.
As always, the BSN argument has nothing to do with the issue on this thread. Give it a rest.
Dec 8, '06Occupation: RN Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 4,389; Likes: 153This study talks about why schools started using HESI. In the '90s the NCLEX pass rate nationwide dropped from 90 to 83 percent.
NursingCenter - Library - Journal Issue - Article
Once schools started implementing HESI as part of the progression criteria, this study found that NCLEX pass rates improved anywhere from 9 to 41 percent.
The findings of this study appear to indicate that implementing a progression policy based on (exit exam) scores was an effective method of increasing NCLEX-RN pass rates.
The study also found that providing additional instruction wasn't enough. Basically, the students didn't study for the exit exams if it didn't make any difference in their progression through the program.
The only way HESI helped NCLEX pass rates is if the school required minimum scores as progression criteria.
Progression alone was significant enough to motivate students to study so that eventually they reached a level of preparation that enabled them to pass the licensing exam.
Since this particular school's pass rate has been really low for the last five years, my guess is that's why they were, like many schools, using exit exams as criteria to graduate.
And, it may also explain why they toughened up on the criteria because, it does help NCLEX pass rates.
:typingLast edit by Sheri257 on Dec 8, '06
Dec 8, '06Occupation: RN Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 4,389; Likes: 153Quote from ewattsjtyeah but, what everyone also seems to be forgetting is that just a year ago ... this school's nclex pass rate was 69 percent. and the year before that, the pass rate was 70 percent. so maybe these students' b averages don't mean much as far as nclex preparation is concerned.what everyone seems to keep forgetting is that these students had "b" averages!!!!! the test scores indicated that they were not in the top 50% in the nation. that is what they were failed for.
no matter how high the standards are set, there will still be a top 50% and a lower 50%.
going by the standard of this school, 1/2 of all nurses in the nation should have been failed and not allowed to practice.
a high standard and what this school did are two different things.
once a school falls below 70 percent, they get in big trouble with the brn. when the pass rate falls below 70 percent for two years in a row, the brn suspends their accreditation. obviously, they were in real danger here.
now maybe they went too far to the other extreme because they were in a desperate situation with the board but, there's substantial evidence that these exit exams do improve nclex pass rates (see previous post).
if you notice, the school's pass rate bumped up substantially this year to 86 percent ... and maybe it was because they did toughen up on these exit exam requirements. that was the highest pass rate they'd had in five years. the best they ever did before that was 77 percent.
if the school doesn't require minimum scores on these exit exams ... the students don't study for them. it's like anything else: if the exam doesn't really count for anything, people won't study.
so, maybe they had to go with the 50 percent minimum score to avoid losing their accreditation all together. because if they had lost accreditation, a lot more students would have been hurt than just these two.
:typingLast edit by Sheri257 on Dec 8, '06
Dec 8, '06Occupation: RN, ER Case management, precertification. Specialty: ICU-Stepdown ; Joined: Dec '02; Posts: 862; Likes: 53Well, that IS logical, like it or not. But we should also considder that these extreme measures tell us that the school is not teaching as well as it should -and it should look to itself (faculty, methods, etc) for that one. No excuse to have a lot of otherwise passing students (does a 'b' really mean what it used to? ) who couldnt pass their exit. I know that if I did well throughout the program, and then was told that I was not going to pass (get my degree) because of one exam that is used to weed out the "unlikely to pass NCLEX" I'd sure as hell want to know "why?". College is expen$ive -in time AND money. If they thought I had earned a B (which is supposed to be a pretty decent grade) I'd want to know why I wasn't going to be considdered 'passing' when the chips were down. After all, the problem should have been detected and corrected well before the end of the program. Isn't that what mid-terms are all about? If they have a major problem (not just two students) then they need to re-evaluate their grading standards -because they are too low. If its NOT a major problem, then its a standard to be expected (there will always be those who will not pass no matter what).
I don't agree with standards that compare against a nation of passing grades -this would inevitably raise the bar to where few could pass. Standards should be based against the test itself (which is what adaptive tests like the NCLEX does -and then the Boards of Nursing decide on how hard the test has to be to pass. Not all states require the same degree of difficulty to pass the boards test.
Dec 8, '06Occupation: RN Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 4,389; Likes: 153Quote from GromitI don't think there's any question that with the very low NCLEX pass rate, there's problems with teaching in this program. But, if you notice from the above mentioned study, NCLEX pass rates were falling nationwide just a few years ago.Well, that IS logical, like it or not. But we should also considder that these extreme measures tell us that the school is not teaching as well as it should -and it should look to itself (faculty, methods, etc) for that one. No excuse to have a lot of otherwise passing students (does a 'b' really mean what it used to? ) who couldnt pass their exit.
Were all of the programs failing in their teaching? Or were the students also failing in their studying?
Exit exams were one way to turn this around. While we still haven't gotten back up to the 90 percent pass rate in the '90s, the nationwide pass rate has increased from 83 to 87 percent with the use of these exit exams.
My guess is that the problem is: students tend to forget the material after they are tested on it. I know I do, especially if it was taught two years ago.
Exit exams are one way to ensure that students keep studying the material they were taught during the whole program. And, apparently, they do boost NCLEX pass rates, which ultimately does benefit the students as well.
:typingLast edit by Sheri257 on Dec 8, '06
Dec 8, '06Occupation: RN, ER Case management, precertification. Specialty: ICU-Stepdown ; Joined: Dec '02; Posts: 862; Likes: 53Well, no doubt that students get rusty on what they haven't been exposed to in a while (who doesn't? ) and the tests should help keep them prepared. I'm not entirely certain however that the nclex pass rates boost because of this test, isn't a bit artificial. Don't know. Few things mimic the NCLEX very well. I was an A-B student and didn't pass the NCLEX the first time around (though on my second attempt, I passed it with the minimum required 75 questions -whereas when I failed to pass it, it was with 1 question short of the maximum. I certainly knew my material, though. My teachers did not GIVE out passing grades -you earned every inch. The ones who washed-out in our class, did so pretty early into the program. Out of the rest of the class, all but a small handfull didn't pass the first time, and those passed the second time.
I don't have an easy answer -but I'm certainly glad that I don't have to worry about such things NOW. When I meet a newly minted graduate who fails the nclex, I do my best to reassure them that they are NOT alone, and point them in the direction of the book I considder to be one of the very best available: (Saunders' Comprehensive Review for NCLEX RN) . I have yet to meet anyone who has actually read this book, taken its' tests, and failed the NCLEX. Can't think of any higher praise for a book -and as I know firsthand, failing the boards is a purely devestating moment. Passing it afterward is pure bliss. I could do no wrong. I was so excited I took a few days off from work and had a grand old time (grin).
It does bother me, however, that these graduates run the risk of not getting the chance to take the test because of a diagnostic exam. As far as I'm concerned, its unfair to let someone PASS THE COURSE, but refuse to let them take the boards. If they weren't good enough to attempt the NCLEX, then they should not have allowed them to pass their courses. To do this, is to cheat these students out of their money and their time.
Dec 8, '06Joined: Aug '05; Posts: 228; Likes: 17Quote from gromitno kidding!! the standard is the nclex to be licensed, not ati, not hesi, etc, etc.as far as i'm concerned, its unfair to let someone pass the course, but refuse to let them take the boards. if they weren't good enough to attempt the nclex, then they should not have allowed them to pass their courses. to do this, is to cheat these students out of their money and their time.
it is the state bons that are pressuring programs to have a certain pass rates on the nclex or they can lose their accreditation. (70% in california)
napa's program was in this situation and thus this ill-advised application of the ati.
this program should have looked at their teaching methods and not put the onus on the students imo.
Dec 8, '06Occupation: RN, ER Case management, precertification. Specialty: ICU-Stepdown ; Joined: Dec '02; Posts: 862; Likes: 53looks like we are on the same wave here. I mean overall, I'd rather see the student not pass the class, than to pass and be told 'oh, so sorry, but you can't sit for the boards -but hey, thanks for taking the classes!'. Of course when we boil through the fat, we also have to acknowledge that we are getting only one side of this entire story (the story that started the thread) and as we all know, there is always more to it than one side (which would be told in such a way as to favor the ones filing the complaint).
Dec 8, '06Occupation: RN Joined: Nov '03; Posts: 4,389; Likes: 153Quote from Gromitlooks like we are on the same wave here. I mean overall, I'd rather see the student not pass the class, than to pass and be told 'oh, so sorry, but you can't sit for the boards -but hey, thanks for taking the classes!'. Of course when we boil through the fat, we also have to acknowledge that we are getting only one side of this entire story (the story that started the thread) and as we all know, there is always more to it than one side (which would be told in such a way as to favor the ones filing the complaint).
I think it's important to remember that not all schools wait until the final semester to give these exit exams. Some schools require students to pass the exit exams before the students can go on to the next semester. Maybe that's a more fair way to do it instead of waiting 'til the end.
In my program, we've been taking these exit exams all along. But it didn't count for anything until the end because, with the previous exams, the teachers were using it mostly to evaluate whether their teaching as effective or not.
Maybe these exams should have counted all along but we were, at least, getting exposure to these tests throughout the program.
:typingLast edit by Sheri257 on Dec 8, '06
Dec 8, '06Occupation: waitress/cna Joined: Dec '06; Posts: 9That is the craziest thing I've ever heard of.I'm glad that they have done this though, maybe it will open some doors for people that have been put in the same boat as them or it will open the eyes of some school officials who make the criteria for the schools.
Dec 8, '06Joined: Apr '05; Posts: 58True
There is no arguiing that HESI has a good probability in predicting the students' success in passing the NCLEX-RN examination.
Also, HESI in the pass, stated they had a 99% predictibility. This year it went down to 97%.
But and its a big butt ...... the real True argument is, it is being used in a punitive way. For colleges to use it in a vindictive way is the lreal issue here.
No one is arguiing about not wanting to take the exams, but to use it at the end and in a punitive manner, after completing the program is really unjust. It shows the true reputation of the school and its program.
Any good nurse knows that exams are good for you. Exams are given even after you become an RN. Exams are given when you apply for a job.
Students want to take the "Standarized Practice Exams" but without penalty.
Remediations are great, students want that too, without penalty.
If colleges truly care about teaching, they should of given these exams at the beginning, middle and end. Why the half asssssssssss job?
Students are asking for help from their instructors and are not giving it.
Again, the True Issue Is:
HESI is a "Standarized Comprehensive Practice Exam to determine the probability of students readiness of the NCLEX RN Examination." "To determine their areas of weakness so that faculty and student can prepare a remediation class before taking the NCLEX RN." "To familiarize the students in a computer style test taking like the NCLEX RN Exam and able to learn to decrease students' anxiety prior to the NCLEX RN Exam." "it is not to be punitive for the nursing students."
Above comments came from the creator of The HESI Test.. Dr. Morrison and/or the newly purchase HESI company "Evolve"
Evolve now has remediation tactics to assist the students. What happened to the others who are no longer allowed to take HESI??? They Do Not have the opportunity to use the Newly Evolve Exams. :angryfire
The Higher Learning Education and State Board of Nursing should investigate the colleges' retention, graduation, and NCLEX stats, not just NCLEX. To determine accrediation. :spin:
Dec 8, '06Occupation: Hospital Education Coordinator and adjunct nursing faculty From: US ; Joined: Jun '06; Posts: 7,376; Likes: 7,102Sounds like blaming behavior to me. However, many schools use similar tests to help the student gauge their success. That way the student does not have a gripe coming when they flunk NCLEX.
Also, the schools are monitored as to how many graduates DO pass NCLEX. One way to keep that score high is to test periodically and encourage the lower scoring students to a) study harder or b) change majors or c) drop out. That way the graduates who are left should be successful. Either way, it would not have happened if the students had passed the test. Sorta sounds like they are blaming someone else for their own behavior.