Job Satisfaction Declining for Nurses, Survey Says - page 3

Job Satisfaction Declining for Nurses, Survey Says (SAN DIEGO) -- Job satisfaction appears to be on the decline in the nursing field. A survey conducted by AMN Healthcare, a provider of... Read More

  1. by   MadpeysRN
    when i graduate, i will have the tools necessary to treat the patient as a whole, and have practice doing all things you say. adn's and diploma's hit the ground running, yes we are told that, but will quickly be passed by bsn educated student's. (perhaps this is were the chips come into play) i have not read anything on hospitals rather hiring adn's ove bsn students-in fact i have read the opposite. i also understand not everyone has the times or the means for a bsn. nursing should not be a trade, not with the level of responsibility and accountability that comes with it. having so many different routes to rn, will hamper the profession. and it will become just be like any other job where you make 25-30k from all the programs churning out students. which is why job dissatisfaction is down-hospitals have their pick of the litter.

    "if there was a nursing organization that was able to get both rns and lvns to get the chips off their shoulders" that would be great if they had more success getting rn's to sign up than the ana.
    i can only speak for myself, i am not even an rn, but i don't have a chip. i will not have a chip. perhaps those that have the chips are those being educated to hit the ground running. we are certainly taught-and it's drilled-that communication and collaberation is key with various healthcare staff no matter their level of ranf for lack of better words. so atleast those in my cohart, and those before me that are coming from my school-will not have "chips". or atleast have been educated not to.
    i am just mearly speaking my opinion. i know it will be totally different in the real world. my whole argument is that nursing is a professional occupation, and should be treated as such-and it will not be as long as it is not viewed as a professional occupation. is should not be on the same level as dental assisting for example, which is what it will become. where you can go to a fly by night business that isn't even a school-renting a dental office, get trained and get a job the next day. (which i have done-so they do exist)
    trades do no come with the degree of responsibility that nurses have.
    everyone is entitled to disagree.
    cheers
  2. by   DoGoodThenGo
    Quote from TheCommuter
    Yes, increasing professionalism in nursing is ANA's most likely target. However, it is my opinion that nursing is very much a hands-on trade and an educated profession rolled into one package.

    I feel that nursing suffered a major blow with the phasing-out of the 3-year diploma RNs. This was the way that the majority of nurses were educated in previous generations, and these RNs could hit the ground running as brand new grads in any healthcare setting with minimal orientation (or none at all) due to their very high proportion of hands-on clinical hours.

    Nursing education moved away from a practical hospital-based model to a more theoretical college-based model, and as a result, entire regions of the U.S. are filled with new grads who can quickly formulate care plans and regurgitate the theories of Jean Watson and Callista Roy, but have never inserted a Foley catheter, started a peripheral IV, applied a colostomy bag, dropped a NG tube, or located pedal pulses. Many facilities no longer want to incur the massive expense of training these unskilled new grads, and I really do not blame them. Most, if not all, of these skills should have been learned in school.

    Bedside nursing is a trade and a profession rolled into one. A new 'professional registered nurse' who knows all about theories, care planning, and answering NCLEX-style questions is ineffectual at the bedside without the hands-on 'skills of the trade' that are needed in everyday practice.
    Leaving the old debate as to if nursing is a practical/technical profession or not, the closing of diploma programs had much more going on behind the scenes than just the ANA promoting BSN for mandatory entry.

    Nursing programs are expensive to run and many hospitals saw no need to incurr the expense once large numbers of community colleges began cranking out ADN/AAS grads. Yes, many required a bit longer orientation than diploma grads, but inititally the cost benefit ratios worked in favour of the hospital.

    Consider also potential nursing students preferred the community college model as at least they attended a school of higher education and had a degree versus merely a diploma in nursing. Though often not the case the former is perceived as having more value especially if one wishes one day to leave nursing and so forth.

    Then there simply was the fact for a hospital nursing program to offer the sort of education demanded by those hiring nurses (that is a more rounded general education), they have to find some way of awarding an associates degree. This often means teaming up with a four or two year college to give students access to classes from such nursing basics as A&P to English. Not sure, but IIRC aside from perhaps other nursing programs, diploma "classes" may not transfer easily as college credits.

    Finding a college to team up with isn't easy for a hospital nursing program, especially if it is affliated with a religous hospital such as RC. Church doctorine may call for certain or at least prefer certain classes to be taught in a different light from general students. Then there is the fact that the scheme must be paid for. No college is going to reserve space for out of system students out of the kindness of their hearts. Instructors, professors, and so forth have to be paid, classrooms heated, lighted, cleaned and so forth.

    Remember speaking with a woman who worked at the College of Mount Saint Vincent's nursing program and asked if they were affliated with the now closed St. Vinny's program in The Village. Her response was "no", they weren't and that while it was a shame such a great school closed it did so because local hospitals preferred college educated nurses.
  3. by   TheCommuter
    Quote from madpeys
    I have not read anything on hospitals rather hiring ADN's ove BSN students-in fact I have read the opposite.
    The new preference for BSN-educated new grads in hospitals is related to the currently sluggish economy. Since so many new nurses are being pumped into local job markets, the BSN degree is a new weed-out tool: an applicant might get weeded out without one. It reduces the number of people that HR must interview for those few available job openings.

    In addition, why hire a new ADN with no experience when the hospital has a flood of new BSNs who are willing to work for a slightly lower pay rate than in previous years? It saves the hospital money in reduced wages, and a higher proportion of BSN-educated nurses looks good on paper when marketing the facility to the public.

    I will reaffirm that bedside nursing is a hands-on trade and an educated profession rolled into one neat package. Some people frown down upon manual labor in society, but the typical bedside nurse busts his/her butt every shift completing routinized manual tasks. It is what it is. A good bedside nurse must be smart, capable, intellectual, and formally educated, but he/she will not survive without those routine hands-on skills.
  4. by   MadpeysRN
    Quote from TheCommuter
    The new preference for BSN-educated new grads in hospitals is related to the currently sluggish economy. Since so many new nurses are being pumped into local job markets, the BSN degree is a new weed-out tool: an applicant might get weeded out without one. It reduces the number of people that HR must interview for those few available job openings.

    In addition, why hire a new ADN with no experience when the hospital has a flood of new BSNs who are willing to work for a slightly lower pay rate than in previous years? It saves the hospital money in reduced wages, and a higher proportion of BSN-educated nurses looks good on paper when marketing the facility to the public.

    I will reaffirm that bedside nursing is a hands-on trade and an educated profession rolled into one neat package. Some people frown down upon manual labor in society, but the typical bedside nurse busts his/her butt every shift completing routinized manual tasks. It is what it is. A good bedside nurse must be smart, capable, intellectual, and formally educated, but he/she will not survive without those routine hands-on skills.
    Sounds good to me-i agree with that.
    I still think nursing doesnt stand a chance in **** unless everyone views it as a profession. Everyone including society and most importantly employers. You cannot be a profession with so many different levels of entry period. As long as nursing is not viewed as a professional occupation-job satisfaction will be down(the intention of my originial comment).
    I am not going to debate with you-you clearly know more than me and have more experience. I welcome your ideas and value your opinion as well-but I also think that as long as veteran nurses such as yourself have this view-it is partly the problem. Your stance is clearly pro diploma and ADN programs which is fine. Mine is clearly BSN.
    Cheers
  5. by   TheCommuter
    Quote from madpeys
    I am not going to debate with you-you clearly know more than me and have more experience. I welcome your ideas and value your opinion as well-but I also think that as long as veteran nurses such as yourself have this view-it is partly the problem. Your stance is clearly pro diploma and ADN programs which is fine. Mine is clearly BSN.
    Cheers
    I am not a veteran by any stretch of the imagination. My mere five years of nursing experience does not exactly qualify me to be a veteran. In addition, we are exactly the same age.
  6. by   MadpeysRN
    "I am not a veteran by any stretch of the imagination. My mere five years of nursing experience does not exactly qualify me to be a veteran. In addition, we are exactly the same age. "

    Well, here's some useless BSN theory for ya....according to Benner you are a proficient practitioner-lol. I am merely a stage 1 novice!

    However, hopefully we learned from each other. And I am 31-I don't like like to talk about it.
  7. by   tewdles
    Just me repeating my tired old mantra that the evidence does not support the notion that a BSN is required to practice safe, effective, professional nursing in a wide variety (most?) of specialties and settings. Does more education enhance us as professionals? Certainly. Does it require a BSN to practice bedside in your hospital, facility, or specialty unit?

    Today many employers are seeking to hire a BSN only staff, because they can AND because at least one study has suggested that pt outcomes improve as the ratio of BSN to ADN increases.

    The sad truth for nurses is that in the current market employers may require the degree without offering the salary increase or professional benefit that one might expect.
  8. by   eriksoln
    Quote from tewdles
    just me repeating my tired old mantra that the evidence does not support the notion that a bsn is required to practice safe, effective, professional nursing in a wide variety (most?) of specialties and settings. does more education enhance us as professionals? certainly. does it require a bsn to practice bedside in your hospital, facility, or specialty unit?

    today many employers are seeking to hire a bsn only staff, because they can and because at least one study has suggested that pt outcomes improve as the ratio of bsn to adn increases.

    the sad truth for nurses is that in the current market employers may require the degree without offering the salary increase or professional benefit that one might expect.
    they want bsns because they look better in publications, not because they are better. since the only thing having your bsn does for the facility is allow them to boast "we have "x" percentage bsns", exactly what you said is true: you are paid as an adn and you get treated like an adn. why..............you are an adn.

    i'm going for my bsn. i though long and hard about whether i wanted to or not. i joined in on a lot of adn vs. bsn threads, dove in head first, looking for something concrete that separates the two. i wanted something to hang my hat on, something to keep in the back of my head while i went back to school. never found it. i know why too.

    see, as i did earlier this thread, my question has always been "what does having your bsn do to help you with bedside nursing?" i would often, as i did here, expand it to "what do you do or understand, given the same patient and resources, that an adn does not? what happens differently for your patient, since you have a bsn?"

    as with this thread, i got no answers. most changed the subject very quickly, others tried very hard to talk with big words and complicate the issue........but it always came back to there being no real answer for the question. one nurse did tell me something i believe (to a degree), which is that it is somewhat "zen-ish" and can't really be put into words or explained, that it is like being told to describe what vanilla tastes like.

    i found my own answer, and am confident in it's truth. that answer being: at the bedside there is no difference. same outcomes, same pg scores, same understanding, same everything. the difference between a bsn and adn nurse presents itself away from the bedside. hence, my question is a trick question, since it only concerns bedside nursing (i knew that this time around, not before).

    adn nurses are taught more of the language about research, they are judged rigorously on their writing styles (apa must be learned), they are forced to take more of a community look during clinicals (i had to write a very large paper describing my nursing experiences otherwise i would have had to do clinicals.......ones that didn't involve hospital bedside nursing) and the mechanics of political nursing are introduced on a larger scale (contacting politicians about certain bills etc).

    in short, the adn is more prepared to do things off the clock and away from the bedside to help advance nursing as a profession.

    and, this is what brings us to why so many people believe there is no real difference. bsns are more prepared to "enter the conversation" regarding nursing being a profession. they are better prepared to take nursing leadership positions in which they can make a difference and be the voice of nursing. but................this is a huge but.............most don't. they perform the roles of an adn nurse, go to work, clock out and go back to their everyday life, all the while telling themselves they are better at it for some (very imagined) reason or another (often things the school told them, the same schools who tell people there are thousands of jobs in nursing). since their higher degree only grants them powers away from the bedside, and they don't use them..........the line between the two degrees is very thin and blurred. i have news for the bsn grads who think they offer anything at the bedside that adns don't. your kidding yourself. it's probably a form of denial, denial brought on by the fact that you know your education has gone to waste because you aren't doing anything extra away from the bedside..........just clock in and clock out and be done.

    as i said, i am going back to school for my bsn. why? because i think i am ready to take that extra step in my career, the part that has nothing to do with bedside care. i feel, while being a part of committees with my hospital, i need to make myself better heard. no one wants to hear what an adn thinks, but some people (admin. and higher ups) will take a bsn trained nurse into account. heck, right here on this very site i was called "a layman" in an article i wrote about how "customer service" kills healthcare. i imagine the point the person was making was that i am adn trained and hence "don't see the whole picture". i'm also planning on being more politically involved. too many things changing and being done these days to sit idle and hope for the best. but this stuff is all off the clock and away from the bedside. thats where my bsn can help me.
  9. by   MadpeysRN
    Quote from eriksoln
    they want bsns because they look better in publications, not because they are better. since the only thing having your bsn does for the facility is allow them to boast "we have "x" percentage bsns", exactly what you said is true: you are paid as an adn and you get treated like an adn. why..............you are an adn.

    i'm going for my bsn. i though long and hard about whether i wanted to or not. i joined in on a lot of adn vs. bsn threads, dove in head first, looking for something concrete that separates the two. i wanted something to hang my hat on, something to keep in the back of my head while i went back to school. never found it. i know why too.

    see, as i did earlier this thread, my question has always been "what does having your bsn do to help you with bedside nursing?" i would often, as i did here, expand it to "what do you do or understand, given the same patient and resources, that an adn does not? what happens differently for your patient, since you have a bsn?"

    as with this thread, i got no answers. most changed the subject very quickly, others tried very hard to talk with big words and complicate the issue........but it always came back to there being no real answer for the question. one nurse did tell me something i believe (to a degree), which is that it is somewhat "zen-ish" and can't really be put into words or explained, that it is like being told to describe what vanilla tastes like.

    i found my own answer, and am confident in it's truth. that answer being: at the bedside there is no difference. same outcomes, same pg scores, same understanding, same everything. the difference between a bsn and adn nurse presents itself away from the bedside. hence, my question is a trick question, since it only concerns bedside nursing (i knew that this time around, not before).

    adn nurses are taught more of the language about research, they are judged rigorously on their writing styles (apa must be learned), they are forced to take more of a community look during clinicals (i had to write a very large paper describing my nursing experiences otherwise i would have had to do clinicals.......ones that didn't involve hospital bedside nursing) and the mechanics of political nursing are introduced on a larger scale (contacting politicians about certain bills etc).

    in short, the adn is more prepared to do things off the clock and away from the bedside to help advance nursing as a profession.

    and, this is what brings us to why so many people believe there is no real difference. bsns are more prepared to "enter the conversation" regarding nursing being a profession. they are better prepared to take nursing leadership positions in which they can make a difference and be the voice of nursing. but................this is a huge but.............most don't. they perform the roles of an adn nurse, go to work, clock out and go back to their everyday life, all the while telling themselves they are better at it for some (very imagined) reason or another (often things the school told them, the same schools who tell people there are thousands of jobs in nursing). since their higher degree only grants them powers away from the bedside, and they don't use them..........the line between the two degrees is very thin and blurred. i have news for the bsn grads who think they offer anything at the bedside that adns don't. your kidding yourself. it's probably a form of denial, denial brought on by the fact that you know your education has gone to waste because you aren't doing anything extra away from the bedside..........just clock in and clock out and be done.

    as i said, i am going back to school for my bsn. why? because i think i am ready to take that extra step in my career, the part that has nothing to do with bedside care. i feel, while being a part of committees with my hospital, i need to make myself better heard. no one wants to hear what an adn thinks, but some people (admin. and higher ups) will take a bsn trained nurse into account. heck, right here on this very site i was called "a layman" in an article i wrote about how "customer service" kills healthcare. i imagine the point the person was making was that i am adn trained and hence "don't see the whole picture". i'm also planning on being more politically involved. too many things changing and being done these days to sit idle and hope for the best. but this stuff is all off the clock and away from the bedside. thats where my bsn can help me.

    let me know if you feel the same after you start your bsn. i disagree with you.
  10. by   eriksoln
    Quote from madpeys
    Let me know if you feel the same after you start your BSN. I disagree with you.
    Explain it then. Tell me what outcomes you can generate with your patient an ADN trained nurse can not. Answer the (trick) question.

    Or do you agree with my friend who says its "zen-ish" and can't be put into words.
    Last edit by eriksoln on Jul 12, '11
  11. by   MadpeysRN
    Quote from eriksoln
    explain it then. tell me what outcomes you can generate with your patient an adn trained nurse can not. answer the (trick) question.
    or do you agree with my friend who says its "zen-ish" and can't be put into words.
    i will assume "explain it then" is a shortened version of "well, this is is how i feel, how would you describe it?" and not take that statement out of context.

    i was responding to this, "i have news for the bsn grads who think they offer anything at the bedside that adns don't" and this "it's probably a form of denial, denial brought on by the fact that you know your education has gone to waste because you aren't doing anything extra away from the bedside.........." because that is what i disagree with.

    bsn gives you a theoretical and scientific foundation (the "anything extra" part) we can apply at the bedside in addition to the hands on skills we learn from the second term on in lab and clinicals (same as adn).

    i cannot tell you what outcomes i could generate-i have not been an adn student or and rn in my life.

    i do agree with the zen-ish part, however i do not think it is that hard.
    we have time spent on how to be a professional nurse, relating to being highly sensitive to our patients and everyone around us.
    we learn how to be culturally competent, how to hear the patient, how to understand, how to treat the patients spiritual needs, how to be sympathetic, how to understand to look for those needs, how to check our biases, our stereotypes at the door, how to be respectful of others, how to appreciate the cna's, the secretaries, and everyone else we work with. how to recognize anxiety, including our own, how do deal with value conflicts while respecting different veiwpoints.
    we learn pharmacology, ( i have heard some adn programs do not have this they just have drug calc-not sure if it's true or not)
    how to treat a patient as a whole, not just how to do what and when-we get that after we learn the "professional" transition. and imo, for myself, having had these classes-i will be a better nurse because of them, or i definently won't be worse off.

    i suppose since rn's educated by adn or bsn, are exactly the same as you claim-outside the conversation aspect, is this all on the job training for adn's?? or is it not pertinant to our job as a healthcare professional, therefore being just a waste of time? i highly doubt it-bsn's wouldn't exist if that were the case.

    "i have news for the bsn grads who think they offer anything at the bedside that adns don't. your kidding yourself. it's probably a form of denial, denial brought on by the fact that you know your education has gone to waste because you aren't doing anything extra away from the bedside..........just clock in and clock out and be done."
    are you speaking on behalf of all adn grad's? this is an awfully big value statement a bsn grad is likely not to make.

    "bsns are more prepared to "enter the conversation" regarding nursing being a profession." isn't this half the battle?

    i am not in competetion with you-i am all for bettering the nursing profession as a whole.
    Last edit by MadpeysRN on Jul 12, '11
  12. by   eriksoln
    Quote from madpeys

    i cannot tell you what outcomes i could generate-i have not been an adn student or and rn in my life.

    well, here is the point i was making in broad daylight for ya. my assertion is.........you don't have an answer not because you never worked as an adn (nice side step though) but because there is no answer to be had. and remember, you say you bring something that adns don't sooooo.............actually, you have worked as an adn plus more........according to you. i'm just calling your bluff on that.

    i do agree with the zen-ish part, however i do not think it is that hard.
    we have time spent on how to be a professional nurse, relating to being highly sensitive to our patients and everyone around us.
    we learn how to be culturally competent, how to hear the patient, how to understand, how to treat the patients spiritual needs, how to be sympathetic, how to understand to look for those needs, how to check our biases, our stereotypes at the door, how to be respectful of others, how to appreciate the cna's, the secretaries, and everyone else we work with. how to recognize anxiety, including our own, how do deal with value conflicts while respecting different veiwpoints.
    we learn pharmacology, ( i have heard some adn programs do not have this they just have drug calc-not sure if it's true or not)
    how to treat a patient as a whole, not just how to do what and when-we get that after we learn the "professional" transition. and imo, for myself, having had these classes-i will be a better nurse because of them, or i definently won't be worse off.

    blah blah blah blah blah. lots of lingo, nothing concrete. "we learn how to deal with conflicts, how to appreciate cnas, we learn culture competence".....blah blah blah. two things to consider:

    1. you did not mention one thing not taught in adn programs other than pharmacology and yes, most adn programs now require that too. my old school does anyway.

    2. if all this added up to anything of value..............you would have an answer to the imposing question: what can you do for your patient at the bedside that an adn nurse can not? what outcome can you generate that an adn prepared nurse would not?

    but.......ahhhhh, well........we've seen your answer to that question already.

    i suppose since rn's educated by adn or bsn, are exactly the same as you claim-outside the conversation aspect, is this all on the job training for adn's?? or is it not pertinant to our job as a healthcare professional, therefore being just a waste of time? i highly doubt it-bsn's wouldn't exist if that were the case.

    yes. that is pretty much what i am saying. it's a waste of time unless you take advantage of the "away from the bedside" opportunities to use your education. if you only go to work, punch in, punch out and call it a day.......eh, adn would have cost you less and you'd be doing the exact same thing with the same outcomes for your patients.


    are you speaking on behalf of all adn grad's? this is an awfully big value statement a bsn grad is likely not to make.

    "bsns are more prepared to "enter the conversation" regarding nursing being a profession." isn't this half the battle?

    more than half the battle actually. we as nurses, more than any other profession in the healthcare field, keep pt. care and quality outcomes as our focus. if we lose our voice, the patient loses much of their voice too. so, if we have a better standing, they have better outcomes.

    i am not in competetion with you-i am all for bettering the nursing profession as a whole.
    i'm all for bettering the profession too. but part of that is, as you put it......."learning to check our biases and stereotypes at the door."

    one of the biggest biases with nursing at this point in time is that bsns offer something at the bedside that adns don't. that is a joke, to say the least. and to top it off, this bias is fed by schools who want people to spend more for their degree and by healthcare admin. who want to make cosmetic, cost free changes to their staff in hopes of impressing the general public. if bsns really offered anything "extra" that adns didn't, they'd have been offering more money for the bsn trained nurse and all sorts of incentives for people to take that route instead of adn. but........they didn't. why? cause it doesn't change much of anything other than cosmetics. instead, they waited for the opportunity to require bsns without having to pay for them. the recession came, jobs are scarce and everything is more competitive. so, they offer the same old wages and benefits but require a higher degree for it. doesn't sound to me like they truly believe bsns have much to offer beyond what they already get with adns.

    i'm moving on to get my bsn because i see and appreciate my away from the bedside opportunities to invoke change and have my voice be heard. i feel i will be better heard with the bsn education. that, in a nutshell (plus job security) is why i decided getting my bsn is worth it. i do not believe however that i will suddenly have magic wands in my scrubs that were not there before that i wave around and all of a sudden........my co-workers respect me and my patients understand their eduction better and i see things hours before they happen. that is the fluff schools push off on people while trying to convince you to sign the dotted line.
  13. by   fakebee
    Eriksoln if you continue to beat this dead horse I will be forced to report you to the ASPCA and PETA.

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