Immigration: More Foreign Nurses Needed? - page 7

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  1. by   respectall
    patchouli. I appreciate your reply to my post. By the way none in my graduating class ever applied in nursing home setting. it just didn't "appeal". Irregardless how disperate we are with this hard economic time. I don't think anyone would subject themselves to psychological/emotional and physical torture to satisfy daily living. My wife did her clinical in a nursing home and swear she will never ever work in a nursing home. She have seen the pain and suffering that these residents are going through and it just brooke her heart.She wants to do OB when she gets done.
    And who says there such a thing as free labor. Yes it is true that foriegn nurses come for better wages it is only right to compensate them for their services. This doesn't mean they're being paid any higher than the same nurse applying for the sameposition.
  2. by   Patchouli
    i agree that ltcf are not pleasant, and i agree that foreign nurses don't make more than us nurses, not even sure who said they made more? however, i don't see any foreign nurses in the ltcf here. the arguement has somehow changed. it was an arguement of whether or not we should import nurses based on this "shortage". now, somehow, the arguement has changed to importing experienced nurses. the facts are simple; we are in a recession, we cannot afford to ship jobs overseas or import anymore people in need of jobs until we get the people already living here employed. after we are healthy, then welcome everyone back in. if new grads want the experience, they'll take ltc, trust me. if they don't want to do that then fine, but it will happen, some will take those jobs. not my first choice neither, but i desparately need the experience. if i find a hospital job, great! if not, then i'm off to ltc. this subject is touchy for many foreign nurses, and i respect them for getting their license, and i respect them as colleagues, but i also know that when you're running out of bread, and pb&j is all that's available to your kids, then it's probably not the best time to invite the neighborhood kids over for lunch. we need to wait until the skies clear a little, that's alll i'm saying.
  3. by   respectall
    economic recession should not deter us from taking care of the lives of those who are sick and incapacitated. Millions of baby boomer are in their seniors and will be Nursing home bounds. Do you think Sister mary or brother paul will care and nurture their aging parents in their lovely suburbia home? and at the same time attend to thier kids soccer game and work, the answer is unfortunately sad and I'll let you guys answer it for yourselves. Since majority of people that will be taking care of resides in ECF, why aren't many native nurses applying there? Because of the nature of the JOB. It's different when you see that same pt over and over until they're in there dying hours. It puts an emotional toll. Taking care of 20 or more pt will eventually claim your priceless lumbar, Overall Burned out will ultimately claim yourself and that is dangerous!. This may not be all true for a few. but for majority of nurses tHAT i spoke with, it's ultimately the biggest factor in why they've left the ECF. Yes you're absolutely true, we should hire our own firts and foremost, but you see no one is knocking on the door. And many will not stay for long. These elderly and disable residents of our ECF institution needs help now!
  4. by   Patchouli
    Quote from respectall
    economic recession should not deter us from taking care of the lives of those who are sick and incapacitated. millions of baby boomer are in their seniors and will be nursing home bounds. do you think sister mary or brother paul will care and nurture their aging parents in their lovely suburbia home? and at the same time attend to thier kids soccer game and work, the answer is unfortunately sad and i'll let you guys answer it for yourselves. since majority of people that will be taking care of resides in ecf, why aren't many native nurses applying there? because of the nature of the job. it's different when you see that same pt over and over until they're in there dying hours. it puts an emotional toll. taking care of 20 or more pt will eventually claim your priceless lumbar, overall burned out will ultimately claim yourself and that is dangerous!. this may not be all true for a few. but for majority of nurses that i spoke with, it's ultimately the biggest factor in why they've left the ecf. yes you're absolutely true, we should hire our own firts and foremost, but you see no one is knocking on the door. and many will not stay for long. these elderly and disable residents of our ecf institution needs help now!
    i hear what you're saying, but i haven't seen foreign nurses apply to these positions neither. i see many foreign nurses in hospital jobs. i don't see why it's assumed that they are going to take these jobs? we already have an abundance of new grads, if they really want experience, they'll take the jobs if it is all they can get.
  5. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from respectall
    economic recession should not deter us from taking care of the lives of those who are sick and incapacitated. Millions of baby boomer are in their seniors and will be Nursing home bounds. Do you think Sister mary or brother paul will care and nurture their aging parents in their lovely suburbia home? and at the same time attend to thier kids soccer game and work, the answer is unfortunately sad and I'll let you guys answer it for yourselves. Since majority of people that will be taking care of resides in ECF, why aren't many native nurses applying there? Because of the nature of the JOB. It's different when you see that same pt over and over until they're in there dying hours. It puts an emotional toll. Taking care of 20 or more pt will eventually claim your priceless lumbar, Overall Burned out will ultimately claim yourself and that is dangerous!. This may not be all true for a few. but for majority of nurses tHAT i spoke with, it's ultimately the biggest factor in why they've left the ECF. Yes you're absolutely true, we should hire our own firts and foremost, but you see no one is knocking on the door. And many will not stay for long. These elderly and disable residents of our ECF institution needs help now!


    I was the primary caretaker for both my parents while my kids were under 12, for the most part I worked full time, and I was not the only nurse with a similar story.

    I wish you would post where you live since were I live in MASS, SNF and ECFs are not taking any applications, you will do everyone a favor to say where you are from so the unemployed nurses can look at the area.
  6. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from respectall
    SHODOBE. I see that you're an OR nurse. How can you be so oblivious of the staffing problem. When I worked in the Med surg, I have seen post TURP, Angio, choley, suffered unecessesary complication such as UTI, blood loss, hypoxia, hematoma and even sepsis. All this problem occured because the pt has not been closely monitored and or assesed. The RN in med surg where I worked has 6 pt and if lucky she has a tech that is deligent. Many times the RN just dont have enough time to round on a post op pt every 15-30mins, especially if her assignment is already saturated. The moral of the nurses in MED SURG floor where I work is so low because of the staffing problem. This is also the root of the problem of our new grad/hire quiting or relocating because they are dissatisfied and intimidated. Maybe your facility is in satisfactory condition but it is not a reflection to the rest of the country.

    Soon nursing sensitive measures will be publicly reported it will make hospitals accountabel

    From http://www.psnet.ahrq.gov/glossary.aspx#F AHRQ

    Failure to Rescue - "Failure to rescue" is shorthand for failure to rescue (ie, prevent a clinically important deterioration, such as death or permanent disability) from a complication of an underlying illness (eg, cardiac arrest in a patient with acute myocardial infarction) or a complication of medical care (eg, major hemorrhage after thrombolysis for acute myocardial infarction). Failure to rescue thus provides a measure of the degree to which providers responded to adverse occurrences (eg, hospital-acquired infections, cardiac arrest or shock) that developed on their watch. It may reflect the quality of monitoring, the effectiveness of actions taken once early complications are recognized, or both.

    The technical motivation for using failure to rescue to evaluate the quality of care stems from the concern that some institutions might document adverse occurrences more assiduously than other institutions.(1,2) Therefore, using lower rates of in-hospital complications by themselves may simply reward hospitals with poor documentation. However, if the medical record indicates that a complication has occurred, the response to that complication should provide an indicator of the quality of care that is less susceptible to charting bias.

    Initial studies of mortality and complication rates after surgical procedures indicated that lower rates of failure to rescue correlated with other plausible quality measures.(1,2) Rates of failure to rescue have since served as outcome measures in prominent studies of the impacts of nurse-staffing ratios (3,4) and nurse educational levels (5) on the quality of care. Examples of the specific "rescue-able" adverse occurrences in such studies include pneumonia, shock, cardiac arrest, upper gastrointestinal bleeding, sepsis, and deep venous thrombosis.(4) Death after any of these in-hospital occurrences would count as failure to rescue, on the view that early identification by providers can influence the risk of death.

    The AHRQ technical report that developed the AHRQ Patient Safety Indicators (6) reviews the evidence supporting failure to rescue as a measure of the quality and safety of hospital care. Although failure to rescue made the final set of approved indicators, the expert panels that reviewed each candidate indicator identified some unresolved concerns about its use. For instance, patients with advanced illnesses may be particularly difficult to rescue from complications such as sepsis and cardiac arrest. Moreover, patients with advanced illness may not wish "rescue" from such complications. The initial studies that examined failure to rescue focused on surgical care, where these issues may not be as problematic. Nonetheless, the concept of failure to rescue is an important one and finds increasing application in studies of health care quality and safet
  7. by   respectall
    Foriegn nurses application takes a long process. It recquire months to years to finalized the papers. This foriegn nurses has to satisfy clearances from their home country and US. In addition they have to pass a CGFNS, NCLEX, etc. which they pay on their own. Foriegn nurses wage are taxed just like the rest of us tax payers in the states. A lot of foriegn nurses are hired per contract and if any reason it is violated it is termed for deportation and repayment. And dont worry all of these are legal.
  8. by   AZ_LPN_8_26_13
    Quote from patchouli
    i agree that ltcf are not pleasant, and i agree that foreign nurses don't make more than us nurses, not even sure who said they made more? however, i don't see any foreign nurses in the ltcf here. the arguement has somehow changed. it was an arguement of whether or not we should import nurses based on this "shortage". now, somehow, the arguement has changed to importing experienced nurses. the facts are simple; we are in a recession, we cannot afford to ship jobs overseas or import anymore people in need of jobs until we get the people already living here employed. after we are healthy, then welcome everyone back in. if new grads want the experience, they'll take ltc, trust me. if they don't want to do that then fine, but it will happen, some will take those jobs. not my first choice neither, but i desparately need the experience. if i find a hospital job, great! if not, then i'm off to ltc. this subject is touchy for many foreign nurses, and i respect them for getting their license, and i respect them as colleagues, but i also know that when you're running out of bread, and pb&j is all that's available to your kids, then it's probably not the best time to invite the neighborhood kids over for lunch. we need to wait until the skies clear a little, that's alll i'm saying.
    i posted here earlier before this discussion became "sidetracked". i agree with you totally.... it's not about if foreign nurses are qualified or not (they are) or about the language/culture thing (i do actually think cultural diversity is a good thing). what this is about is the idea that we should help our own citizens. should we just say to new american nursing grads "screw them, we don't want to spend the time or money training people anymore. it's faster and cheaper to hire nurses from [insert country here]." of course, nobody can come right out and actually say that. what is usually said is "no one will do these jobs", "we cannot pay anyone enough to work here, so we have to look overseas". "americans are lazy, want too much money, and are harder to manage". i don't believe any of this.

    there is another thread here on allnurses.com where it's mentioned that a hospital in el centro, ca is planning on hiring 20 foreign nurses because they claim they cannot get anyone here to work there. but a recent applicant from the u.s. who claims to be qualified was sent a rejection letter. who knows - maybe that individual really and truly wasn't qualified - but the whole thing sounds fishy to me.

    it's this sort of thing that's the real issue here......

    i used to live in the american midwest. one of the biggest employers (in some places the only real employer) was the meatpacking industry. the claim is now made that americans won't do these jobs. that they won't work hard enough. that they'd be unwilling to live in podunk city, usa. but if you look back to say, pre-1980, the majority of these jobs were done by americans. i hate to have to be the one to come right out and say it, but it looks like the same sort of thing may be happening with nursing. i sincerely hope that i'm wrong about this one......
  9. by   hossridr
    DolceVita:

    Even if they are talking about me -- who cares? I'd just be sorry they had no one more interesting to talk about. Now, if we were in a work meeting or sitting together at a table eating lunch together and these colleagues sat a had a conversation in Japanese...sure I might feel excluded. But my feelings, that they are purposely excluding me, don't make it fact .
    Well, if you have no pride or self-respect, I guess it wouldn't bother you. Suppose these individuals were talking and conspiring against you to set you up or worse? It really has nothing to do with my feelings, but it definitely does have something to do with CYA and self-respect.

    This is not the same as "calling them" on it which is more confrontational.
    Well that is you. For me it's all about creating a non-hostile workplace by removing the catalysts which may lead to a hostile workplace. Look, if it was just me complaining about foreign dialects being spoken in the workplace
    I would have to do some self-analysis, but many other coworkers complain about it also. Besides, if an immigrant nurse wishes to work in an American hospital or clinic they whould learn the language spoken here. They aren't going to learn it by continuing to speak in their own dialect.
  10. by   lindarn
    Quote from respectall
    economic recession should not deter us from taking care of the lives of those who are sick and incapacitated. Millions of baby boomer are in their seniors and will be Nursing home bounds. Do you think Sister mary or brother paul will care and nurture their aging parents in their lovely suburbia home? and at the same time attend to thier kids soccer game and work, the answer is unfortunately sad and I'll let you guys answer it for yourselves. Since majority of people that will be taking care of resides in ECF, why aren't many native nurses applying there? Because of the nature of the JOB. It's different when you see that same pt over and over until they're in there dying hours. It puts an emotional toll. Taking care of 20 or more pt will eventually claim your priceless lumbar, Overall Burned out will ultimately claim yourself and that is dangerous!. This may not be all true for a few. but for majority of nurses tHAT i spoke with, it's ultimately the biggest factor in why they've left the ECF. Yes you're absolutely true, we should hire our own firts and foremost, but you see no one is knocking on the door. And many will not stay for long. These elderly and disable residents of our ECF institution needs help now!
    I agree with that, but lets face it, the working conditions are pretty bad in most nursing homes, and the pay is worse. when they make the working conditions better in nursing homes, and improve compensation, nurses wil flock there to work. JMHO and my NY $0.02.

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  11. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from respectall
    Foriegn nurses application takes a long process. It recquire months to years to finalized the papers. This foriegn nurses has to satisfy clearances from their home country and US. In addition they have to pass a CGFNS, NCLEX, etc. which they pay on their own. Foriegn nurses wage are taxed just like the rest of us tax payers in the states. A lot of foriegn nurses are hired per contract and if any reason it is violated it is termed for deportation and repayment. And dont worry all of these are legal.
    We all know due to retrogression there are thousands of foreign nurses who have sponsors and have completed all the paper work. I know these nurses are legal and have to pay taxes ( since all nursing income is reported to the government).

    I don't see your point, I didn't see anyone on this post contesting where foreign nurses weren't legal or pay taxes. It doesn't make sense to me as a citizen to pay an American unemployment insurance and then hire foreign nurses. It does seem right when American are loosing their homes to hire a foreign nurse. It does n't make sense when a graduate is saddle with loans to deny them a job and then hire a foreign nurse.

    I thought we were keeping to the merits of the question, does American need more foreign nurses or should we hire Americans ? PS You still haven't told me where all these open jobs are!
  12. by   madnurse2b
    Whether more foreign nurses are needed is a very interesting question. However when El Centro's unemployment is over 20% and California's as a whole is over 11%, and there are still nurses on this site who can't find jobs in California?
    I couldn't find the link to CNN's recent story that had El Centro over 26% but this article http://www.10news.com/news/18639428/detail.html shows it over 22%. Seems to me you should be looking to your local people, even if you do have to train more new grads, especially if these are positions you are going to wait on visas and getting people here from another country to fill. But that's just me - and I want a job when I'm done with school too.
  13. by   ghillbert
    Quote from javaline
    ghillbert you seriously need to get over yourself. You come across as being better or above the the new grad and I'm sorry to burst your bubble but you are not!! Yes, you have the experience, but that doesn't make you better than anyone. It's funny how the experienced nurses tend to forget what it was like to be a new grad. We, US nurses, simply want to be given the opportunity/chance to prove ourselves before being pushed aside for a foreign nurse.
    Honey, you don't know me and you don't know anything about me. I don't consider myself better personally than anyone - I'm sure I'm worse than a lot. Professionally? Sorry if it offends you, but I AM better than a new grad. An expert is better than a novice, professionally. I do not insult your skills, I'm sure you're wonderful.. however you cannot put an old head on young shoulders, and you can't put an experienced head on an inexperienced nurse. Please do not consider that a personal insult - it's not.

    For the record, I totally agree that importation of foreign nurses should NOT be accomplished at the expense of American nurses, particularly at this time.

    However, whoever said "we don't need you", I was headhunted here before the recession. Should I leave now? You don't want my taxes? Or the "out of state" fees I pay to my university?Believe me, my mum is terminally ill at home - if I didn't currently have a work contract, I'd be gone.

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