Immigration: More Foreign Nurses Needed? - page 3

immigration: more foreign nurses needed? full article at business week... Read More

  1. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from nicurn001
    PLEASE , PLEASE , PLEASE do not turn this thread into a futile debate on whether foreign nurses are qualified , or due to whatever percieved challenge they present (cultural/ languaue differences ).
    All nurses wherever they are from have to meet the state BON requirements as to course content and have to pass the NCLEX exam . If you meet the requirements you are entitled to call yourself a nurse and seek employment as a nurse .
    Ok, lets not make this an education debate but an immigration debate. What countries would import nurses while the native nurses are unemployed. I say limit immigration until the economy turns.
  2. by   AZ_LPN_8_26_13
    Quote from nicurn001
    please , please , please do not turn this thread into a futile debate on whether foreign nurses are qualified , or due to whatever percieved challenge they present (cultural/ languaue differences ).
    all nurses wherever they are from have to meet the state bon requirements as to course content and have to pass the nclex exam . if you meet the requirements you are entitled to call yourself a nurse and seek employment as a nurse .
    i agree.... the issue isn't wether or not foreign nurses are qualified. they all still have to pass the same state licensing standards and have the same certs. that is not what the problem is. we have plenty of qualified people here already. plus plenty of people who are paying their dues right now going through nursing school (i'm one of them) who'd like to have a job when they get out of "boot camp".... the people who have the power and can make things happen should get cracking and see to it that this country utilizes it own human resources wisely and efficiently. whatever it takes..... offering nurses more money, paying people a bonus to relocate, incentives to hospitals to hire new grads, govt subsidizing nurse education more fully, etc.

    "obama has also expressed skepticism about the idea that the u.s. needs to import nurses, in particular because the u.s. unemployment rate continues to rise. "the notion that we would have to import nurses makes absolutely no sense," obama said at a health-care forum in march. "there are a lot of people [in the u.s.] who would love to be in that helping profession, and yet we just aren't providing the resources to get them trained--that's something we've got to fix."

    i'm glad someone higher up "gets" this, maybe there's still hope.........
  3. by   AZ_LPN_8_26_13
    Quote from SouthernComfort31
    No to importing foreign nurses. There are nurses here, experienced or new grads, that cannot get jobs.
    There are other ways rural areas can recruit homeland nurses:
    - offer incentives to buy houses and settle in the area (like the teaching profession)
    - pay off loans/utilize government programs that pay off school loans for underserved areas...and help new grads find that information (the program is hard to navigate individually)
    - commit to creating healthy work environments that nurses will leave urban areas and move to rural areas

    Enough with the stop-gap measures; think long term! Expand educational opportunities for American citizens that want to get into nursing. Don't drain poorer, underdeveloped countries of their nurses who are also desperate for talented and educated nursing professionals.
    I live in a big city now, but I grew up in small rural towns in the Midwest. One tiny one-horse town that I used to live in decided a long time ago to address the doctor shortage. What they did is offer incentives for docs to move to the town, got together and built them a fine state of the art clinic, etc. Not sure if they helped pay their school loans off, but wouldn't be surprised if they did as part of the deal. And that clinic of course had to have at least a few nurses and associated health career people. A real-life example that I've seen that proves that if you sweeten the pot a bit, people will come, even to Podunk City, USA.

    (All of the people at that clinic were American BTW - most of them were refugees from the big city, who wanted a medical career, and quiet, idyllic country life at the same time)
  4. by   ghillbert
    once again, total ignorance prevails with knee-jerk reactions that are not based on fact.

    Quote from lee1
    the issue of importing "foreign nurses" to fill vacancy shortages has been going on for more than 40 years. yes, in some sense it is all about the money and in another sense it is about bringing in nurses who do not question their working conditions, etc. etc. they don't rock the boat and the managers who hire them love the fact that they do their work, don't ask too many questions, do what they are told. how would you like to work with a whole group of nurses who because of their cultural heritage do not ask questions, rock the boat, empower themselves or their peers ????
    on the other hand many are very good nurses, but becoming part of the americanized culture (primarily women) takes many years to develop the trust/ empowerment that comes with being raised "american"
    i agree that the problem of having too many qualified applicants who are "american", born here, whatever culture they come from or came from legally is the big issue. more professors, paid decent, competitive salaries, benefits is what we need now. at least obama has that right.
    who are you talking about exactly? "foreign" isn't a nationality. i am a foreign nurse working in the usa. my culture is probably >75% similar to the us. i do not "do as i am told", i ask a lot of questions, i am paid the same as any usc would be for the same position (if there was any qualified to do my job). you think i need empowerment? puhleese.

    it is tiring to constantly see "foreign nurses" assumed to be some slightly mute, submissive idiots.

    Quote from nicurn001
    lee1 , it is true that foreign nurses are less likely to rock the boat ,it may also be correct that some may do this due to cultural differences , but the vast majority of foreign nurses keep their heads down because their visa specifies their place of work . if the foreign nurse loses their job for whatever reason , they lose their visa and are liable for deportation if they remain here without a visa , that is a great incentive to not rock the boat .
    this is rubbish as well. the "vast majority" of foreign nurses are brought to the us on immigrant visas. they are not revokable if you leave your job - you have an ead and can work for any employer once you get here.

    Quote from alexk49
    it costs $10k-$30k to import a foreign nurse. if the hospitals that import nurses, gave this money toward a new graduate in form of a deposit on a home i bet many nurses would move.
    where is your source for this information? what type of visa are you talking about? where are those costs from? i am a foreign nurse - it cost me about $2000 to fulfil my state licensure requirements including cgfns and nclex costs. it cost me $130aud for the visa. that's it. that's for an e3. for a h1b, cost is around $9k total (including legal fees). for an immigrant visa, the cost is maybe 2-3000 to cover the medical, application fees, licensure etc. lawyer fees may be more but certainly not up $20k+.

    it costs far more to employ and train a new grad.

    with regard to getting those silly foreign nurses over here for tuppence.. or what did someone suggest - $35kpa? that is ridiculous. any type of working visa requires labor certification - a process whereby the employer has to prove that they are paying the prevailing wage. in addition, they must post the job for uscs to apply.

    there is no requirement to hire a usc before anyone else, unless they have equivalent skills. if i am an rn with 12 years super-specialized experience, my employer has a right to hire me with my skills and not a grad who could not do the job. of course they have the right to hire the best person for the job.

    i am not pro-foreign nurses before american nurses. of course, any country must protect its citizens. but you're just not comparing apples to apples.

    hospitals cannot hire new grads if they don't have any experienced nurses to train them. of course there is a saturation point for new grad positions. there are plenty of rns who do not work in nursing because it's not financially attractive enough - maybe you all should be more concerned with nurse-patient ratios, getting more rns back into the workforce to precept the new grads, and nurse pay rates than with the issue of a relatively small number of foreign nurses working in the us.
  5. by   javaline
    No offense ghillbert, but I am already competing with hundreds of new grads from the US, I don't want to have to compete with the "small number of foreign nurses" too.
  6. by   Ginger's Mom
    http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...ll/23/3/78#R37


    "On average, hospitals pay recruiting agencies $5,000-$10,000 per nurse.37 In return, nurses contract to work from two to three years in the hiring institution. In the Covenant Healthcare System example, Global Healthcare agreed to fully refund the recruiting fee to the hospital if a nurse recruit failed to continue working past three months. The hospital was partially repaid if nurses fell short of their three-year commitment."

    That is not adjusted for inflation.
  7. by   glendz58
    AWESOME!!!!!!! this isreally a good news for us.....:heartbeat
  8. by   ghillbert
    Quote from javaline
    No offense ghillbert, but I am already competing with hundreds of new grads from the US, I don't want to have to compete with the "small number of foreign nurses" too.
    Obviously you cannot grasp the fact that you (if you're a new grad) are not competing with experienced foreign nurses who are able to come in on skilled worker visas. If they were inexperienced new grads, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.

    Quote from Alexk49
    http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi...ll/23/3/78#R37
    "On average, hospitals pay recruiting agencies $5,000–$10,000 per nurse.37 In return, nurses contract to work from two to three years in the hiring institution. In the Covenant Healthcare System example, Global Healthcare agreed to fully refund the recruiting fee to the hospital if a nurse recruit failed to continue working past three months. The hospital was partially repaid if nurses fell short of their three-year commitment."
    That is not adjusted for inflation.
    OK, so your old link lists a figure of $5-10K. From where did you get the figure of $30K that you posted? (BTW, this is not the cost of hiring a foreign nurse. It's the cost of a recruiting company.)
  9. by   PostOpPrincess
    I do feel bad for the new grads.

    All the job openings where I work are for experienced nurses only. They would hire in an instant for an ER, ICU, NICU, L & D EXPERIENCED nurse.

    With a bonus to boot.....
  10. by   EmilyLucille523
    Quote from ghillbert
    once again, total ignorance prevails with knee-jerk reactions that are not based on fact.


    who are you talking about exactly? "foreign" isn't a nationality. i am a foreign nurse working in the usa. my culture is probably >75% similar to the us. i do not "do as i am told", i ask a lot of questions, i am paid the same as any usc would be for the same position (if there was any qualified to do my job). you think i need empowerment? puhleese.

    it is tiring to constantly see "foreign nurses" assumed to be some slightly mute, submissive idiots.


    this is rubbish as well. the "vast majority" of foreign nurses are brought to the us on immigrant visas. they are not revokable if you leave your job - you have an ead and can work for any employer once you get here.


    where is your source for this information? what type of visa are you talking about? where are those costs from? i am a foreign nurse - it cost me about $2000 to fulfil my state licensure requirements including cgfns and nclex costs. it cost me $130aud for the visa. that's it. that's for an e3. for a h1b, cost is around $9k total (including legal fees). for an immigrant visa, the cost is maybe 2-3000 to cover the medical, application fees, licensure etc. lawyer fees may be more but certainly not up $20k+.

    it costs far more to employ and train a new grad.

    with regard to getting those silly foreign nurses over here for tuppence.. or what did someone suggest - $35kpa? that is ridiculous. any type of working visa requires labor certification - a process whereby the employer has to prove that they are paying the prevailing wage. in addition, they must post the job for uscs to apply.

    there is no requirement to hire a usc before anyone else, unless they have equivalent skills. if i am an rn with 12 years super-specialized experience, my employer has a right to hire me with my skills and not a grad who could not do the job. of course they have the right to hire the best person for the job.

    i am not pro-foreign nurses before american nurses. of course, any country must protect its citizens. but you're just not comparing apples to apples.

    hospitals cannot hire new grads if they don't have any experienced nurses to train them. of course there is a saturation point for new grad positions. there are plenty of rns who do not work in nursing because it's not financially attractive enough - maybe you all should be more concerned with nurse-patient ratios, getting more rns back into the workforce to precept the new grads, and nurse pay rates than with the issue of a relatively small number of foreign nurses working in the us.

    funny, with comments like the ones in these posts thats how you make us new grads feel like.
  11. by   Kosmonavt
    That's why I like how things work in Canada and Australia. The government pays to hospitals to train new grads up to 6 month.
  12. by   SouthernComfort31
    ghillbert: how do you feel about the "brain drain" that happens to the country that loses their skilled nursing professional to the USA? I'm not sure where you are from; is there a similar nursing shortage in your home country?
  13. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from ghillbert
    Obviously you cannot grasp the fact that you (if you're a new grad) are not competing with experienced foreign nurses who are able to come in on skilled worker visas. If they were inexperienced new grads, I'd agree with you wholeheartedly.


    OK, so your old link lists a figure of $5-10K. From where did you get the figure of $30K that you posted? (BTW, this is not the cost of hiring a foreign nurse. It's the cost of a recruiting company.)
    I understand the recruiting company makes most of the profit, what I have observed is they pay for airfare and often the first months of rent.

    http://www.futurehealthcareus.com/?m...m-viewresearch

    We place our nurses on long-term contract assignments (18 months on average). The hospital pays an hourly rate to Avant when the nurse commences work at the client hospital. There is no fee for the hospital to hire the Avant nurse directly on staff after the assignment term. The true cost to the hospital is the premium in our hourly bill rate over the contract assignment as opposed to the comprehensive hourly cost for the hospital's staff nurses. This premium is only about $22,000-24,000, on average.


    http://books.google.com/books?id=Mlz...esult&resnum=9

    This Nurse Manager's book cites easily $10K

    That is not even considering the prolonged orientation, most foreign nurses need and is recommended by the ICN, especially when English is a second language.

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