Hospitals turn to LPN's to fill staffing shortages - page 2
From NurseWeek:... Read More
May 14, '07[quote=lindarn;2201556]There has been MINIMUM EFFORT by hospitals to RETAIN the RNs that they have. This will just give them an excuse to continue to deskill bedside nursing by replacing RN positions with LPNs.
I have been an LPN for 12 years and this is the mentality that severely limits my job choices. Put me next to a graduate RN and I can nurse circles around him/her. 12 years experience is nothing to dismiss. I am not just "tooting my own horn" but have been told by supervising RN's that my work is better than most of the RN's in the building!
So thank you, lindarn, for continuing the practice of discrimination. If I'm black or chinese or anything else different from you, would you still discriminate against me and my fellow LPN's??
May 14, '07I agree 100% with what Lindarn says. Unions and Professional Associations are trying to stabilize the whole problem. Nursing to me seemed to take off in the 1980s and was getting close and closer to what Lindarn describes (as also described in numerous Susanne Gordon Books, which IMHO everyone who has an interest in the future of nursing should read), with the managed care environment in the late 80s, all that stuff got flushed down the toilet. Its a combination of all of the above if it was a multiple choice question. Nurses need to Justify their existence to the general public. The general public gets very confused to as who is a Nurse anymore when they walk into a facility. Its a nurse by nurse basis. LPNs are to augment RNs. Pharmacy Techs are to Augment Pharmacists. RNs are to manage the patient care, etc. (the millions of things the nurses do). It ticks me off when people confuse the janitor with a nurse. Nurses need more $ and respect. In the early 80s they were making maybe $10.00 an hour, unions and nurses fighted for increases. Nurses have to form a service and sell back to the hospital like a lot of doctors have been for years. This has to be done. It seems that from talking to non nursing people that the public seems to start to have a general understanding, but then loses pieces of the puzzle as it starts to form in the publics mind about the role of an educated RN in a medical setting. I know my Pharmacology as a Pharmacy Tech. working in a psych hospital. However, there is no way I could safely play the role of a pharmacist and not have someone die by the end of the day, I don't have the education and training a Pharmacist does. Same thing with an LPN vs. an RN. I think by having sustained levels of nursing. Eg. a Technical Nurse would be an ADN, a Professional Nurse would be a BSN, then so on and so forth, would help. Finish off where the nursing profession left off is getting harder and harder every year.Last edit by drmorton2b on May 14, '07
May 14, '07Quote from kstecAs I've said before in other threads, I will never work in a hospital due to the fact that at present in my state and city LPN's are not good enough. So I don't care how bad the nursing shortage gets, I will only work in facilities that have supported me as a LPN all along. Yes I thoroughly enjoy working as a nurse but through this present weeding out of LPN's, it has left a bad taste in my mouth. I'm not sure but originally LPN's were supposed to be part of support staff for RN's, but somehow ended up being considered incompetent and uneducated. So for now I'll keep working at my prn clinic and LTC job where I've never been made to feel like less of a nurse because I'm an LPN.
Here...Here ! I totally agree with you on this :angryfire
May 14, '07don't sugar coat this mess right here. out of 471 of your post i bet i could site at least 400 post that deal with how lvn's and adn's are incompetent and have no place in the nursing world.
Quote from lindarni have nothing against lpns, but they are not the solution for a shortage on registered nurses.
May 14, '07Quote from txspadequeen921i have never said that adns and lpns are incompetant. reality is, that all other health care professionals have increased their entry into practice, except rns. we have actually digressed in that respect. and all the other health care professions now, as always, enjoy far higher pay, and respect, than nurses. am i the only one who is able to connect the dots?don't sugar coat this mess right here. out of 471 of your post i bet i could site at least 400 post that deal with how lvn's and adn's are incompetent and have no place in the nursing world.
suzanne gordon, in the last chapter of her book, also concluded that nurses need to go to a bsn as entry into practice. for gods sake, physical therapy assistants have a two year associates degree as entry into practice. and lpns have one year post hs education? get real, folks. no one is saying that they do not do a good job, only that this is the 21st century, and the public deserves better. health care had gotten far too complex to compress it into one or two years.
the public may think that we are wonderful, and that is more because of the vast amount of care they receive from us for the hs dropout wages that we accept as professional compensation. physical therapists, who work in hospitals here in low pay spokane, are earning $100,000 a year. nurses here make in the mid to high 40's. what is wrong with this picture? nothing you say? pts have a doctorate as entry into practice? to walk grandma in the hallways?
as i have stated, nurses should go to a bsn as entry into practice, with full "grandfathering" in of all diploma grads, and adns. no one needs to earn a bsn in order to continue to practice. lpns should go to a two year technical degree of an associates degree, again, with grandfathering in of all present lpn/lvns. hospitals can provide on site classes to nurses, to make it as easy as posible to attain the degree, if that is what they desire. they did it for pharmacists, when they went to a doctorate as entry into practice.
there is a real lack of information, and a complete disconnect, by nurses, about the information, and knowledge, that nurses need to survive in the present climate in hospitals. classes like, employment law, administrative law, insurance law, independant contracting, starting a business (pts and ots take these classes in their programs), basic business classes, like marketing. i call these, "quality of life classes". nurses would be alot better off if they had been taught the business skills in nursing schools. reality is, there is no time in diploma and adn programs to teach this very valuable information. nursing is more than bed baths, and making beds. we need the knowledge, information, and skills to fend off the attacks on our professional practice. none of us had these skills ten, fifteen, years ago, when hospitals started the cost cutting measures at the bedside. we had no way of defending our practice, and place at the bedside. mostly because our national organizations, and state boards, as usual, failed us miserabley, did nothing to valildate our worth to patient care, and positive patient outcomes. we were worthless to the hospitals, who continue, to this day, refuse to acknowledge our contribution to their organization, and hospitals.
they want us to remain invisible to the public so they can continue to de skill our professional practice, and disempower us. this was easy to do, because of the low levels of education that we bring to the marketplace. i know how hard nursing school is, i was a diploma grad first. but all the hospital had to do was convince the public that it was no big deal, (we only went to school for two years, and lpn/lvns only went to school for one), if they cut rn staffing at the bedside, and replaced us with nurses aides. they pushed this to the point, that at the time, many hospitals made us take our professional titles (rn), off of our name tags. this was a ruse, so the public did not know that the person taking care of them was, in reality, a nurses aide with a hs diploma, and six weeks of ojt, if even that much. they are sensitive to the perception by the public, of who is taking care of the patient, and what their qualifictions are. the public equates worth with education.
so, i stand by my letter. i know that there are those who disagree, but what can i say. you can either move forward, as our fellow health care professionals have, and claim our righful place at the bedside, or stagnate, and continue to fall behind in the marketplace. which we have. jmho, and my ny $0.02.
lindarn, rn, bsn, ccrn
spokane, washingtonLast edit by lindarn on May 14, '07 : Reason: spelling
May 14, '07First question is for lindarn...Do you work bedside? Guess what? LPN's almost always will, why because the more initials people get after their name the further away they get from patients. (not all, but alot). Sorry, but as a LPN I don't want to perform brain surgery, just take care of patients in my scope of practice without being belittled. Well when all the RN's get their BSN's and MSN's, us LPN's and ADN's will be here to take care of the patients at the bedside, why because we do not have all the letters after our names and maybe we don't want them.
May 14, '07I am very much in agreement with providing business education for nurses. Perhaps some electives in all nursing programs could be business courses such as marketing our skills and/or legal skills such as defensive employment. There are so many things to learn, but as we all know time is limited in any nursing program. I have a few family members who have business skills and knowledge and they sure are great for giving a non nursing perspective. JMO.
May 15, '07Quote from kstecNo, I do not work at bedside nursing anymore, and no one is belittiling you. I don't because I have medical issues to deal with. The main reason nurses with BSNs and advanced degrees leave bedside nursing is because we are not rewarded monetarily for our educational efforts. Period. I wanted a return on my investment for my education just like doctors, and physical therapists want a financial return on thiers. When bedside nurses allow higher pay for nurses with BSNs, and higher degrees, then they will stay at bedside nursing. BSNs want to take care of patients too. But we want a higher rate of pay, deserving of a higher college degree, just like doctors, and physican therapist, and pharmacists.First question is for lindarn...Do you work bedside? Guess what? LPN's almost always will, why because the more initials people get after their name the further away they get from patients. (not all, but alot). Sorry, but as a LPN I don't want to perform brain surgery, just take care of patients in my scope of practice without being belittled. Well when all the RN's get their BSN's and MSN's, us LPN's and ADN's will be here to take care of the patients at the bedside, why because we do not have all the letters after our names and maybe we don't want them.
When I can get that at bedside nursing, I will return to bedside nursing. Maybe someday nurses will all be Independant Contractors, and then nurses with higher degrees will just set their own rates for themeselves, and not have to worry about those who chose not to earn a higher education, and have them set my wages.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
May 15, '07I hate this subject and it always turns into a nasty flame fight. is there anyway we can close this?
30years Critical care and ER and that will get me any job I want.
May 15, '07Quote from DalzacPlease.I hate this subject and it always turns into a nasty flame fight. is there anyway we can close this?
30years Critical care and ER and that will get me any job I want.
May 15, '07Quote from lindarnEven though I am an LPN , I agree with you Lindarn, LPNs should not be a substitute for an RN. Why should hospitals now consider LPN's "good enough" because they are still not willing to provide a decent work environment for their RNs? There are many very intelligent LPNs, but we are not RNs.Why should we be part of increasing the hospitals revenue by having us take an RNs place at an LPNs wages? All nurses, LPNs and RNs continue to be abused and misused by corporate healthcare, things are bad now, will get worse until nurses EN MASS will wise up and stop the foolish notion that unions wont help their situation.There are not enough laws out there yet to adequatly protect the ethical nurse, much work needs to be done, if strong unions like the CNA can make this happen, why would we not want their help?Exactly WHAT NURSING SHORTAGE are you referring to? There are 500,000 REGISTERED NURSES not working in this country due to impossible workloads, disrespect, and low pay. And most new RN grads leave the bedside within 4-6years, if not sooner, in disgust. I have nothing against LPNs, but they are not the solution for a shortage on Registered Nurses.
There has been MINIMUM EFFORT by hospitals to RETAIN the RNs that they have. This will just give them an excuse to continue to deskill bedside nursing by replacing RN positions with LPNs. I assume this will be accompanied by a push to our elected officials to expand the scope of practice of LPN/LVNs, so they can have LESSER EDUCATED individuals do what RNs ARE EDUCATED TO DO. This, by the way, is what the nursing home industry did with nursing homes. It used to be that nursing homes were required by Federal Law to have a REGISTERED NURSE on the premises AT ALL TIMES. Thanks to pressure by the Nursing Home Industry, they can now legally have an only an LPN/LVN on the premises at all times, instead of an RN.
With what nursing homes and assisted living homes are charging the residents, they should be staffing with at least one RN at all times. And there is no reason with the actual number of RNs in this country, that they would not be able to accomplish this.
Show RNs the money, better working conditions, staffing ratios, and RNs will come back in droves. Look at California since that enacted the staffing rations, and CNA worked to improve pay, benefits, and workplace protections. JMHO, and my NY $0.02.
Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
Spokane, WashingtonLast edit by Simplepleasures on May 15, '07
May 15, '07This seems like this is, yet, another flame war of LPN verses RN. What I see happening is that now that RNs are going towards the goal of being professionals, they do have less time at the bedside. WHO, then, is going to do it? Whether it is accepted or not, LPNs do exist, and we do have basic training in bedside nursing and should be utilized within our scope of practice. I am not pan-handling, begging for money or getting over at my place of work. I am trying to make an honest living the same as anyone else and have the right to be respected as an important part of the health care team.
May 15, '07Quote from pagandeva2000This seems like this is, yet, another flame war of LPN verses RN. What I see happening is that now that RNs are going towards the goal of being professionals, they do have less time at the bedside. WHO, then, is going to do it? Whether it is accepted or not, LPNs do exist, and we do have basic training in bedside nursing and should be utilized within our scope of practice. I am not pan-handling, begging for money or getting over at my place of work. I am trying to make an honest living the same as anyone else and have the right to be respected as an important part of the health care team.