FSU students left hanging by nursing program suspension - page 2
Fayetteville, N.C. — Fayetteville State University's decision Monday to suspend its bachelor's degree program in nursing has left some students in limbo. The 4-year-old program has been plagued by... Read More
May 13, '09Occupation: ICU, RN/BSN Specialty: ICU, telemetry ; From: US ; Joined: Sep '06; Posts: 2,115; Likes: 8,405This was in the news & observer....
"Two Board of Nursing consultants visited the program last month. They reported that a group of seniors told them some students were taken off campus when administrators learned of the Board of Nursing's visit, to keep them from talking"
And this was from august of 07
Fayetteville State University has told nursing students a standardized test that prompted complaints after students failed it won't be used as part of their grade.
Interim Chancellor Vic Hackley told about 70 students Thursday that the test had been used incorrectly in the past and was intended only for assessment.
Students complained last week to the State Board of Nursing and the University of North Carolina system about the test from Health Education Systems. The complaints came after 43 out of 46 rising juniors and 11 seniors didn't score a passing grade.
"The way Fayetteville State used it in the past was incorrect, and we are going to change that," Hackley said. "HESI is not going to stop anybody from graduating."
The university's nursing program is trying to get full approval from the nursing board. The board delayed a vote on FSU's program in May.
Hackley said he would have an answer next week on whether the 11 seniors would have to return in the fall to earn degrees or be allowed to graduate immediately.
Information from: The Fayetteville Observer, http://www.fayettevillenc.com
Here's what I don't see -- the students say, "hey, wait a minute, why aren't you teaching me enough so I can PASS HESI." rather than "I can't pass the HESI, so throw it out." If I took one of the ATI tests and bombed it or HESI and bombed that, I'd be flipping out and studying my head off. But you see right there what mattered to the university prior to the board shutting down the program -- graduating students (read: $$$), not turning out nurses capable of passing their boards.
May 13, '09Joined: Apr '08; Posts: 119; Likes: 64Well, what can I say? I am glad to hear that someone Assessed their areas of weaknesses in the program. Now, they can Diagnosis the problem. I have no doubt that its the instructors lack of teaching methodology. Why? Students matriculated onto the next course. Right? I am not personally attacking all nursing instructors.
I am just simply saying, based on my and other co workers who I have spoke with about their nursing school experience. Instructors don't want to be bothered, they themselves don't have enough "teaching experience." I encountered only one instructor out of 8 who I can truly say, she was passionate about teaching, and knew what she was talking about. You can be an RN for 20 years, but teaching is a whole different level.
What comes after diagnosising the problem? Plan, Implement than Evaluate. I can't blame the students. I just feel sorry that they are going through this. Students depend on their instructors to educate them. If the students are not assessed correctly throughout the program by their instructors... than yea, expect them not to pass Nclex. Just as a nurse, if you don't assess your patients correctly.. what will happen?
Unfortunatley, for the students, their nursing credits are NOT transferrable. Thats a whole other issue, which I feel, is not fair either. Nursing courses should be transferrable. With todays economy the way it is. People are losing their homes and have to move.
My prayers are with the students. I hope FSU will think of the students. I do applaud FSU for recognizing the problem. Thats a good start. Good Luck!
Do right by the students. Remember, students "look up" to their educators for knowledge, and inspiration.
May 13, '09Occupation: ICU, RN/BSN Specialty: ICU, telemetry ; From: US ; Joined: Sep '06; Posts: 2,115; Likes: 8,405If you go out and read on the News&Observer site (and other NC news outlets), Fayetteville State knew they had problems, and didn't do anything about it (except lower the bar to graduate) until the BON came in and was going to shutdown their program next week. This is the kind of stuff that makes me crazy. Rather than saying, "hey, we're a new program, we need to keep initial numbers low until we get the kinks worked out" they loaded up the program, and now there are a lot of people who may never be a nurse....and those that do have a FSU diploma may be perceived as lower quality nurses and have problems with either employment or going back for higher degrees.
May 13, '09Joined: Apr '08; Posts: 119; Likes: 64HESI. HESI. HESI. I think everyone already knows how I feel about HESI. How can you withold a students degree and the opportunity to take Nclex when they have completed the nursing program? How can you hold the student accountable for taking a probabilty exam, so that your school can look good?
Knowing... that some of the questions on the HESI exit exam where never introduced in the nursing curriculum. You can't even find some of the HESI question and answer on any of your nursing textbooks. This shortcut process is SELFISH! The City Colleges of Chicago theirs seven colleges together, is STILL using the HESI exit exam as a way to weed out those who have already completed the program to determine who should and should not take Nclex. If your HESI score does not indicate above 87% probability that you may pass Nclex the first time. The college will NOT allow you to take Nclex nor give you, your degree. What? Four years, passed each course, quit jobs, and no more money. Classmate committed suicide over it.
Now, FSU and other programs are following this path? The BON of each state, NLNAC are all aware of this - NO ONE is doing a darn thing about it.
PLEASE! I beg of you all. Please utilize this test accordingly. DON'T punish your students. HELP THEM. Truly, it not fair to give an probability exit exam for punitive reasons. ASSESS the students! If they completed the program, that means they were loyal, and comitted to the hard work you installed upon them.
In return for their hard work and committement, you are giving them anxiety, lack of respect for both the students and their families. REMEMBER, your actions not only affect the students but their children.
If the students are having trouble passing the HESI exit exam, than its a reflection on the teaching methodology. The curriculum is lacking therefore the student is lacking. When a marriage fails... its never one person's fault. Both have to take accountability.
If you are going to use HESI, use it all throughout the program. Don't introduce it - suddently, than raise the passing grade from 78% and above to 87% above for HESI.
My hopes are that this test be used as an assessment tool throughout the program. That is not used for punitive and intimidation purposes.
My hopes are that students upon completing the program, that the school is responsible for the students until the student is successful - that means until they pass HESI and Nclex. The City Colleges of Chicago nursing program abandoned their students once they did not pass HESI.
My hopes are that someone can step up to the plate and help ALL students who have been inflicted by this pandemic virus that was introduced to them by selfishness, money, and power hungry chancellors.
I know my classmate who passed away... is helping.Last edit by 2btmanrn on May 13, '09
May 13, '09Occupation: RN Joined: May '09; Posts: 5As a former students at FSU I can speak about the nursing program. I had a BA in NJ in biology and decided to go for nursing. I applied and started taking preqs and repeating one class since it was ove 5 yrs in Jan 08 at FSU thinking it was a good program even though many people warned me about all the BS in their nursing program. I had all A's in all the seven classes I took including three nursing courses. My GPA was a 4.0 and I had an 82% in the HESI entrance exam, I busted my A** in all my classes to make sure that I did all I could to get into the Nursing program.
Summer came, and I was denied acceptance into the program due to "limited spaces" BS. I was so angry because I felt I waisted my time and money. Then I found out they accepted students who were not even qualified to be in the program, students who didn't even pass the HESI and had low GPA's. I'm so glad they closed the program because the staff and faculty members sucked, instead of chosinf student who are qualified, they were chosing by favoritism. They also not know how to teach at all. They is so much more BS about FSU I can say and not enough time to write.
Now I'm stuck in limbo and dont know where to go from here and where to apply or what state should I move to now since my husband is in the Military.
May 13, '09Joined: Jul '07; Posts: 1,775; Likes: 1,179Quote from AnerooIt was a huge embarrassment to the school; front-page news for a while. They were under a lot of pressure, because the school is county and state taxpayer-supported. But yes, it does show that if the will is there, major changes can be implemented and a program can be made much stronger.How wonderful they were able to turn the program around and improve it. I hope that's was FSU is able to do! The article I had read mentioned they would continue to RN-BSN program, and maybe gear their efforts towards that and supporting the local community colleges. They're near a military base, so I think they could really help out there in education as well.
May 13, '09Joined: Apr '08; Posts: 119; Likes: 64WOW! That sounds exactly like here in Chicago. I went to one of City Colleges of Chicago and the instructors there did not want to teach a darn thing. They favored certain students, those same students did not have to do the assignments like other students. One student in particular, who passed HESI the first time, (very suspicious) missed three exams and still passed the course. Although, she passed HESI the first time, it took her four times to pass Nclex. Go figure. Her grade in class was higher than mine. The instructors are given way too much power.
I had one instructor who changed my grade, I didn't even argue with her I just wanted to get the heck out of there. I figured, she knew what she did was pure evil and God has ways to take of those kinds of people.
I am praying for someone to step up to the plate and resolve this pandemic problem!
I know, maybe the HESI Company and the who inappropriately uses the exit probability/assessment exam can come together as one and create some sort of 6 week review course which includes test taking and critical thinking skills, most of all building up self confidence for ALL of those students were not successful. Hire a few psychologist to also assess these students. Because, these schools have created a environment that was infectious rather than conducive. I know, I know, this idea is only in a dream, and it only would be right. Afterall, its not like the HESI company and the schools can afford it. Right?
You know what else would be right? If instructors would advocate their students.
May 13, '09Occupation: ICU, RN/BSN Specialty: ICU, telemetry ; From: US ; Joined: Sep '06; Posts: 2,115; Likes: 8,405The problem with things like what 2btmanrn said is that they cost money. Colleges are in the business of TAKING our money, not necessarily giving us what we need.
And if you don't think that's so, go compare the cost of your textbooks at the campus bookstore vs. Barnes and Noble....
May 13, '09Occupation: personal banker From: US ; Joined: Apr '08; Posts: 196; Likes: 80Well as an alumna of a university in the North Carolina system I can say that Fayetteville State is a lower-tiered school and is no way in the ranks of the nursing schools at UNCG or Duke or UNC-CH. I would assume that there is a huge problem with the instruction at this school not limited to just the Nursing department. Not surprisingly, the admission standards to the general university is not very high. Moreover, as a former student at this school said (and I believe her having heard what I have heard in the past) there are different rules played when it comes to admissions to the nursing department. Bottom line is even with the best instruction if you are consistently selecting students who have low GPAs and poor grades in pre-reqs and low scores on the entrance exam you are not going get a particularly motivated pool of students to begin with.
May 13, '09Joined: Oct '03; Posts: 17,241; Likes: 42,354I am by no means saying this in defense of FSU, but I have to wonder how much this sort of situation (and not just in NC) is influenced by the general societal push to increase the number of nursing schools and nursing students. That's all we've heard in nursing for many years now -- what a problem it is that more people can't get into nursing school, because we need to do something about the nursing "shortage," and the only answer to the "shortage" that anyone has wanted to talk about is cranking out ever larger waves of new grads every year ... Everybody wants nursing schools to admit more students, and more. Well, nursing schools have been springing up all over the country like mushrooms after a spring rain, and it's safe to assume that they aren't all going to be good programs. IMHO, nursing education in general made the choice to opt for "quantity, not quality" quite a while back, and this is just one example of the chickens coming home to roost.
May 14, '09Joined: Apr '08; Posts: 119; Likes: 64Sorry, ElKPARK. This has nothing to do with the nursing shortage. It has to do with deceptive practices. The ony was these nursing programs can get money is by advertising that their Nclex pass rate is high, above 90% would be great. Our school advertises they have 98% Nclex pass rate. But... that is based on for example, 3-5 students who took the Nclex. What about the 40 plus students who completed the program? For example, if 5 students took Nclex the first time and 3 out of 2 passed the first time, our school have stated 98% pass rate. Now, if the 2 who did not pass the Nclex the first, takes it again and both passed the second time. Our school can state they have 100% Nclex pass rate.
What you don't know is... the attrition rate. It will never match the Nclex pass rate. Why? Nobody bothers to ask. Everyone naturally assumes that when you complete the program you take the Nclex. That used to be the case. Not anymore.
The higher Nclex pass rate the nursing program has, the more money they receive from the state. They receive money from investors, who assume they are investing in a good program. They receive money from students, who also assume they are investing in a good program.
What I would like to see is... anyone who maybe doing their dissertation would chose these topics/titles...
"The True Meaning Behind The Nclex RN %."
"Using a Third Party Test To Assess Their Students, An Easy Way Out."
"98% Fail HESI But the School Says.."Thats Okay."
"Does HESI Give Out Kick Backs?"
"Where is Susan Morrision Now?"
"The List." "Nursing Programs Who Uses Their Students as Escapegoats."
Most of all... "A True Class Action Lawsuit."
I pray each second of the day that someone with intergrity and principles would step up to the plate and help all of these students who were used by their chancellors. This truly deserves a nation wide recognition. I don't want anyone to follow my classmates suit. The LOSS OF YOUR DEGREE, CONFIDENCE AND CREATION OF HUMILATION, ABANDONMENT AND DEHUMANIZATION is AN UNBEARABLE PAIN.
In Chicago, which is already known to be the MOST politically corrupted state. Write to the governor, states attorney, and the newly formed group againt corruption in chicago. I cant remember his name off hand, but he is the one who is after Rod Blagoveich. Also, write your concerns to the Illinois Community College Board (ICCB), Higher Learning Eduation. Keep all of your notes... you will need those. Keep writing and sending over and over until you get a response. Create a group and stick together. The chancellor is aware that students don't stick together, that is where the students areas of weaknesses are.
WE MUST COME TOGHETHER AS ONE -NATIONALLY!
WHETHER IT AFFECTS YOU PERSONALLY OR NOT.
DON'T WAIT UNTIL SOMETHING HAPPENS TO YOU OR YOUR CLASSMATES.
SUPPORT THE CAUSE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE THIS IS UNJUST.
DEMAND TO BE TAUGHT AND RESPECTED.
I AM PRAYING CONTINOUSLY. I HAVE FAITH IN THE LORD. HE WILL BE OUR SAVIOR. WE MUST ALL STICK TOGETHER. WE MUST BECOME AS ONE.Last edit by 2btmanrn on May 14, '09
May 14, '09From: US ; Joined: Sep '06; Posts: 15; Likes: 3I couldn't imagine being one of those students left in limbo. I have to wonder though, who would apply to a program with such a low pass rate? Were they not able to get in elsewhere?