Foreign Nurses Charged For Walking Off Job - page 8

Smithtown nurses charged with endangering kids after walk-out Ten nurses who abruptly resigned from their jobs last year at a Smithtown nursing center were charged Thursday -- along with an... Read More

  1. by   Gromit
    Quote from lizz
    Not to my knowledge, and I don't live in a right to work state.

    You can still quit at any time with notice. The only thing an employer can do (at least in my state) is make you pay a financial penalty under contract, but only IF they gave you some money, loans, etc. up front.

    Like if they paid you a $10K bonus for a 2-3 year commitment, loaned you some money for a 2-3 year commitment or, in the case of these nurses, paid for their expenses to come here and get licensed.

    You'd have to pay the penalty under the contract terms, but they can't keep you from quitting.

    And, if a bunch of nurses quit all at the same time, as far as I know that would be legal if they gave adequate notice.

    :typing
    Who determines what 'adequate notice' is? Does the state spell it out?
    Who determines weather or not "X" number of nurses is crippling (too many) ? I have a hard time believing that if one nurse just up and quit (after handing off their patients to the relieving nurse) they would be in violation of the law, and could be prosecuted for 'disabling' a facility.
    In a facility like mine that has literally hundreds of nurses, 10 wouldn't have a major effect either -though it would be felt on the floors that used 'em.
    ---------
    While I'm busy arguing FOR these nurses that quit, I should point out that in no way do I actually agree with the way they did it -I certainly don't condone their actions. But it gets under my skin when people who don't know the whole story (and lets be honest, we do NOT know the whole story -we know what a biased paper and prosecutor WANT us to know -and what they want us to know has been sensationalized) are really quick to condemn the nurses.
    I've rarely cared for sick children in the hospital (only time I've had sick kids was back in my EMS days) -the youngest on my floor have been late teens. But I care just as much for the patients on ventilators on my floor as any would for their patients on their floor. The ONLY reason to parade images of these sick kids is to make an emotional case -and if thats the best they can do, then they have no case -they fear that if reason is used instead of emotion, the prosecution will lose.
    THAT is something I find disgusting.
    Last edit by Gromit on Mar 27, '07
  2. by   mercyteapot
    Quote from Gromit
    While I'm busy arguing FOR these nurses that quit, I should point out that in no way do I actually agree with the way they did it -I certainly don't condone their actions. But it gets under my skin when people who don't know the
    The ONLY reason to parade images of these sick kids is to make an emotional case -and if thats the best they can do, then they have no case -they fear that if reason is used instead of emotion, the prosecution will lose.
    THAT is something I find disgusting.
    :yeahthat:

    And I still want to know what's with the drama about these children "having no one to call". Huh? The patients are responsible for calling staff into this facility? Fascinating!
  3. by   Gromit
    Exactly. Thats why I'm saying that they have no real case. They feel the need to sway public opinion with false claims and gross exaggerations -this tells me that they cannot win on the merits of the case alone.
    Kind of reminds me of a certain prosecutor who was playing politics with the lives of certain lacrosse players -and playing very loose with the facts of his case...
  4. by   pinoy_guy
    i feel happy that americans will fight for the rights of non-americans, but also sad because this time it might not be deserved.

    a lot of people know about sentosa--about its terms, its workload.

    yet filipino nurses sign up.

    why?

    because of money.

    most of us don't have it.

    considering the philippine minimum daily wage is $7/day, and the visascreen is around $300, how long does it take for a filipino family to raise that amount?

    note that $7 is not "money in the pocket"--you have to deduct taxes and daily living expenses.

    it would literally take years to raise that amount.

    what about the nclex?

    transportation to hong kong for the nclex?

    we're talking thousands of dollars here.

    then there's the immigrant visa--the holy grail.

    these agencies petition their recruits for green cards...for a portion of their pay and a contract for 2 to 3 years.

    agencies "invest" in the nurses they recruit, and exact a high price for their service.

    next, consider that it is difficult to just move to the us from the philippines--it is quite a culture shock.

    the simple things americans take for granted are a big deal.

    like a place to live.

    a car.

    filipinos only realize the difficulty of making it in the us when they get there--and see that there are no jeepneys providing rides for a few cents. america is a big place, and outside of new york city and san francisco, you'll need a car.

    this is where these agencies come in: they provide housing for the first few months, and they have a pool of people who can provide transportation.

    they provide a service.

    for a fee.

    (i'm not defending sentosa or the agencies, just trying to explain the situation as the culture is very different.)

    there are a lot of filipino nurses in the us who have signed up with these agencies, as they are their only route to the us.

    they fulfill their end of the bargain, and walk as free men/women after 2 or 3 years, earning what other rns with their same level of skill and experience earn.

    the ugly side is that a lot of them have breached their contracts too. some news articles came out that there was a time that only 1 out of 100 nurses petitioned for the immigrant visa returned to the facility to finish her contract.

    the difference between the breaches of contract was that the previous ones were isolated incidents.

    this time it was coordinated.

    most of the news articles that came out regarding the sentosa case were skewed to portray the filipino nurses as the victims.

    were they the victims?

    i came across only 3 news articles that portrayed the sentosa side: the press release by sentosa on the case, the newsday article(http://www.newsday.com/news/printedi...-linews-print), and the article by a manila bulletin writer who had access to sentosa's papers (http://www.mb.com.ph/issues/2006/09/...91974869.html).

    to quote the manila bulletin writer ms. deedee siytangco, "however, when jacinto arrived in new york, he asked that he be allowed to "buy out his contract" from working in sentosacare facilities to work in a hospital."

    this showed that jacinto was scr*wing sentosa, he used sentosa to get his immigrant visa, and wanted to be released from his contract when he got to the us with his green card.

    note that there was no mention of workload or pay.

    quoting further: "this request was not granted since it would be violating the rules and regulations of his immigrant visa.

    besides, it would put sentosacare in a bad light as it would appear that they were bringing in nurses not for their facilities but for other purposes.

    after his request was denied, jacinto again asked to be transferred to another facility near a medical school so he could pursue further studies and eventually work as a doctor.

    this was granted (as with other similar requests by other nurses) but apparently this was not good enough for jacinto.

    he led the other nurses in his batch in "abandoning" their jobs, crying "harassment" about labor conditions, salaries etc., and suing sentosa."


    sentosa could not take this lying down. it would mean loss of time and money (they spent for the immigration fees, the plane fare, cgfns, nclex, board and lodging), and their projected staffing would be short.

    they would also lose the time and money they sent training these nurses to work with ventilators and children.

    training which another hospital or agency will make use of, instead of sentosa.

    (did anybody notice the plan to pursue medical studies and to eventually work as a doctor? this speaks volumes about jacinto's commitment to work as a nurse.)

    why would i want the guilty parties to be punished?

    because if sentosa really gets scr*wed, it would send a message to sentosa (and other agencies and hospitals that sponsor) that it would not be worth it to sponsor filipino rns, as they would stab you in the back.

    for full disclosure, i was supposed to be petitioned for an immigrant card by a ca hospital, but the hospital hr head changed her mind after 7 of their filipino rns--which they petitioned for immigrant visas, and had just completed their orientation--quit and moved on to better jobs.

    these 7 nurses scr*wed the hospital because they left after they got their immigrant visas and got their training, which included 6 months of experience in a us hospital. these served as their golden ticket to higher paying jobs at other hospitals.

    it left the petitioning hospital holding an empty bag.


    see the scenario?

    sentosa is not immaculate--it gets a large portion of an rn's pay for 2 to 3 years.

    but if you consider that without sentosa (or the other agencies), most filipino rns would not even be able to get to the us...then sentosa can be seen as a savior.

    the right to resign is a good concept, an ideal concept.

    if you have ideal employees.

    if you have people who have no qualms about exploiting this loophole, the agencies/hospitals get victimized, and will be used only to get immigrant visas.

    these agencies/hospitals will soon stop petitioning foreign rns for immigrant visas.

    and the other foreign nurses suffer.

    i hope this gives another perspective on this situation.

    thanks to the rns who are defending this group's right to resign--you are projecting your higher moral standards on this group.

    as i said, this time it might not be deserved.
  5. by   Gromit
    I am not defending them because they are foreign. TO ME, that does NOT play a role. Doesn't matter in the slightest. If you work in my country, then you are bound by my countries' laws and should be judged according to my countries' morals, values, etc etc. Thats the way it is -just as any of us would be subject to the same in any other country.
    AS I've stated, I do not agree with the manner in which they did it, but I stand by what I've said in their favor. I would say the same thing if their nationality were this one.
  6. by   Batman24
    If the nurses turned the patients over to nurses coming on for their shift then this isn't abandonment. If they all up and walked off during a shift then it would be, but this doesn't appear to be the case here.

    How did the center deal with this?! Did they go with a huge nursing shortage and for how long?! Did they call for help?! Did managers, supervisors, etc. with nursing degrees come in and take on patients?! How long did it take them to replace staff?! Did they leave patients in harm's way seems to be the bigger question here.

    Did they call agencies to cover?! If they couldn't find enough of them to cover did they then call other care facilities and hospitals to see if they can take them in?! Both of these options of couse would cost more money or cause them to lose money which no doubt infuriated the company.

    If the agency didn't pay O/T as required by law they could be in trouble here. I am sure this is a way for them to shift the blame for their own legal issues as if the allegations are true there are a few of them.

    This sounds like a smear campaign all done for the benefit of a jury pool. Sadly, it could work. I truly hope it doesn't as the nurses seem to be the truly injured party here. My hope is that Federal Law protects them in the end as it should.
    Last edit by Batman24 on Mar 27, '07
  7. by   Tweety
    Quote from Gromit
    I am not defending them because they are foreign. TO ME, that does NOT play a role. Doesn't matter in the slightest. If you work in my country, then you are bound by my countries' laws and should be judged according to my countries' morals, values, etc etc. Thats the way it is -just as any of us would be subject to the same in any other country.
    AS I've stated, I do not agree with the manner in which they did it, but I stand by what I've said in their favor. I would say the same thing if their nationality were this one.
    I agree. What's important to me is that they are nurses first and foremost which is where my support comes from. I can be convinced that they went about it the wrong way, but I support them 100% for taking action.
  8. by   Sheri257
    Quote from tweety
    what's important to me is that they are nurses first and foremost which is where my support comes from.
    huh?

    not all of these people were nurses first and foremost. did you read what pinoy_guy posted? at least some of them were filipino doctors who just became nurses so they could get here.

    they were using sentosa so they could eventually become doctors in the u.s. this was widely reported in the press long before the indictment came down.

    i think it's a big leap to say they were nurses first and foremost.

    everybody's defending them because they are "nurses." well ... it doesn't look to me like they were really interested in nursing at all ...

    it was merely a means to an end: i.e. becoming md's in the states.

    so before everybody rushes to the defense of their fellow nurses, you might want to ask ... if they really were committed to nursing at all.

    it sure doesn't look like it. read pinoy_guy's post and tell me if jacinto was a nurse, first and foremost. to wit:

    Quote from pinoy_guy
    to quote the manila bulletin writer ms. deedee siytangco, "however, when jacinto arrived in new york, he asked that he be allowed to "buy out his contract" from working in sentosacare facilities to work in a hospital."

    this showed that jacinto was scr*wing sentosa, he used sentosa to get his immigrant visa, and wanted to be released from his contract when he got to the us with his green card.

    note that there was no mention of workload or pay.

    quoting further: "this request was not granted since it would be violating the rules and regulations of his immigrant visa.

    besides, it would put sentosacare in a bad light as it would appear that they were bringing in nurses not for their facilities but for other purposes.

    after his request was denied, jacinto again asked to be transferred to another facility near a medical school so he could pursue further studies and eventually work as a doctor.

    this was granted (as with other similar requests by other nurses) but apparently this was not good enough for jacinto.

    he led the other nurses in his batch in "abandoning" their jobs, crying "harassment" about labor conditions, salaries etc., and suing sentosa."


    sentosa could not take this lying down. it would mean loss of time and money (they spent for the immigration fees, the plane fare, cgfns, nclex, board and lodging), and their projected staffing would be short.

    they would also lose the time and money they sent training these nurses to work with ventilators and children.

    training which another hospital or agency will make use of, instead of sentosa.

    (did anybody notice the plan to pursue medical studies and to eventually work as a doctor? this speaks volumes about jacinto's commitment to work as a nurse.)

    why would i want the guilty parties to be punished?

    because if sentosa really gets scr*wed, it would send a message to sentosa (and other agencies and hospitals that sponsor) that it would not be worth it to sponsor filipino rns, as they would stab you in the back.
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Mar 27, '07
  9. by   Tweety
    Lizz, we can agree to disagree. I didn't mean they were nurses in the Philippines, but that they are nurses now. That doesn't lessen my support.

    All Filipinos are using the system, MDs, Dentists, second coursers of all types (I've worked with several), whomever goes to nursing school and comes over here and uses whatever hospital or agency brings them over here is using the system for selfish gain, to put it bluntly. We have many whom have used my facility the same as this one and they are fine nurses, all of them, including the doctors and dentists I've worked with.
  10. by   Gromit
    People get into this field or come to this country for their own reasons. I don't care if you're primary education is that of a veterinarian -if you're working as a nurse, you're a nurse first and foremost. Just as if you're primary education were an RN, but you were working as an electrician -you would be an electrician first.
    Nationality should not play a role in this conversation.
    And I don't really care why they were here as nurses.

    One thing I WILL say, though, is that if my employer suddenly told me that I was going to have to work overtime hours, but not get paid overtime, they would see the tail-lights of my bike -and me on it- as a response. I love being a nurse, but I'm not working 'gratis' for ANYBODY -regardless of the circumstances.
    Last edit by Gromit on Mar 27, '07
  11. by   anthony123
    If the nurses from the next shift were in on this and it left the facility paralized then it would be really wrong. But from what Im reading they all left together and they were on the same shift so they must have had replacements. And to think all of them are filipino's and other nurses who left before them were not brought charges. Somethings up............
  12. by   Sheri257
    Quote from anthony123
    If the nurses from the next shift were in on this and it left the facility paralized then it would be really wrong. But from what Im reading they all left together and they were on the same shift so they must have had replacements.
    Actually ... they couldn't have all been working on the same shift. This is why I think the article is either misquoting the DA or is out of context because it doesn't make any sense.

    Many posters on this thread have assumed that all ten nurses were working days, finished their shift and resigned that Friday night ....

    However, the article also mentions that these nurses were complaining about not getting night differential pay. This was one of the issues in the employment dispute.

    People don't complain about night differentials unless they're working nights. If they were all working days then, night differentials would not be an issue.

    With 10 nurses resigning and complaining about night differentials at least some of them had to be working nights.

    This is also confirmed by the indictment, which says that ALL of the available nurses who were assigned almost exclusively to the respirator kids resigned that Friday night. Since all of the nurses resigned, it makes sense that some of them worked days, and some of them worked nights.

    And, the other nurses who were trained on respirators who could replace the nurses assigned to the respirator kids, also resigned. Presumably some of them worked days, and some worked nights.

    :typing
    Last edit by Sheri257 on Mar 28, '07
  13. by   banditrn
    Quote from Gromit
    Exactly. Thats why I'm saying that they have no real case. They feel the need to sway public opinion with false claims and gross exaggerations -this tells me that they cannot win on the merits of the case alone.
    Kind of reminds me of a certain prosecutor who was playing politics with the lives of certain lacrosse players -and playing very loose with the facts of his case...
    Absolutely, gromit - what I fear may come out of this is legally mandated notice required for nurses - and management somehow having the right to refuse a workers notice.

    Don't know all the facts in this case, but that place must have been a real crap-hole!

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