Article supports Canada's health care system - page 6

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  1. by   blue note
    I love the constant comparisons of health care to material things like cars and cell phones, as if they are interchangeable things.

    StNeotser

    How come people in cheaper housing get to use the police force just as much as I do? Hey, I've got a good idea, lets privatize the police and see how corrupt things can really get.

    How come my taxes pay for the Iraq war when I don't agree with it? Why are they taking the fruits of my labor?

    Squeal squeal - life isn't fair!
    Too true. I also had to laugh at the post about how the private sector can help the uninsured poor voluntarily. Sure, that must happen all the time in the land where unicorns frolic and the cure for cancer is chocolate.
    Last edit by sirI on May 22, '09
  2. by   blue note
    Quote from Agrippa
    It's sad that you don't even care "which system works better" and that you're only concerned about whether a miniscule portrion of your taxes is going to some idealized person who is supposedly "not earned it." Even if this is the case, I would rather have people who, as you say "havent earned it" in the system if that means that 100, 10, or even 1 additional child will have access to healthcare.

    Its so twisted that you're idea of justice is to deprive people who are sick and dying due to no fault of their own, just so you can take comfort in the idea that some indegent people or freeriders are punished.

    Furthermore, its seems that you have a rather simplistic idea of how a representative democracy works (representative being the operant word here). The majority of people in this country support universal healthcare. We voted voted for leaders who's idea coincide with these ideals into the House, the Senate, and the Executive office. We expect to see some big changes. We're kicking butt and taking names.
    You've said it better than I could. I find it even more twisted that people who work in health care, who see first hand, the suffering of the sick and dying, hold such views.

    However, I will say that I am less optimistic than you about whether big changes will actually come about. When even people who work in health care are so diametrically divided, it only means that the vested interests in the current broken system, like insurance companies and big Pharma, will be able to thwart any meaningful reform. There needs to be a much larger, and louder, groundswell for real reform before politicians will heed the voices of the people and not those who contribute to their campaign funds. I think that can happen, but we're not there yet if advocates for single payer are shut out of the reform discussions.
  3. by   drew9319
    love the quote about the conservatism. i would love for everyone to have healthcare who needs it. but that being said, we need to do it in a way that will not destroy our economy. what do we do with all of the people who work in insurance, phama, and the like. what happens to those jobs? what do we do then if those jobs are eliminated. we in the HC industry are pretty good right now, although we are also feeling the effects of the econmic slowdown. i think we could save billions in healthcare and pay for a majority of those w/o healthcare coverage if we removed the restrictions for introducing new drugs to the population. we take longer than anyother nation in the world to bring items to the market. we dont support alot of nontraditional medicine here either. alternative therapy and the like. so what do we do?
    Last edit by sirI on May 22, '09
  4. by   TomCCRN1991
    I didn't say I didn't care which system worked better, I said that for puposes of this discussion it was irrelevant. I'm not defending either system. We live in a Representative REPUBLIC, not a democracy. The founders puposely avoided a democracy to prevent, as Thomas Jefferson called it, "the tyranny of the majority." Which is what we are witnessing now. You must be the ones that Patrick Henry was talking about. You who feel that life is so dear and peace so sweet (and socialized medicine) that you would sell your freedom at the price of chains and slavery. The only people who will be denied health care will be those caught up in the rationing of services under socialized medicine because of your entitlement mentality.

    People try to argue that government isn’t really force. Try not paying your taxes. Government is force.

    It’s amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people yourself is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral self-righteous bullying laziness. People need to be fed, medicated, educated, clothed, and sheltered. If we’re compassionate, we’ll help them, but you get no moral credit for forcing other people to do what you think is right. There is great joy in helping people, but no joy in doing it at gunpoint.
    Last edit by sirI on May 22, '09
  5. by   Fiona59
    I enjoy my universal healthcare and I don't wear chains nor are am I enslaved.

    I've recieved prompt care in an emergency situation, never been told which doctor I had to see, and still own my home despite having had a major surgery and teenagers who went through a spell of living in the Emerg.
  6. by   Agrippa
    I didn't say I didn't care which system worked better, I said that for puposes of this discussion it was irrelevant.
    I'm not defending either system. We live in a Representative REPUBLIC, not a democracy. The founders puposely avoided a democracy to prevent, as Thomas Jefferson called it, "the tyranny of the majority." Which is what we are witnessing now.
    Yes, we live in a representative republic democracy. Representative being the important word here, as in we vote for representatives instead of a "popular" democracy where the simple majority rules on issues much like a referendum. The word you were looking for is popular, not "republic".

    You must be the ones that Patrick Henry was talking about. You who feel that life is so dear and peace so sweet (and socialized medicine) that you would sell your freedom at the price of chains and slavery. The only people who will be denied health care will be those caught up in the rationing of services under socialized medicine because of your entitlement mentality.

    People try to argue that government isn’t really force. Try not paying your taxes. Government is force.
    yes because me supporting a single payer healthcare system will mean me giving up all my other rights and ripping up the constitution.

    It’s amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people yourself is compassion.
    You need to have a large cohort of sick and healthy people for it to work. This will also maximize the efficency of care. If helping poor and suffering people is compassionate as you say, then helping more suffering people, better, for cheaper is more desirable.

    Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral self-righteous bullying laziness.
    I mean seriously, it is truely frightening that there are people like this who have such a confrontational, apocolyptic , "its me against the world" view of society. Who are these people using guns to give money to poor and suffering people?
    Last edit by sirI on May 22, '09
  7. by   blue note
    Princeton economics professor Uwe Reinhardt explains "What is socialized medicine?" and why some people confuse "socialized medicine," with "social health insurance."

    He also compares the US and Canadian health care systems here - a thoughtful and informative must-read article!

    [on health insurance administration costs]
    Uwe Reinhardt: Well, I once did a dumb thing: I asked an insurance executive “What do you pay in New Jersey for a colonoscopy?”

    And he just laughed at me and said, “What a silly question. There is no price for a colonoscopy. We have a different price for every hospital. And for the same hospital, we might have six prices depending on the insurance product, is it an HMO, etc.”

    So I said, “This is mad. How many could there be?”

    He says, “There could be 30, 40 for us, but then with Aetna, they could have another 30, and everyone has a different contract, so a hospital might receive 60, 80,100 different prices for a colonoscopy, depending on which insurance company and what contract it is. So when you say ‘What are the private market prices?’ there is no price.”

    And I said, “Well how, when you have consumer-directed health care, where people are supposed to shop around, what are you going to tell them?”

    And he said, “We can’t, really. What would you tell them?”

    There is no real price, and every price has been negotiated and haggled over. So imagine what it costs compared to a system where a government negotiates with a physician association. Here’s the fee schedule, and that’s it, and everyone uses the same fee schedule. You can put that into a computer. You have a little card like an American Express card. The price list is already there. You swipe it through, the doctor keys what he or she did and here’s your bill. Well here you have to look at what contract was it and the coding turns out to be wrong, and the bill isn’t clean.
    Last edit by sirI on May 22, '09
  8. by   Agrippa
    This is a fantastic and enlightening article. Thanks for the post!
  9. by   All4Seasons
    The OP says, "Canadian medicine does not have med-flight as we do here. No helicopters to sit down and lift off to the hospital within a matter of minutes. How well do you suppose RN's will be paid?"

    I am a Canadian RN who is wondering where on earth you get your information?...

    You'd be hard pressed to find a single major Canadian hospital which doesn't have a helicopter pad...there are two here within 6 blocks of each other.

    All health care systems have their weaknesses...yours is no different,nor is mine. I am proud of the health care we provide in this country. The biggest problem we have here are longer wait lists in some specialties than we'd like. No one denies that. However,every provincial government posts, online, the regularly updated wait times for each specialty in every area of their province. If you see a shorter wait time in another part of the province,you are welcome to have your surgery there.This is just one of the creative ideas which are being used to fine tune our system.

    I have worked in three major health centres in two different provinces,one in the west,the other on the east coast over the past 28+ years. If you are on a surgical wait list and your status worsens...you go straight to the top of the list - people do not routinely die while awaiting surgery here. Striving to be better will never end. There are hundreds of thousands of people within the Canadian healthcare system dedicated to providing the very best care to our sick and injured. I would never want a different healthcare model.

    We are incredibly fortunate to have Universal Healthcare here in Canada - accessible to ALL.... rich or poor.

    By the way,it is ironic that you suppose RNs here are not well paid...this past year I met,here at AllNurses.com,an RN who was in the process of emigrating to Canada with her husband - she now works at my hospital,which is a major,tertiary care health sciences centre, and was very pleasantly surprised to find her pay was going to be substantially higher than the one she received in Maine. My call shifts are paid at more than $70/hr...myself,I think that's rather good...
  10. by   Agrippa
    Thank you for enlightening us on the Canadian system. There is a lot of misinformation that is circulated by the private healthcare lobby in our country, much of it espousing how much Canadians don't like their system.
  11. by   Tessaprn
    I do agree that it is my doctor's responsibility to decide on my course of treatment and not a private insurance or the government controlled covered. For every one example of excellent care with the one payer (government funded) you can find one with private insurance that have excellent results. It is the one's that do not have that excellent outcome because for whatever reason the one payer decides my problem can wait weeks or months to be addressed. You cannot deny that wait periods exist with the one-payer system (government). I do not wish to have the one-payer system I'm happy with my private. I'm more then willing to have these benefits taxed if it is to be used so that those without can be treated. I do not want any government running my life and deciding what can and cannot wait.

    To state that I can buy supplemental insurance for those services that are not available with the one-payer system is offensive to me. I am already paying for my insurance and now my government wants me to pay for everyone else's.

    The United States has the greatest medical services available in the world. It has that sorry negative side of being expensive. Doctors do not wish to accept the Medicaid/Medicare patient because the way the government wants to reimburse, which most times is low below their norm.
  12. by   Tessaprn
    You are comparing bariatric surgery to hip surgery. Here you are deciding yourself which is more deserving. This is what a one-payer system does. That is the point. One-payer will do the deciding. I do not wish to have any part of someone besides my doctor to say what I can have and cannot.
  13. by   Multicollinearity
    Quote from Tessaprn
    You are comparing bariatric surgery to hip surgery. Here you are deciding yourself which is more deserving. This is what a one-payer system does. That is the point. One-payer will do the deciding. I do not wish to have any part of someone besides my doctor to say what I can have and cannot.
    Private health insurance already tells you who you can see and if they'll pay for your treatment or not.

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