After third try, 60 students to graduate from ASU nursing - Natchez Democrat - page 2

after third try, 60 students to graduate from asu nursing natchez democrat, ms - 22 minutes ago “of those, 34 are associate degree nurses, and 26 are bachelor of science nurses,” he said. students... Read More

  1. by   Treasure30
    Good Morning,
    To MSDOBSON, I think there is a lot of factors need to be examine, before we kick out potential NURSES. Yes, it maybe the instructors or the students, not applying themselves.
    I have worked with doctors & nurses who could pass a test, teach a class, Yet did not know how to apply what they knew. Could not function, could not assess, could not implement or plan. Just could not function.
    Did not know the 1st thing to do if a pt had a elevated temperature. Did not know what to do if the pt woke up disoriented & was not disoriented the day before. Did not know what to do if a pt started profusely sweating. Anyway, Give me a nurse who can function. Do I care if she failed 2 of her / his test previously. He / She have passed at some time, in order to care in the capacity of an RN (be it ADN or BSN). But still, give me someone who can function & know how to make some decisions, can critical think, can apply what they learned.
    Maybe, I'm a little sensitive about test. I am a damn good nurse even when I was a nurse assistant, I was told. But those damn test in college, they just did something to me. I did pass my NCLEX the 1st time.
    Treasure
  2. by   Treasure30
    Good Morning,
    I think my message should have been to 'X CPASTIE' instead of 'MSDOBSON'.
    Treasure
  3. by   Ex130Load
    Quote from x_coastie
    Good thing in the hospital nurses have three chances to administer the correct drug/dose without any ill effects.
    /sarcasm

    Honestly, would you want a nurse taking care of you and stating "I only flunked my test two times?"
    To me, basing a nursing skills assessment strictly on the number of attempts to pass HESI or NCLEX is elitist and ignorant. I think a more indicative assessment is based on proficiency and knowledge. I am sure more than one "fine" nurse had a rough start though I couldn't begin to quantify my belief. There are minimum standards for a reason; the sharpest knife in the drawer is not always the best tool. How many of them are there in the first place? Is nursing fully manned with all the sharp knives needed? I fully realize some of the minimum standards folks have room for improvement and may perpetually be on a learning curve, but that is not my point. My bone of contention is blanketing all as substandard if needing more than one attempt to pass.

    I remember several classmates ranking top academically and never stumbling on any tests--midterms, finals, HESI, and presumably NCLEX. Within that group, some profoundly lacked interpersonal skills and common sense and while others already were displaying haughtiness and the "holier than thow" attitude because they perceived themselves to be of superior intelligence. In my mind, the last type mentioned demonstrated great potential in becoming the institutional nurse or manager "from hell" that posters mention periodically. I also remember another who cheated with a passion, not she herself per se, but by letting a former roommate and friend copy her tests. That says volumes about integrity and honesty--who benefits by those behaviors?

    I encourage x_coastie to re-think his/her perspective regarding assumptions based on the number of test attempts. I do this as a military retiree who supervised two squadrons as top guy on the food chain in my career field. I’ve seen plenty of guys/girls come through my squadrons who according to academic records and initial interaction appeared to be dumber that the proverbial box of rocks. With time and experience, several moved into standards/evaluations sections (quality control for non-military types). Others didn’t, never will, but are solid, basic performers which every institution needs and without whom couldn’t function because there are not enough of the type x_coastie presumably desires.
    Last edit by Ex130Load on May 17, '07
  4. by   Pam I Am RN
    I don't think that anybody is insulting those who have to try harder to pass. I think, and I could be wrong, that at one time it was much more difficult to get into competitive nursing programs and only top students made it in. However do to the recent nursing shortage I think many schools have lowered their entrance requirements and many marginally qualified and students are getting in.

    Treasure, the NCLEX tests doesn't test only knowledge which requires nothing more than memorization but critical thinking skills and how they would be applied which are essential to competent nursing. If a potential nurse cannot demonstrate competency on the NCLEX I seriously doubt she will be competent on the floor. That's why there is a minimum standard test in the first place.

    EX130 Load; you can teach a monkey to put in a catheter but not why or when one is necessary. While proficiency is important it's not the most important thing. Knowledge is indeed important but you can memorize tons of facts and figures but not know how to apply that information hence the critical thinking testing in the NCLEX.

    Think about this: would you want a Dr operating on you that had to take his test 3 or more times?! I wouldn't.
  5. by   subee
    Quote from Pam I Am RN
    I don't think that anybody is insulting those who have to try harder to pass. I think, and I could be wrong, that at one time it was much more difficult to get into competitive nursing programs and only top students made it in. However do to the recent nursing shortage I think many schools have lowered their entrance requirements and many marginally qualified and students are getting in.

    Treasure, the NCLEX tests doesn't test only knowledge which requires nothing more than memorization but critical thinking skills and how they would be applied which are essential to competent nursing. If a potential nurse cannot demonstrate competency on the NCLEX I seriously doubt she will be competent on the floor. That's why there is a minimum standard test in the first place.

    EX130 Load; you can teach a monkey to put in a catheter but not why or when one is necessary. While proficiency is important it's not the most important thing. Knowledge is indeed important but you can memorize tons of facts and figures but not know how to apply that information hence the critical thinking testing in the NCLEX.

    Think about this: would you want a Dr operating on you that had to take his test 3 or more times?! I wouldn't.
    Would you want to drive across a bridge or ride in an elevator designed by someone who passed the third time? Come one - how lenient do we have to be ? At some point in the process, the wheat has to be separated from the chaff. Using the logic that test taking skills don't lead to clinical skills logically implies that people who flunk tests will become great practitioners.
  6. by   msdobson
    Quote from Treasure30
    Good Morning,
    I think my message should have been to 'X CPASTIE' instead of 'MSDOBSON'.
    Treasure
    Right. :wink2: Ya had me confused there for a minute.
  7. by   msdobson
    My lack of knowledge of the NCLEX exam is absolute, so I will refrain from making comments in that direction.

    However, I HAVE taken MANY "entrance" exams for various fields including positions with the county, state and federal government, the police and sheriff departments and MANY colleges and universities.

    I, personally, found them to be insultingly easy.

    English? Reading Comprehension? Math Skills? All were VERY basic. So basic that any mid-school student should be able to take them and score reasonably well.

    But, THAT is beside the point for my initial comments here, and the direction of the initial remarks.

    I have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING against foreign nurses. I believe that nurse from all parts of the world deserve the same chance at working in America as I do working in all parts of the rest of the world.

    The problem, as I see it, is with comprehension. A nurse who cannot FULLY understand the language cannot FULLY participate in the type of team care that is prevalent in the U.S. healthcare system.

    I, myself, would LOVE to someday work in Paris. Do I expect to? Of course not...THEY SPEAK FRENCH. I can't speak a lick of it, nor would I understand the various dialects. What are the French words for milligrams...milliliters...micrograms?

    Even if I were to learn them, would I freeze in the middle of an emergency situation, trying like crazy to remember if the word I was reading was for micrograms OR milligrams? When I worked as an NA, then a CNA in California's long-term healthcare system, I worked with many VERY hard working people here from other countries. In no way can I fault them for their job. They worked hard and NEVER complained.

    HOWEVER, there were MANY a time where I was present as the LPN or RN was explaining a difficult concept, and they nodded their understanding along with the rest of us, but you could read in their eyes that the hadn't a clue what was being said, and proved it later on when I had to stop them from doing what the LPN/RN JUST TOLD US NOT TO DO.

    THAT is my problem with nursing student who DO NOT speak English.

    Let the flaming being...I've got my asbestos helmet out.
  8. by   Ex130Load
    Pam I Am RN--Your points are valid regarding my comments. Knowledge and proficiency are more effective tools by which to judge a nurse's effectiveness, but by far not the only ones. I simply maintain they in themselves would be much better than to use how many times nurses underwent NCLEX.

    Would I want a doctor operating on me that had to take his test three or more times? Right out of med school? No, I wouldn’t, but ten years down the road? That potentially is wholly new issue.

    Subee—I know for a fact that at my school and several others nearby, acceptance into a nursing class is now more difficult. 2.5 GPAs aren’t accepted as they were during my class and the application pools have doubled in size or more. The last time I looked at my school's website, 2.5s still are the minimum acceptable, but it is not currently realistic to expect acceptance in face of a dramatically larger number or 3.0s and higher also applying. The grapevine at my school claimed 3.3 or so was the lowest GPA admitted this year with over 400 applying compared to 150ish when I entered.

    Would I want to drive across a bridge or ride in an elevator designed by someone who passed the third time? This line follows X_coastie’s logic that to test more than once strongly predicts an eternal substandard level of performance. I reiterate that’s not an absolute, that individuals can overcome rocky starts—nothing more. I maintain I want to evaluate where that individual is with a year or several years of experience under the belt. I would judge the individual based upon where he/she is on his/her progression job/career timeline and couldn’t give a tinker’s damn about how many times he tested NCLEX. There is not an absolute correlation between the number of times NCLEXing and one’s nursing abilities. Yes, it could be a good indicator or likely results, but that’s all. That might be something I would give greater weight considering if such an individual was going to work at my hospital and I wanted to tailor my internship or training program to help the trainee to best achieve maximum potential. Again, and I starting “to beat a dead horse,” that is separate from gauging how effective a nurse is. I did not say that test taking skills lead to clinical skills and logically implies that people who flunk tests will become great practitioners—only that some can...

    msdobson also has a valid point regarding language comprehension and how lack of it can lead to serious consequences. I do not see it as a “flame issue.” If one is not completely fluent in a language, misunderstanding is realistic possibility—an undeniable and inalterable fact in my view.

    Please keep in mind that within some cultures, most notably Asian, it is a norm to nod one’s head during a discussion even though the individual is clueless regarding comprehension. It may only mean the individual is devoting attention to the speaker, not comprehending. When stationed in Japan, I quickly learned to ask follow-up questions when in doubt or unsure.
  9. by   Treasure30
    Good Evening,
    When I read some of these threads, I have to remind myself, we are come from different environments with different views. I believe Ex130Load worded it very well with both of the threads. Very wise. I thought about some of the other analogues that were written, 'you can teach a monkey' & 'would I drive across a bridge' or 'ride in an elevator, knowing someone fail some test'. Give me experience & critical thinking skills. Well lets look at some of these buildings & elevators, doctors & lets see if you can really teach that monkey how to do nursing procedures. Be it I'm a nurse who pass the 1st, 2nd or 3rd time, I WOULD NEVER COMPARE A NURSES' SKILL TO A MONKEY, not even in a joke. But we all come with different values & standard.
    Treasure
  10. by   Treasure30
    Good Evening,
    Subee, I'm not sure how much experience or exposure you have, but yes, some people who fail test become great practitioners. And some who pass test, can't apply what they learned, they do get expose eventually. Lots of time the exposure isn't kind. Oh, do some history on some great people, try President John Kennedy, Colonel Powell, & even the great Dr. Einstein.
    Treasure
  11. by   subee
    Quote from Treasure30
    Good Evening,
    Subee, I'm not sure how much experience or exposure you have, but yes, some people who fail test become great practitioners. And some who pass test, can't apply what they learned, they do get expose eventually. Lots of time the exposure isn't kind. Oh, do some history on some great people, try President John Kennedy, Colonel Powell, & even the great Dr. Einstein.
    Treasure
    Hi Treasure - 35 years experience here. I'm not sure of the logic of your post here. We all know there are lousy testers and there are language barriers everywhere. I worked with a terrific nurse in Brooklyn who spoke several languages. Unfortunately, English wasn't one of them and she had a tough time with the Boards but eventually passed. There is, however, a big test that must be passed at the end of schooling. To collect tuition from a student knowing that they are failing all indicators that they will pass their final boards, is unethical because the school is collecting tuition from a student that for whatever reason has indicated on previous testing that they're very likely not going to make it. That Dr. Einstein was dyslexic has nothing to do with this argument - he never had to take the boards. Now, if you would like to donate your salary to needy students who test poorly and support them the extra years of schooling they'll need to make the cut, please feel free to pay for it. On the public dime, however, please pick students that can get in and out of school on time. I graduated from an undergrad program with a low pass rate and it was devastating to the students who couldn't make it. They should have been herded earlier on in their college career to something they could pass.
  12. by   msdobson
    Quote from subee
    Hi Treasure - 35 years experience here. I'm not sure of the logic of your post here. We all know there are lousy testers and there are language barriers everywhere. I worked with a terrific nurse in Brooklyn who spoke several languages. Unfortunately, English wasn't one of them and she had a tough time with the Boards but eventually passed. There is, however, a big test that must be passed at the end of schooling. To collect tuition from a student knowing that they are failing all indicators that they will pass their final boards, is unethical because the school is collecting tuition from a student that for whatever reason has indicated on previous testing that they're very likely not going to make it. That Dr. Einstein was dyslexic has nothing to do with this argument - he never had to take the boards. Now, if you would like to donate your salary to needy students who test poorly and support them the extra years of schooling they'll need to make the cut, please feel free to pay for it. On the public dime, however, please pick students that can get in and out of school on time. I graduated from an undergrad program with a low pass rate and it was devastating to the students who couldn't make it. They should have been herded earlier on in their college career to something they could pass.
    :yeahthat: Said it better than I did...
  13. by   Treasure30
    Good Morning Subee,
    You've been a RN for 35 yrs, I think that's wonderful.

    You start off by stating, "You're not sure of the logic of my post". TEST, TEST, TEST. I merely stated earlier, what are the reasons WHY, WHY, WHY are they failing. What's illogical about wondering if a language barriers played a factor. My post were merely comments from the threads, merely comments. We have different views. You bring up a good point as far as finances & collecting tuition. Good point. However, Do they really know if they will pass the FINAL TEST. I had people that think like you, throughout college advised me to change my major. They kept telling me 'I would not pass the NCLEX'. They were wrong, I pass the NCLEX the 1st time.

    You didn't mention Colonel Powell or President Kennedy.
    The 'bridge', you made that statement & comparison to test. My comments again were, who's making some of the structure, some of these elevator these days, people that aren't passing test,:uhoh21: :uhoh21: :uhoh21:
    It's wonderful, you've been a RN for 35 yrs, just wonderful.
    Treasure

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