What happens if we DON'T recommend nursing as a career?

rncountry · Oct 4, 2000

nursedude, do you have stats oor other information that you utilize in your business, if so I would be interested in what you have. I don't believe it is too late, I fully believe that can't never did anything. If enough nurses want to effect change I believe it will occur. If it is too late, than why do you still come to this board? Why not fully turn your back on nursing and the health care field, that would truly be the easiest route, would it not? Yet you come here, your posts contain a passion for the injustices we all suffer, pay and other things, you care enough about the patient to open an advocacy business, so if it is too late than why bother? Think business for a minute. If you were to become more involved what do you think that could do for your business? Networking with other health care professionals, nursing or otherwise may result in an increase in your business. You said in another post that business was not going so well. What do you have to show potential customers? That you were an active nurse and understands what is going on? Or do you have information that backs up what you are saying, are you in contact with other more experienced advocacy groups that can point customers to you? Can you point to groups you may be affilated with and let your potential customers realize how well informed you are? If you truly believe that nurse cannot affect change, that it is too late for nursing than how do you expect your business to grow? If you are unwilling to believe that change can be affected than what do you say as a businessman to your customers? I know it sucks and this is why is sucks, but don't expect it to change? Who is going to pay for that? Nursedude, I wish you the best of luck with your business, I truly do, it takes guts and drive to even try, knowing it may fail. I applaud you for taking those steps, what I don't understand is how you can have an advocacy business and not want to be involved in a bigger way, if for nothing else than the increase in business it is likely to bring you. I do enjoy your postings because you say what many think, but few are willing to voice, and I am sure you do a good job for the customers that you have. If you are not doing the amount of business that you want though, it is not because nobody wants to hear it, but because you are not willing to reach out to others that may be willing to help you be successful. Don't make everyone your enemy, there are others out there that feel the way you do and would be good to help you grow your business. If enough people are willing to make the million nurse march happen and you participated in it, do you not think that would help be an effective form of advertisement? Not only would you have what information etc... that you utilize now, but you would have the ability to say I have more knowledge,more information that I have brought back to offer you, my customer, I am committed to the cause of advocating for YOU.

Just some thoughts, I may be off base, but I would love to see a posting from you bragging about how much money you are making to be a patient advocate. Because nurses do deserve to be paid what they are worth, nurses do deserve to have respect, both of which you would gain with a successful business. I do not actively nurse, but I will always be a nurse. Sounds like you will too. Much luck with your business, you are a strong advocate, and from what I have read I would go to you if I had a problem, what I am saying is take it to the next level. A year from now I hope to hear you are wildly successful, making what you deserve to make.

nursedude · Oct 4, 2000

rncountry,

My business is a partnership. Myself, another RN and a lawyer. The business is 1 1/2 years old. We initially planned to become incorporated but have found that we will most likely dissolve the business. Why?

The reason why is the same reason why healthcare is going down the tubes... People either don't care or they don't want to pay for it...The people that really do need help really can't afford it and unfortunately we can't operate a business without revenue.

I have one last idea for "the business" and if it doesn't look like it'll work we are going to give it the axe.

As far as my feeling about it being too late for nursing- Sorry but I'm not changing on my position on that.

pickledpepperRN · Oct 4, 2000

NURSING IS WORTH SAVING! You can start by going to the MNM site.

I've had the priviledge of helping with birth, death, and crisis in life. Most nurses are kind interesting people. Along with family the nurses in my life have enriched it. I cherish the hugs I've received, many this century.

I truly believe if we use the passion for people and educate the public we can improve the horrible staffing and lack of respect for our work the "sick care non-system" has created for profit.

If we can take care of our patients as we know how many (maybe even NurseDude) will come back.

The facilities need to learn a staff nurse is the most indispensable asset. Why should registry and travelers make more? How about retention bonuses with the sign ons? (I've worked registry and know it is not fair for me to make more than staff who must act as resource for me! When the charge RN makes less than registry it is bad for the facility as well as retention. Registry choose their schedule and don't have to do mandatory overtime!

OK let's do it!

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[This message has been edited by spacenurse (edited October 04, 2000).]

Mijourney · Oct 4, 2000

Hi posters. I do agree with nursedude's comment regarding nursing services being part of general revenue. Another poster, perhaps not under this topic, alluded to the fact that nursing services are part of room and board. I found this out prior to leaving the hospital scene. With one or two exceptions for me, it's been my experience that your nursing education is not factored into this equation, although I feel I also should be compensated for my BSN and certifications (I come from a proud diploma background). That's why I also agree with nursedude's comment regarding his services being used by the administration and insurers-I've been applying the term exploitation. However, I do think there is hope for nursing. For my part and within my time constraints, I have made various communications with my local, state, and federal legislators as well as others. I have also had the occasion to attend some meetings in my state capitol. I think that nursing will end up being redefined in some way, and we're seeing some of that now with the different techs that are being used in bedside care. The aging population still demands and will demand some type of nursing service. The ball is in our corner in terms of how we allow ourselves to be defined or how we define ourselves. The ball is also in the corner of the government, insurers, AHA, AMA, and the like on how supportive they will be of our efforts. I feel the public will ultimately hold these groups accountable if quality nursing care continues to slide. I applaud those of us who willing to work on setting up some type of group activism whether large scale or small scale.

rncountry · Oct 5, 2000

good luck nursedude, I wish you the best in your business and hope you are successful.

I also look forward to continuing to read your posts, you often make me laugh outloud because you point out the absurdity so well most of the time. Keep me posted on your business will you?

flaBSN · Oct 5, 2000

Nursedude, You hit the nail on the head! Now for the reply to Sonnie for admonishing the BSN grad. You question the validity of the BSN; however, many think the BSN should be the minimum Ed. for licensure and I agree.

Can't you figure it out for yourself that this is one of the reasons we don't get paid as professionals. What other "Professions" in the academic sense of the word allow people to practice with less than a BS/BA etc. I don't care if you can do your job, a lot of people can count money but they can't be licensed as a CPA. With an AS you could only be a bookkeeper and there is significant differences in income as there well should be. This also effects the respect that we get from other Professionals.

As far as tests go, the exam tests for minimum level of competence in different clinical areas. With the ADN you do not get community health nursing or biophysical crisis and the level of theory and interdiscplinary study is much less if any at all. So when the MBA that is the CFO knows he can hire people with less than a Bachelors degree, he also knows he can use that as an intrinsic factor to pay less money across the board. So, nursing, like other professions, needs to eliminate the overlap in educational requirments for licensure and make the BSN the minimum. As for all you nurses who think asking for money is in some way disrespectful to the profession, you need to be the patient, not the provider. If you want to do something for nothing, join the peace corps and quit making it harder for everyone else to get a raise. And just for some things you can't do with an ADN; an active duty officer in the Armed Forces, work for the Govt., take most of the certification exams these days and many less in the future.

Originally posted by sonnie:
JenBSN,
How can you say that your education is better or more advanced when you take the same licencing tests with the same questions as ADNs? I have worked with and trained ADNs, BSNs, and Diploma nurses. BSN graduates generally to concerned about the social aspects of patient care while the ADN, and Diploma nurses are busy actually taking care of the patient. Skill wise BSN grads are lost, it normally takes them 3-6 months of extra orientation to be effective on the floor. This I attribute to the lack of clinical experience combined with the demographics of who actually goes to what type of school. Most of what you are saying is a parroting of organizations who strive to beat down nurses by turning them against one another. Historically BSNs have had the lowest of the NCLEX scores. (NCLEX WEB SITE)As long as we all take the same boards and ADNs and Diploma nurses pass more frequently and with higher scores than our BSN collegues then I will consider us all equal and base the competency of each nurse on his/her actions.
sonnie

JenBSN · Oct 5, 2000

Sonnie-

I definatley sense some hostility towards BSN's in your reply. Do you feel you have to degrade BSN because they possible have a better education than you? Or maybe you feel threatned by the fact that BSN nurses are starting to be in demand and in some hosptials the words "BSN perferred" is becoming more common in job listings! As far as BSN's not working hard on the floor, I would like you to know that where I work, we have lazy Diploma, ADN, and BSN nurses. So I take to vaidity in your statement. I am sorry if I offended you, that truely was not my intention. And never once did I state that I was "better" than ADN's, that is a ignorant comment to make. The point I was trying to get across, which you obviously missed, is that Nurses on a whole (cna,lpn, diploma, bsn, etc) will never get the respect and money we all deserve. We all deserve to be paid more money. And yes, I do deserve more money if I have taken the time to better my education. Just as ARNP's make more than BSN's-they have more school. This is not personal, it's business. Nursing at the bedside is personal, nursing via politcs is business. That is why nursing has gotten to where it is, because on the business side of it all, we take things way to personally. If you need further explanation, the reply above describes the differences well.

ShannonB25 · Oct 5, 2000

I happen to agree with the post by JenBSN and the above post related to BSN nurses. I mean, let's face it, on the NCLEX the differences are negligible in terms of who scores what so that really isn't much of a leg to stand on (not to mention that it is one test of minimum competency only and not the measure of the quality of nurses graduating). I have read some excellent posts as well as articles regarding this subject. One of the articles related nursing to teaching and how teachers have to go through four years of school plus a one year internship before teaching. Don't you think that as nurses we should have at least that much education? I mean, we are dealing with all of the roles that encompass nursing- from teacher to counselor to advocate, the list goes on and on. Since we are dealing with people's lives here, most importantly, don't you think going to school for four years is worth it as an investment? True, it might be a little more difficult but personally I feel that the investment of an additional year (which is what most ADN nurses claim is the only difference in BSN and ADN nursing anyway) is well worth it. If we want to have a better chance at increasing wages for RN's everywhere then a BSN should be the minimum educational level for entry. I mean, come on, let's all get on the same page at least.

rncountry · Oct 5, 2000

Jen, I think that the idea of nursing having one type of degree is an admirable idea, however between school and active nursing I have been doing this for 12 years, and back when I first started school they were saying the same thing. In twelve years the same conversations keep taking place. I think the point is this, an ADN nurse works alongside the BSN nurse and the diploma nurse, all of whom are given the same expectations and all of whom take care of the same patient population on any given floor. There are good and bad nurses in all of these groups, some of that related to personality as much as education level. What angers ADN nurses, like myself, is for a BSN nurse to behave as if she has all the answers and knows so much more than the ADN nurse. Experience and time on the floor does count for something. I worked with diploma nurses that had to learn latin, I didn't have to do that, does that make me a better or worse nurse because I can't speak latin? Somehow I don't think the patient I am taking care of it going to care. How would you suggest that all nurses attain a BSN? What about the single mothers out there that is simply unable to fit anything more into her already busy life? How about the diploma nurse that has worked for 30 years, should she be required to get a BSN? With the amount of nurses that have left the career field, and the lack of staffing in areas throughout the country do you think that admin. is going to help arrange schedules so people can go on in school? A person does not need a 4 year degree to be able to be a professional person, in an academic way perhaps, but when we become too academic we do not do a service to the patient nor ourselves. The ANA has been pushing for all BSN staffing for years, stating that is what makes a person a professional and that is the only way that nurses will get the pay and respect the deserve. In the meantime that group has not made a concentrated effort to deal with the bottom line issues in nursing, the things that effect all nurses regardless of degree, they have however, been very good at creating a divisiveness between nurses, with the one degree or another issue. To think that you must have a 4 year degree to be considered a professional makes enemies inside the very group you are trying to convince. What does this serve? Are policemen considered professionals? How about firemen or the EMT? If you are in an accident the first person on the scene is likely to one of those three, are you going to worry whether any of them have a 4 year degree so that you are treated like a professional? I have a brother in law that is a fireman in Florida, he does not have a 4 year degree, yet he makes substancially more than I do, Why? It certainly does not have anything to do with a degree. Policemen throughout the country serve their communities without a 4 year degree. The difference between these career fields and ours is that fireman stick together, policemen stick together, and very tightly. They have a job that can trun deadly in an instant and they rely on one another, nurses instead tear each other apart, whether it is the same old BSN vs. ADN augument or whether it is dumping on the new grad, or simply how one nurse gave report. Nurses have far more in common with the firemen, cops and EMTs than we do to CPAs, lawyers and engineers, so why act like our career field is like that CPAs? Firemen and cops have many different degreed people in their field, and each has a place in their field, why can nursing not be the same way? I don't care if you have a BSN, diploma or ADN, if you do the same job, with the same responsibilities with the same risks of picking up a deadly disease then you should make the same pay, climb the career ladder to make more money, and if that requires a BSN than you have a jump on others seeking the same thing. But that gives the nurses who do not want to go into management the option of not having to attain that degree. If it takes a 4 year degree to do direct patient care than tell me why the NCLEX is the same for you and for me, whether it is a minimum requirement or not. Without it you do not practice, period.

I wouldn't say that was a minimum, it is what is necessay to practice. If you want a minimum then that would be an aides class that is task oriented, not judgement related.

All nurses deserve a rate of pay that reflects what we do every day, with the responsiblities of what we do reflected, however it does nothing but create bad feeling when a BSN feels that she deserves to be paid better simply based on degree, not performance.

nursedude · Oct 5, 2000

I just can't resist...

I'm a guy so I think I ought to be paid more than a female RN...?

Look ladies, you are squabbling over non-sense...BSN, ADN, MSN bla, bla bla. Don't you freaking get it? There are garbage men, plumbers and drywall hangers that make more than all of you!!! For crying out loud, the guy who changes the oil and filter in your car probably does better financially than a lot of RN's regardless of whether or not the RN has a degree!

The CEO at the last insurance company that I worked for ONLY HAD a bachelors degree and guess what? His degree wasn't in healthcare or even business! He had a BS in education and he was running a multi-billion operation! Meanwhile, out in the trenches, there where folks with masters degrees and bachelor degrees and MD's who all made a fraction of what he did...

Don't you girls get it? It's not about what piece of paper you have - It's more about the set of doodads between the legs of the majority of the workers in any given profession.

As stated elswhere on this board, nursing has traditionally been a womans profession and therefore, nurses have been paid like, well...women. The current salaries earned by nurses are what they are most likely because of the fact that nursing is a thankless profession and therefore there has never been an oversupply of nurses. The current shortage of nurses is nothing new really- I honestly can't recall ever having "too many nurses" working in any of my hospital jobs- can you?

I know I will have stepped on a few toes with thess statements but at least I didn't do it wearing high heels!!!

rncountry · Oct 6, 2000

nursedude, lmao! I know what GM and Fisher body workers make, I live near Lansing, my father-in-law recently retired from GM. Yes, there are career fields that make much more than nursing, is it right? No. Is it likely related to it being a women dominated field, yes. However, get enough pissed off, pissed on women and you have a formidible force. Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned! And we have been scorned, not by a lover, but by an entire system. Maybe your post will shake up enough women nurses to make them see that, after they calm down from "your sexist attitude" hahahaha. Last I knew women made 70 cents for every dollar a man made. Think about that when you post a reply guys. We all need to stick together regardless of degree. For a BSN to feel that she should be paid better upsets me. Not because I don't believe that the degree means nothing, but because if you work the floor then you do the same thing that other degreed nurses do, same work, same pay. We also have to realize though, that there are RN's, particularly in the south, that are starting out at $12-13 an hour and that is a crock, no matter what type of degree you have. To me that means we must all work together to make it right, not stand up and say I deserve to be paid more because I have a BSN and forget about your fellow nurses that work just as hard as you do.

lita1857 · Oct 6, 2000

Well where does one start...yikes so much has been written.Just for the record sonnie I did try the activist role,you name it commitee's/organizations/writing politicians/clinical ladder blah blah...never could make a difference.At first I took your words of "can't be trusted, wouldn't want to work beside me" negatively but then I did what I always do I thought of it from your side...and you know what your right...Philosphy wise we differ..I can only control myself so I chose to change what I could, WHO gets my talents..they are the forum that pays for my brains/skills.I do value myself, so i make some hard choices and move on.nursedude I'm always gonna love reading your smack and if that makes me "one of your kind" no problem. You may want to try telemedicine?? Good money/new twist for nurses utilizing tech skills.Feel free to e-mail for more info [email protected] ...no offense taken, I don't have a BSN..I do think it should be done, not to make anyone better but to make the profession....gain respect. I'm out!