What happens if we DON'T recommend nursing as a career?

nursedude · Sep 15, 2000

Oh yeah one more thing Mijourney...

Could you please clarify how my assessment of saphie's statement could have been construed as sexist or discriminatory please?

"I will tell you that I agree with your assessment that my statements could be taken as discriminatory and sexist. But then again, your assessment of Saphie's response could be equally construed the same."

P.S. In addition to Meat, Cake and Ice-cream, I'd like a salad- Italian dressing, some oysters on the half shell and a seat with a view of the water next to the fireplace!!!

Mijourney · Sep 16, 2000

Hi,

Bunky, you hit it on the nail in a clear, concise manner. I especially like the fact that you pointed out that certain attributes of nurses are exploited for someone else's gain (in this case, not the patient)-I'm clenching my teeth over this. I feel we should shoot for the best of both worlds: respectable and respect-receiving, compassionate, caring, capable, competent, and knowledgeable nurses whose pay accords them more than living from paycheck to paycheck without milking the system dry as other providers are or seem to be. Remember bunky about making a living and not "a killing" out of health and medical care? In school I was taught that Florence Nightingale did nursing out of the goodness of her heart. But, I later heard and read in the media that she did it just for the pay. Can someone confirm this?

Nursedude, thank you. Again, your "out of the box" thinking is what is needed to hopefully light some fire under our passive tendencies. Yes, I'm going to agree with you on many issues. I think that you make many valid points. I don't always agree with your "out of the box" approach or semantics on this forum as you and others don't always agree with mine. I guess it's all a matter of perception. I'm definitely not clenching my teeth over your posts (health problems dictate that I do this infrequently-yes, the practice of nursing has nawed and chewed me). You are entitled to your opinion. It's just a matter of sharing ideas and thoughts and hopefully coming to some common ground regarding major nursing issues while agreeing to disagree on other issues. The welfare of our patients and ourselves dictate that nurses find a solution to the problem, because "the system" won't. I have written in this bb before that I enjoy reading posts and responding. I think you do too in this particular area on nursing as a career.

By the way, do you still have an active nursing license? Do you use your nursing experience to obtain work? Of course, not being active in nursing does not mean that you can't go and mentor and groom someone for nursing practice. You may also want to consider helping bunky in her effort to organize nurse activists. In addition, if you are not doing this already, I would encourage you to pursue a role as a facility administrator. It would be a relief to the nursing staff to know that someone whose been there and done that is their leader and would not seek to exploit them in their working conditions and pay and would want them to be confident and aggressive about what they can do and what they expect from the administrator. Many of the real decision makers in these facilities have no health care background. Getting back to mentoring, it would be great if those who advocate positive nurse activism would find at least one person to mentor, in his/her image, so that the future of patient care and the nursing profession would be more secure.

[This message has been edited by Mijourney (edited September 16, 2000).]

bunky, BSN, RN · Sep 18, 2000

Mijourney, Nursedude wouldn't last two minutes in an administrative role. Don't take offence at that Nursedude, but only butt kissers, "leave your conscience at the door", "amnesia" victim types need apply for those jobs. Nurse Managers and Supervisors who actually stand up for their staff soon get beaten down by higher ups due to budgeting issues. And it's funny how the position changes some people too. Friends who you once worked with take on a supervisory\management role and those same people who you remember complaining bitterly right along side you are all of a sudden the ones telling you to use your time more effectively. Voluntary amnesia: "If I don't agree that the staffing I'm providing sucks than it doesn't and somehow they'll manage it." He wouldn't stand a chance. As for grooming someone for nursing? I don't think he'd be recommending this career to anyone in the near future by the sounds of it.

Although that article in the Chicago Tribune was tabloid style in it's sensationalistic titles, it would seem that it's catching some major attention and has gotten the issue at least on people's minds. Who knows, maybe help will be forthcoming as a result even if we must endure the humiliation first? Currently, I steer people clear of nursing, and the factual data in that article will likely scare off many more. Now is not a good time to be a nurse.

nursedude · Sep 18, 2000

MIjourney and Bunky,

Hey...LOLROF...I appreciate the compliment Bunky. No, I doubt that I'd make any kind of hospital administrator because of the reasons stated by Bunky- "You won't find me sticking my head up anyone's dress."

Mijourney, I do have an active license. Ocassionally- very ocassionally, I do work PRN in an ER near my home. I have also made some feeble attempts at starting a patient advocacy type of business that helps folks get reimbursement from their HMO's. As far as recruiting folks into nursing goes, well Bunky is right on that as well. When I left the ER I left behind a few friends- guys who both have a wife and kids...I FEEL SO BAD FOR THEM...They barely scrape by on what they earn. Needless to say they are trying desperately to get out of nursing. Why should any professional have to work 2 jobs in order to earn enough money to simply pay their bills??? Again, I wholeheartedly agree with you Mijourney that sexism and discrimination has taken its toll on the nursing profession and as a result (for me at least) I find that I can't afford to work as a nurse...That is why I am so adamant about the attitude that many nurses have about nursing being something you should love to do as opposed to getting paid for. That attitude makes it more difficult for my two friends and their families, and I'm sure that my two friends aren't the only ones. There are undoubtedly thousands of professional nurses all over the US who are getting shafted everyday. Last year, my friends in that ER got a raise- I'm guessing about 5 or 6 percent but from what they have told me they are making less take home pay than last year because of the increased cost of their medical/dental benefits!!! So tell me, why should anyone adopt the belief that the salary that their profession affords them shouldn't pay their their bills? That is just plain foolish. Based on that why would I recommend nursing to anyone?

It seems as if somehow nursing is becoming a profession like that of hairdressers and manicursits(sp?). You need a license to do both but it's also very dificult to earn a living doing so. Based on all that I've said, just what kind of people would want to go into a profession where you earn less $$ than the year before???

bunky, BSN, RN · Sep 18, 2000

This is the thing that I don't understand about the whole profession. Why is it that with college educations we sometimes need to work two jobs? I honestly don't think that I live the high life. I don't have a new Caddy in the garage, (or ANY Caddy in the garage it's a 96 Neon that I am still paying for) and it's a garage attached to a rented home at that. I do take a trip home once in a while, like two years ago was my last such trip, discount airfare and no rental car or hotels for me. I am raising two kids on my own, and we don't have a lot of perks. They have decent clothes, and decent meals, but not a "Caviar Dreams" existence by anyone's standards.

Why should it be like this? Why shouldn't we be able to expect a bit better than this? Why do we feel we owe our services to anyone without the pay to support a middle class life? It's great to help people, but why is it that the hospital admin rake in such large salaries because of our efforts and many of us find it necessary to take on a second job to afford life's little extras? And then to walk on the floor to find I have 9 patients is inexcuseable given the salary. I don't do this job just for the money, but I SHOULD be able to expect more than this for my efforts, and so should we all.

Trauma Columnist · Sep 18, 2000

Hey nursedude, come work in our level I ER..you'd be a riot!! And we sure could use it right now. Our nurse manager is bragging about her cost-cutting measures i.e. she hires a lot of new grads to avoid paying bigger bucks. Oh yeah, boy does that help out. I've worked in several states and overseas and it's all the same. By the way, what are you doing now? I will say, that at least in the ER where I work, the staffing (at least of RNs) is getting better. However, they got rid of transporters and now we get to trot all over the hospital to CT, xray, angio, etc. Coding someone in CT isn't fun and the techs aren't happy with the amt of blood and other things I leave behind. We have about 25% male RNs here so come on over!

Mijourney · Sep 18, 2000

Hi nursedude,

I am glad to see that I was correct about your potential for leadership and mentoring. Since you are not a traditionalist, these two qualities won't be approached in the traditional fashion as I alluded to in my previous post. You wrote that you had made a feeble attempt at starting a patient advocacy business. Leadership and mentoring are some of the attributes usually needed to become a successful entrepreneur. It also will take some "brown-nosing" or "net-working" to get what you want from people(Bunky, I understand where you're coming from, but this is how the "legitimate" money-making game is structured today with the exception of the lotto-as you know, nurses don't make enough money to invest a huge sum in our 401k or 403b plans). In addition, I feel that it will take all of the aforewritten qualities (clench your teeth) by the various posters, including you, nursedude, to be a successful entrepreneur in this day and time. By the way, how far did you get with your attempt in starting your business? Maybe, you can try again and stay with it for a while. Get your friends involved. It sounds like a worthwhile endeavor.

Have you ever been a nurse manager or administrator before? If so, how did you fare? I have to admit, I'm surprised to read you still have an active nursing license in light of your feelings about nursing.

nursedude · Sep 19, 2000

Read these links and weep (or vomit). Need I say anymore?

http://swz.salary.com/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=15025&narrowcode=HC03&geo=Clairton%2C+PA+15025&jobcode=HC07000001&jobtitle=Staff+Nurse+-+RN&image1.x=67&image1.y=19

http://swz.salary.com/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=15025&narrowcode=AG01&geo=Clairton%2C+PA+15025&jobcode=SC16000208&jobtitle=Veterinarian&image1.x=80&image1.y=19

http://swz.salary.com/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=15025&narrowcode=SC02&geo=Clairton%2C+PA+15025&jobcode=SC16000006&jobtitle=Plumber+III&image1.x=63&image1.y=25

http://swz.salary.com/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=15025&narrowcode=SC02&geo=Clairton%2C+PA+15025&jobcode=SC16000135&jobtitle=Drywall+Installer&image1.x=37&image1.y=11

http://swz.salary.com/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=15025&narrowcode=SC06&geo=Clairton%2C+PA+15025&jobcode=SC16000034&jobtitle=Automotive+Mechanic+III&image1.x=36&image 1.y=18

http://swz.salary.com/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=15025&narrowcode=SC06&geo=Clairton%2C+PA+15025&jobcode=SC16000091&jobtitle=Computer+Equipment+Repairer&image1.x=40&i mage1.y=21

http://swz.salary.com/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=15025&narrowcode=SC06&geo=Clairton%2C+PA+15025&jobcode=SC16000155&jobtitle=Funeral+Director%2FMortician&image1.x=44& image1.y=15

http://swz.salary.com/layoutscripts/swzl_compresult.asp?zipcode=15025&narrowcode=SC06&geo=Clairton%2C+PA+15025&jobcode=SC16000031&jobtitle=Waste+Water+Treatment+Technician+III&imag e1.x=87&image1.y=20

I dunno, maybe I'm all wet...Maybe I should have gone and been a veterinarian? I could be birthing cattle and euthanising old horses for much more $$ than I do taking care of human beings!!!

Mijourney, I started my biz and even advertised a little. I had a couple of friends interested but they realized as well as I did, rather suddenly that people are not willing to pay for help getting reimbursement from their HMO...Our society today just doesn't care. My two friends who helped me start - a nurse and a lawer have pretty much given up...I have one more thing I'm going to try with the whole idea and if it doesn't pan out, well I'll be closing the business. I agree with you Mijourney that it "sounds like a worthwile endeavor" but I don't think people care...

Currently I work full-time for a software company on their helpdesk...I make more $ answering the phone than I did in the ER saving lives!!! Better hours, I don't have to pay anything for my family benefits, great 401K and other perks to boot! I am on the lowest rung on the ladder here and when I compare that to what my 10 years as an RN buys- there is NO competition...

It's a damn shame...I really enjoy working as an RN in the ER but I cannot afford to do it. I have had a chance at management in the hospital- was assist mgr in ER and nope, I won't do that again maily because of the reasons previously suggested by Bunky. So I don't know. My perception and belief is that things aren't going to really change for the better for the nursing profession...Not until our society puts it's priorities in order...

JillR · Sep 19, 2000

I have to agree with nursedude and bunky in that I belive that the whole attutude that we have no control over what happens to nursing is someone elses fault.

We are the ones out there and we are the ones who need to stand up and be counted. No one is going to do this for us. We need to quit blaming the problems in nursing on others and get active.

I feel that nurses deserve better pay and working conditions. It is time we insist on these things. I do not think that "loving" what you do should be a great excuse for letting them say we do not deserve a raise, better nurse/patient ratios, benefits, NO mandatory OT ect.

I agree with nursedude when he said that it is the attitiude of some in nursing That "nursing shoud be something you love and not something to pay the bills" directly impacts how others see this profession and has alot to do with the fact that we are NOT being adequatly compensated for our knowledge and skills.

We, as nurses should be compensated enought as to pay our bills.

Mijourney · Sep 20, 2000

Hi colleagues,

Like I indicated in all my previous posts, I agree with everyone up until a point. My heart goes out to those who are still at the bedside in the hospital setting. I agree that more pay is called for in light of the growing risks associated with hospital care. But, I got tired of working with nurses who seemingly focused on nothing but what they weren't getting out of what they were doing. In the hospital setting, it made my job that much harder, because I ended up taking care of their patients or their administrative duties as well as mine. I also got tired of defending myself to patients, physicians, and other staff who had unreasonable expectations of me because I or some other nurse continously demonstrated the "I love my job" and/or "I care about you attitude." Because of this, I lost my love for nursing practice (which by the way I never had). I now tolerate it. I go with the flow now still caring for and about patients, because as a home health nurse, I do frequently receive rewards, either verbally or otherwise, that recognize the good work I do. It's not just about the money for me, it's that occasional pat on the back. It's also about what I can do for somebody that makes a difference whether they acknowledge it or not. I love that aspect of nursing. In home health, I find that I don't have to work extra right now, because my income does meet my needs although I would like more. Nurses, we are not promised that people will respond in kind when we do our best. When I get to the point that I find nursing and the various settings were nurses work more intolerable then tolerable, then I will find another line of work more suitable for my needs and give up my license. At this point, I have no plans to return to the hospital (surely you can understand why) unless I'm ill with a chance for rehab, and at that point, I want God to have His Mercy on me.

babs_rn · Sep 22, 2000

Originally posted by bunky:
This is the thing that I don't understand about the whole profession. Why is it that with college educations we sometimes need to work two jobs? I honestly don't think that I live the high life. I don't have a new Caddy in the garage, (or ANY Caddy in the garage it's a 96 Neon that I am still paying for) and it's a garage attached to a rented home at that. I do take a trip home once in a while, like two years ago was my last such trip, discount airfare and no rental car or hotels for me. I am raising two kids on my own, and we don't have a lot of perks. They have decent clothes, and decent meals, but not a "Caviar Dreams" existence by anyone's standards.

Why should it be like this? Why shouldn't we be able to expect a bit better than this? Why do we feel we owe our services to anyone without the pay to support a middle class life? It's great to help people, but why is it that the hospital admin rake in such large salaries because of our efforts and many of us find it necessary to take on a second job to afford life's little extras? And then to walk on the floor to find I have 9 patients is inexcuseable given the salary. I don't do this job just for the money, but I SHOULD be able to expect more than this for my efforts, and so should we all.

Why, indeed, Bunky? Maybe it's because nursing is a "helping profession", thus it attracts passive-aggressive self-sacrificing codependent people who insist on being liked by everybody? Since it seems to be largely dominated by such types, it makes it hard on those of us who actually do want a normal life and a normal family and the occasional weekend trip. I would KILL to be able to fix supper in the evenings. That means I would actually be HOME! It kills me to see people with less education and experience making so much more than I do.

PINKYE1 · Sep 23, 2000

Nursedude,

Hear hear!! Which makes it even worse when patients tend to take me and my peers for granted and see us as pillowfluffers and pillbearers. I found out in my first job in a hospital a few years ago that nursing care was covered in the patient's bill as part of room and board! This is true. Now, here I am BSN, BA and BS and 5 classes short of an MPH and my salary is part of room and board? Is that like the complimentary stationery in the hotel room? We nurses need to rally and demand our recognition as professionals vice window dressing. At the same time, we need to act professionally. It is difficult to support a colleague who reports for their shift late, is lazy, not a team player and may actually be a lousy nurse. Comments???