Emergency Nurse Relief Act 2009- Update - page 6

Read what is being said by American Lawyers about US Nurses, basically we are uneducated, not dedicated, and need the help of foreign nurses to function. American nurses especially ADN prepared... Read More

  1. by   2BSure
    Quote from Alexk49
    Hushdawg,

    You make a living counseling RNs who wish to immigrate to the USA and you do not practice in the USA ( Much different then knowing trends) so I would say you have a vested interest in seeing this bill approved. Not that this is bad, but your viewpoint is very different than a practicing nurse.

    My point is a nurse should get the education for the country they plan to practice in the country. Not having the proper education in the area and local you wish to practice is a disadvantage .

    UK Nurse= UK Education

    Canada Nurse = Canada Education

    etc, etc.

    The thing is some countries are trying to make a living by exporting nurses to other countries. In my opinion they only way they are going get an equal education is having a equal clinical experiences, this can happen by having hospitals and clinics that are set up to the country they wish to practice standards or have rotations ( that are approved by the BON) to meet their standard.


    This has nothing to do with a nurse being different color or race only based on education and citizenship of the nurse.

    For a long time, there was a thought a nurse is a nurse and you can float a nurse to any location in a hospital and the nurse should be able to function without any orientation. No one excepts that any nurse moving to have a detailed orientation yet this bill proposed that nurses from a foreign country can jump in and function at 100% , sorry I don't buy it.
    With the greatest of respect how can a COUNTRY make a living exporting nurses? Where do you get this stuff? Also, as for educating people in the country they are going to work in; do you think this is the case for all professions -- or just nursing? What about foreign doctors? This country would have collapsed without foreign educated individuals.

    As for the idea of a some "shadow" nursing workforce sitting around waiting for the planets to align before they jump back in? Rubbish. This idea has been debunked again and again. These "inactive" nurses have repeatedly reported that their top reasons for leaving were in fact not related to conditions & pay and that they are not poised to come back to work.

    I confess having waited for one of you naysayers to make a good point in this discussion I have become bored.
  2. by   eriksoln
    Quote from 2BSure
    With the greatest of respect how can a COUNTRY make a living exporting nurses? Where do you get this stuff? Also, as for educating people in the country they are going to work in; do you think this is the case for all professions -- or just nursing? What about foreign doctors? This country would have collapsed without foreign educated individuals.

    As for the idea of a some "shadow" nursing workforce sitting around waiting for the planets to align before they jump back in? Rubbish. This idea has been debunked again and again. These "inactive" nurses have repeatedly reported that their top reasons for leaving were in fact not related to conditions & pay and that they are not poised to come back to work.

    I confess having waited for one of you naysayers to make a good point in this discussion I have become bored.
    Well, I can at least say I agree with the fact that I dont believe there is a group of nurses out there waiting to rejoin the work force. And even if there is, there is just as big a group working now waiting for things to improve so they may leave. Add me to that list for one.

    I've said from the start that once the economy improves, people are going to find out what a nursing shortage is. I can name ten people off the top of my head who are GONE/DONE the second the job market improves. Some want to work part time doing something else while waiting for their retirement funds to mature. Others (me) want to make nursing a side job instead of a career and are waiting for better opportunities in other fields. I know at least three that take it even a step further than I, plan on completely leaving nursing for another career, wont even be working part time as a nurse once they find another avenue. And, we have not even gotten to the ones who will retire once the economy is better.......the ones who are only around because otherwise, their retirement funds would drain.

    Heck, I know personally two nurses who quit despite the bad economy, didnt have it in them to wait for things to improve. One sited poor working conditions (being pulled twice a week to floors she was not comfortable on) and another sited schedule reasons (done with nights, refuses to do them at all anymore).

    So, yeah, in a couple years when the economy improves, we may be praying a few foreign nurses end up on our unit so we can have that elusive day off. That is not the goal of people like the lawyers mentioned in this topic though. They wish to bring in so many foreign nurses that the field becomes saturated NOW (in a couple years, it wont be doable). So, at least for a couple years, they can bump up CEO and administrative salaries while forsaking having to pay anything for nurses or having to worry about people rebelling against poor work conditions.
  3. by   lindarn
    Quote from 2BSure
    With the greatest of respect how can a COUNTRY make a living exporting nurses? Where do you get this stuff? Also, as for educating people in the country they are going to work in; do you think this is the case for all professions -- or just nursing? What about foreign doctors? This country would have collapsed without foreign educated individuals.

    As for the idea of a some "shadow" nursing workforce sitting around waiting for the planets to align before they jump back in? Rubbish. This idea has been debunked again and again. These "inactive" nurses have repeatedly reported that their top reasons for leaving were in fact not related to conditions & pay and that they are not poised to come back to work.

    I confess having waited for one of you naysayers to make a good point in this discussion I have become bored.
    Countries make a living by exporting nurses from the MONEY, that these nurses earn in he United States, and send the money back to their home country for their families to spend to support themselves.

    And yes, as has been stated, there are 500, 000 nurses who are not working, and could/would return to active practice. However, as it stands now, you might as well as have leprosy, than try to return to work in active nursing after not having practiced for a couple of years.

    Hospitals make it almost impossible for older nurses to return to work. They would rather pay new grads and pay them to go through a new grad orientation, than pay older nurses, who have been around the block a few times, and who would not be too easly pushed around.

    I would not be happy if this county brought in thousands of foreign nurses, before they have exhausted ALL OF THEIR OTHER OPTIONS. Here in Washington State new grads are unable to get jobs after graduation, and now Swedish Hospital in Seattle had sent out recruiters to bring in foreign nurses from the Phillipines. Why? There are hundreds of nurses here in Washington State who need jobs, and they have no business bringing in foreign nurses to take these jobs. Of course, these foreign nurses would not be unionized by the state nursing association, or SEIU.

    The name of the game is CONTROL OF THE NURSING PROFESSION!! Nurses have been told by their employers, "do what we tell you, or you will be replaced by foreign nurses from 3rd world countries, who will do anything we tell them to do".
    THAT is what happened with the Sentosa nurses on Long Island, in NY.

    THAT is what the issues are!

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
  4. by   2BSure
    Quote from lindarn
    Countries make a living by exporting nurses from the MONEY, that these nurses earn in he United States, and send the money back to their home country for their families to spend to support themselves.

    And yes, as has been stated, there are 500, 000 nurses who are not working, and could/would return to active practice. However, as it stands now, you might as well as have leprosy, than try to return to work in active nursing after not having practiced for a couple of years.

    Hospitals make it almost impossible for older nurses to return to work. They would rather pay new grads and pay them to go through a new grad orientation, than pay older nurses, who have been around the block a few times, and who would not be too easly pushed around.

    I would not be happy if this county brought in thousands of foreign nurses, before they have exhausted ALL OF THEIR OTHER OPTIONS. Here in Washington State new grads are unable to get jobs after graduation, and now Swedish Hospital in Seattle had sent out recruiters to bring in foreign nurses from the Phillipines. Why? There are hundreds of nurses here in Washington State who need jobs, and they have no business bringing in foreign nurses to take these jobs. Of course, these foreign nurses would not be unionized by the state nursing association, or SEIU.

    The name of the game is CONTROL OF THE NURSING PROFESSION!! Nurses have been told by their employers, "do what we tell you, or you will be replaced by foreign nurses from 3rd world countries, who will do anything we tell them to do".
    THAT is what happened with the Sentosa nurses on Long Island, in NY.

    THAT is what the issues are!

    Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN
    Spokane, Washington
    You are reaching and using unreal generalizations. What is your source of this "data" about 500,000 inactive nurses? What is your source of information stating these foreign nurses will come from "3rd world countries"? What are you calling 3rd a third world country? Is Britain a 3rd world country? Perhaps China?

    As for a shortage of jobs in your area - you cannot extrapolate that to the rest of the US.

    You do recognize that the Philippines are in fact industrialized and not a banana republic don't you? Probably not.

    As for illustration with the Sentosa nurse case -- they resigned. So you are not even proving your point that your 3rd world nurses will do anything.

    It must be very exhausting to be so angry and afraid. I am so sorry for you.
  5. by   Ginger's Mom
    Quote from 2BSure
    You are reaching and using unreal generalizations. What is your source of this "data" about 500,000 inactive nurses? What is your source of information stating these foreign nurses will come from "3rd world countries"? What are you calling 3rd a third world country? Is Britain a 3rd world country? Perhaps China?

    As for a shortage of jobs in your area - you cannot extrapolate that to the rest of the US.

    You do recognize that the Philippines are in fact industrialized and not a banana republic don't you? Probably not.

    As for illustration with the Sentosa nurse case -- they resigned. So you are not even proving your point that your 3rd world nurses will do anything.

    It must be very exhausting to be so angry and afraid. I am so sorry for you.
    Well I am in East coast with adult children in AZ and NY, so from our small sample, MA, WA, AZ, NY nurses are having trouble finding positions.

    From what I read on the board, from posters in the Philippines is that conditions except for a few tertiary hospitals are primitive.

    The Sentosa nurses were are a horrible chapter in nursing. They were sent to live in slave like conditions and then put in unsafe nursing settings and they were unable to navigate through the US system. Shame on the recruiters and shame on the US system for allowing these nurses to be put in that horrible situation. That is why foreign nurses should have a bridging program to prepare them in a humane way to practice nursing.

    The number of Philippine nurses is based on number of nurses from the Philippines that sit for the boards. If you check the Health Affairs Article is also cites the Philippines as the number one exporter of nurses.
  6. by   Hushdawg
    Quote from elkpark
    You just finished making the argument that passing the NCLEX is proof that foreign-educated nurses are just as knowledgeable and skilled as US educated nurses. Baccalaureate-prepared and Associate's-prepared nurses pass the exact same NCLEX exam and hold exactly the same license, so how can you then turn around and argue that one is "more qualified" than the other because of which degree s/he holds? You can't have it both ways. There are many factors to consider in deciding who is "more qualified" for a particular position.
    I'm not having it both ways. They are both licensed and the NCLEX exam is used in the licensing. Therefore one cannot say that one licensed nurse is inferior to another licensed nurse.

    However, when doing hiring all of the credentials are put on the line. If there are two equally qualified persons with the only difference between them being that one has an AS and the other has a BS which would you hire?

    Honestly.

    This isn't about what I believe, this is about how the staff are hired by the hospital owners.
  7. by   Hushdawg
    Quote from Alexk49
    Hushdawg,
    You make a living counseling RNs who wish to immigrate to the USA and you do not practice in the USA ( Much different then knowing trends) so I would say you have a vested interest in seeing this bill approved. Not that this is bad, but your viewpoint is very different than a practicing nurse.
    I honestly have no vested interest one way or the other. I'll continue doing my job and helping nurses whether this bill is passed or not. The difference in the volume of visas released doesn't affect my income one way or another.

    I'm not a practicing nurse, that is why I spend time reading blogs and social sites like this to get the viewpoint of a practicing nurse. It is also why I chose to read only without responding for three months on Allnurses.

    Quote from Alexk49
    My point is a nurse should get the education for the country they plan to practice in the country. Not having the proper education in the area and local you wish to practice is a disadvantage .

    UK Nurse= UK Education

    Canada Nurse = Canada Education

    etc, etc.
    This is pretty silly honestly.
    I can understand a bridging course for immigrant medical professionals but really the human body is the same worldwide so the training isn't going to be so different that someone would have to take a whole new 4 year course to be able to practice medicine.

    UK, Australia and New Zealand have an excellently established bridging education program for all incoming nurses. It is adjusted based on the knowledge level of the nurse (pre-tests determine) and the maximum length of time is 6 months.
    If the USA adopted Universal healthcare then we could adopt a similarly intelligent program but currently each company owning a hospital has to be responsible for these kinds of bridging courses.

    Quote from Alexk49
    The thing is some countries are trying to make a living by exporting nurses to other countries. In my opinion they only way they are going get an equal education is having a equal clinical experiences, this can happen by having hospitals and clinics that are set up to the country they wish to practice standards or have rotations ( that are approved by the BON) to meet their standard.
    Countries make a living by exporting nurses? Right.. that makes a lot of sense.

    The reason people become nurses and get jobs overseas has nothing to do with the country they come from, it has to do with trying to make a better life for themselves and their families.

    As for clinical experience, I would LOVE to see US hospitals set up shop in the key nations to train nurses in a real clinical setting before sending them to the USA. This would solve dozens of problems all at once. Bring it on!

    Quote from Alexk49
    For a long time, there was a thought a nurse is a nurse and you can float a nurse to any location in a hospital and the nurse should be able to function without any orientation. No one excepts that any nurse moving to have a detailed orientation yet this bill proposed that nurses from a foreign country can jump in and function at 100% , sorry I don't buy it.
    Honestly, a nurse working in a small town hospital in the USA moving to a major heath care center in NYC would have just as much difficulty adjusting than a nurse moving from Manila, Philippines to the USA.

    Bridging courses I totally agree with, rejecting all foreign education is a ludicrous idea altogether.
  8. by   Hushdawg
    Quote from Alexk49
    From what I read on the board, from posters in the Philippines is that conditions except for a few tertiary hospitals are primitive.
    You are full of xenophobic comments lately aren't you?

    I'm really surprised at your comments lately.. I didn't think you would be the type to talk this way.

    While it is true that PH government and low-income hospitals are set at a much lower standard than US hospitals, there are many that are closer to US standard.

    That being said, the nurses here are still educated in modern techniques and methods. Nurses are educated with the understanding that most will be going abroad to US, Australia, NZ and Middle Eastern countries.

    You should also be aware that a very large number of PH nurses are working in hospitals in the Mid-East that are at or above US standards of healthcare. These nurses are the ones who are still trying to get to the USA.

    It is very common for a nurse to get her license in the USA and then go to work in the Mid-East to get experience while waiting for visa applications and job offers in the USA.

    In many ways this multicultural training scenario is what makes Pinoy nurses so attractive to US hospitals.
  9. by   misplaced1
    This is the second industry I have been in with a "shortage". And of course it is the people from third world countries that come here to work because people in other countries, ie Germany, Sweden live in places where jobs go to the people that live their first and so they don't need to leave there home country to be employed. honestly, I don't see masses of Swedish people getting nursing degrees and immigrating to the US!

    And as far as that goes because I wa already involved in one "shortage industry" I am used to working with lots of foreign born people. I loved it, I love them. The individual people I loved. But, the fat remains that it is not fair to anyone, including the countries where these people are coming from, actually mostly their home countries, for a great number of their best and brightest to immigrate. The key is to boost up the economies of these third world countries NOT create third world brain drain as we are doing now.

    The difference between my old industry in nursing is that nurses actually help to replace themselves. At least other people in other industries, ie like in IT will shout out that it is not fair. Nurses are the perfect target because they will not even do that. They go on about patient care etc etc and dont even consider themselves like good little nurses. Other people in other professions think it is ok to look out for themselves. If you try to look out for yourself in nursing heaven help you. I am telling you I have a PhD in another field and I am thinking that if I decide to leave nursing, if I can, I better not put that RN behind my name or people will think they can take advantage of me. I never realized this before but it is the truth. I feel quite sad about it.

    Not just for me but for so many of you that are being used, and defending the people THAT ARE USING YOU. This is not a patient care issue. American people are capable of being nurses and capable of giving GREAT CARE. I mean come on I dont know about you but my education was top notch. This is all part of the MATRY problem that is so prevalent in nursing. Only the BEST person should do the job to give the BEST patient care. Believe that there are BEST people out there that may do the job better than you yada yada. Well, I have news for you. Nursing is a job that LOTS of people can do. Just like MOST JOBS. And those LOTS of NURSES that are needed to do the job can be hired from the US or from somewhere else. If the MATRYS out there don't mind that the people that do these nursing jobs that LOTS of people can do are hired from somewhere else instead of here, well I suppose they don't mind living in cardboard boxes. I do. And since WE can also do the job why not hire us?

    IMO everyone needs to stop with the self important marty act and cop to the fact that this is a job. you get paid for it. AND it is a job lots of people are qualified to do like MOST JOBS. If you want to be a nun be a nun but this is a job. It might be a job that you love, it might be a job that takes lots of time and that your willingly put your heart in but its still a job. Until you stop taking the paycheck its a job. But some of you can't admit that.

    Heck, maybe these nursing positions should be 100% volunteer. That would fix thing huh?

    i am with the other poster that said I feel like a rat on a tredmill. There are many nurses I know right now that don't have health insurance. Taking care of people with no job that are fully covered. something is wrong with this picture. It is just so wrong in so many ways. But becasue of the martry issue I dont see it ending.

    Nurses are the perfect group to pick to take advantage of due to this attitude. It really was a stroke of genius on the part of some very smart industrialists. You almost have to admire their intelligence and insight.

    I know one thing, thinking from a purely financial standpoint, this is what I would do if I wanted to have my hospital or other facility make money. I would have advance practitioners doing lots of the primary care and psych and anything else they could do. They can bill and be reimbursed so they are money makers. I would replace physicians with them in any role possible. I would put physicians in the high tech areas where I could advertise their expertise.

    I would have a great deal of the jobs now done by nurses done by techs. Anything that doesn't absolutely have to be done by nurses I would have done by techs and nursing assistants. That way RNs could take more patients. There is way more in the hospital and other settings that can be delegated than is right now. Moreover you can have RN's supervise a number of these people and have the RN as the fall guy if something goes wrong. In fact since techs and NAs are unlicensed the hospital may even have less liability this way but I am not going to go into that here.

    In the future I suspect that more videotape or voice recorders will be carried by employees to cut down on charting. Employes could be dedicated to translating the video and recordings to written charting if that was required. In the case of a lawsuit, the tape or recording could always be consulted. Right now I suspect hospitals don't want this but I can't see how it will be avoided.

    Nurses are an expense. The best way to increase profits is to reduce expenses. I believe that nurses are the largest hospital expense. So they would be the biggest target for reduction. You can't bill for nursing services in the way you bill for doctors or NP or PA services. As long as nurses are an expense, even in a nonprofit, managment will be trying to do with less. Historically the best way to do with less is to hire immigrant labor. If it were not for the Chinese being worked into the ground, we would never have our railways. This is not to put down immigrants in any way. It is just the way it has always been historically. Check your history books.

    It is just dollars and cents. If we want to give away our jobs. They will certainly be glad to let us give them to people who are desparate. ANd the sad part is from what I have seen in nursing, nurses are easily guilted into believing it is for the best, or the right thing to do as they often do not even consider themselves at all. The codependence in nursing is rampant and ingrained and I don't think its going anywhere soon. And that, from what I can see is what is destroying this profession. Codependence is destroying what should be a glorious profession.
  10. by   HippyGreenPeaceChick
    We have the richest most expensive healthcare system by far and above anywhere else in the world. Why does the W.H.O. rank us number 37th in the world as to quality. This has nothing to do with importing nurses. This has nothing to do with the care we give. So why are we 37th. This irritates me. I also believe in Universal Health Care or as some call it the Single Payment System. What can we do to return ourselves to being number 1 in the world. We lead the world in wars, let us instead lead the world in healthcare.
  11. by   rainbow11
    To Alex49 and others who are against ENRSA,

    I'm reading your comment and laughing, ha ha ha. I got my BSN degree from the States, I passed NLCEX the first time I took it, and I have a US RN license. I was the only foreign-student in my BSN program, in terms of my grades I was the 2nd from top. Anyway, I think the US Immigration system is all screwed up, it does nothing to attract foreign-born (many are US-educated) young, intelligent minds. Even though I went to the same school as my fellow American classmates, I have same RN license --- I am UNABLE to work simply because I'm FOREIGN-BORN and there is no damn visa for foreign nurses at present. So, please try to put yourself in my shoes for a second before you jump in a conclusion! I'm sure there are hundreds and thousands of foreign-born new grads from US nursing programs in a similar situation like me. Is that right for us to be "punished" and not be able to work, just because we are foreign-born?! Indeed I am always proud of where I am from (btw, I'm not a Phillipino).

    Also, the Department of Labor determined a long time ago, that RN is one of professions in shortage. You guys keep argueing if nursing in shortage or not... I do not know, but I do not think they came up with these kind of stats out of nowhere << http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill...bill=h111-2536
    (2) Over the next 15 years, this shortage is expected to grow significantly. The Health Resources and Services Administration has projected that by 2020, there will be a shortage of nurses in every State and that overall only 64 percent of the demand for nurses will be satisfied, with a shortage of 1,016,900 nurses nationally.>> When I check any hospital web site in my area there are plenty of nursing jobs, that I can tell you for sure.

    So, right now it looks like all my efforts, time and money, put into nursing career here in the States is thrown to "trash". I have a USELESS US RN license lying somewhere around. All I wanted is to work LEGALLY as a nurse in the States for a few years (since I went to school here) and see how nursing is like in real life...

    You know what? Since I could not work and get paid like everyone else, I decided to work for FREE. I tried to do a clinical voluntary job, but I was told by many hospitals I could not do so because of HIPPA. I can go on like this, but I'm gonna stop it here. My point is do NOT look at this from ONE ANGLE only! I'm sure there are many different interests in regard of this issue. Try to look at the big picture and understand how some of us worked very hard and made all the efforts, but afterwall are being treated UNFAIRLY! I DO NOT CARE WHAT YOU GUYS SAY, I am hoping H.R. 2536 WILL BE APPROVED soon!! Because that will give people like myself opportunity to work legally in the States.

    Quote from Alexk49
    Hushdawg,

    You make a living counseling RNs who wish to immigrate to the USA and you do not practice in the USA ( Much different then knowing trends) so I would say you have a vested interest in seeing this bill approved. Not that this is bad, but your viewpoint is very different than a practicing nurse.

    My point is a nurse should get the education for the country they plan to practice in the country. Not having the proper education in the area and local you wish to practice is a disadvantage .

    UK Nurse= UK Education

    Canada Nurse = Canada Education

    etc, etc.

    The thing is some countries are trying to make a living by exporting nurses to other countries. In my opinion they only way they are going get an equal education is having a equal clinical experiences, this can happen by having hospitals and clinics that are set up to the country they wish to practice standards or have rotations ( that are approved by the BON) to meet their standard.


    This has nothing to do with a nurse being different color or race only based on education and citizenship of the nurse.

    For a long time, there was a thought a nurse is a nurse and you can float a nurse to any location in a hospital and the nurse should be able to function without any orientation. No one excepts that any nurse moving to have a detailed orientation yet this bill proposed that nurses from a foreign country can jump in and function at 100% , sorry I don't buy it.
  12. by   Hushdawg
    Quote from HippyGreenPeaceChick
    Why does the W.H.O. rank us number 37th in the world as to quality. ... We lead the world in wars, let us instead lead the world in healthcare.

    I just want to say that I love you for this.
  13. by   Hushdawg
    Quote from moon906
    I got my BSN degree from the States, I passed NLCEX the first time I took it, and I have a US RN license. I was the only foreign-student in my BSN program, in terms of my grades I was the 2nd from top.
    ....
    Even though I went to the same school as my fellow American classmates, I have same RN license --- I am UNABLE to work simply because I'm FOREIGN-BORN and there is no damn visa for foreign nurses at present.
    You should contact an immigration attorney and see if there is an alternative for you.

    Some free advice: There are alternatives to retrogression; you need a lawyer and some patience but you can still immigrate legally and work if you fit certain qualifiers.

    I understand how you feel. When I was in Chicago I was working with a community of Arab nurse graduates who were struggling to get legal status to work; luckily we were able to find ways to get them to immigrate legally because of the state of war and their inability to return to their defined "home" country.
    So now there are a few dozen patriotic Arab-American nurses working happily in the greater Chicago metro area.

    I hope you can find a solution soon for your situation.

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