Did I do the right thing? - page 5

Did I do the right thing? I have a close friend.....and that person has been denying they have a alcohol addiction problem. They made me feel guilty for even asking if they had a problem.Things got... Read More

  1. by   Magsulfate
    Quote from Keysnurse2008
    I am suprised that they dont have people that have successfully completed the program on the panel that reviews complaints. I mean .....that would be the equivilant to having me on the panel that reviews them. And ....I apparently am pretty gullable. I still cant completly grasp everything you guys are describing. I almost fell for his shennanigans again the other day when he told me what was in the contract. I dont consider myself easily manipulated....but I have been. So there is no way to compare the knowledge I would bring to a review panel with what one of you guys would.So....that suprises me ...that they dont have recovering nurses on there. What about leaders for these peer group meetings....and the case managers....?
    I go to a weekend conference every year. It is required to be an advocate in the state of Texas. Every year there are members of the investigation unit from the board of nursing. So, yes they do have some education in the matter. They may not be experts like Jack,, they may not be recovering addicts like me but they have had education on the subject. I have witnessed this. There are a lot of recovering nurses volunteering and working with tpapn, nurses that have completed the program and have been clean/sober for some time. Also, the case managers have seen everything. Pretty much. They do have the first go at nurses who foul up and need recovery to save them. So, that is the first chance nurses get. In their first chance, they have a whole group of people very educated about recovery in the healthcare field. Once that chance is thrown away, the board is not so nice. That's the easiest way to put it.

    Even if there were board members highly educated in the aspect of addiction/alcoholism, I am not sure it would make a big difference. They are there to protect the patients , the public from dangerous nurses.
  2. by   Keysnurse2008
    Quote from magsulfate
    i go to a weekend conference every year. it is required to be an advocate in the state of texas. every year there are members of the investigation unit from the board of nursing. so, yes they do have some education in the matter. they may not be experts like jack,, they may not be recovering addicts like me but they have had education on the subject. i have witnessed this. there are a lot of recovering nurses volunteering and working with tpapn, nurses that have completed the program and have been clean/sober for some time. also, the case managers have seen everything. pretty much. they do have the first go at nurses who foul up and need recovery to save them. so, that is the first chance nurses get. in their first chance, they have a whole group of people very educated about recovery in the healthcare field. once that chance is thrown away, the board is not so nice. that's the easiest way to put it.

    even if there were board members highly educated in the aspect of addiction/alcoholism, i am not sure it would make a big difference. they are there to protect the patients , the public from dangerous nurses.
    thank you so much for sharing all your insight. i guess it makes sense to have case managers etc that are not kinda fighting their own demons. this...is complicated stuff. i am still kinda sorting all this stuff out in my head exactly how it all works. i guess that helps the bon members alot,...having you guys at this conference to keep them in touch/ ground them. i see patients all the time in the ed trying to get something...they come in with a plan and over time we have learned their behavoirs,...at times we even know what complaints they will have , what they really want and what they need. what they want and need are seldom the same thing. at this conference.....do they ask you guys alot of questions? or do they come thinking they are going to educate you? see...the case manager i spoke with seemed very wise to say the least. they told me that what my friend was doing was manipulating me when i told them he had a way of making me feel bad i had even asked if he had a problem. ok...this is probably the last question i have for you guys. how can you tell if someone has started to reuse? is the initial behavoir re-exhibited? or do you see other things ......i mean tehy way you guys describe this is like a rollercoaster that you have to be on for a while till you see the ride end. so...you cant just say because they are disheveled/ dont care about their appearance that they are using...bc it kinda sounds like hell. it sounds like your body proabably feels like it has been on the spin cycle so you might not have energy........and i dont think id be able to reconize if he was relapsing...bc hell i wasnt 100% sure he had a problem till it slapped me in the face. i see that this is his great hope...he feels like it is the end of the world. it isnt.....but with such deceitful behavoir...dont know how to help ...or maybe id be doing him a better favor to just stay away till after a few months.maybe this is why alot of people walk away.....we just dont know how to help and dont want to make things worse.
  3. by   Magsulfate
    Well, it sounds like probably, if your friend relapses, he will be drunk. You will be able to tell. You'll see him with a drink in his hand, or you will see him drunk.

    Also, just to clarify, I'm not fighting my demons anymore. Anyone in good recovery will probably agree with me that their demons are locked up, and only growl every now and then. I am not fighting off my demons anymore and anyone working as a case manager or advocate will be the same. Otherwise how can one help others if they are still having difficulty with their own recovery?

    Also, is this your significant other or are you his supervisor? I am very familiar with the workings of TPAPN and know that it is a VERY confidential program, and they wouldn't be talking to you unless you were one of these, or you were working on his case as a manager or advocate. This information brings to light a whole new issue. Just be very careful, go on with life, but right now it is priority number one for him to recover and stay sober. It doesn't have to be the center of every conversation, but it will be a conversation that you'll have EVERYDAY for a while. And it is something that will be in the back of your mind, and his, all the time.
  4. by   jackstem
    Quote from Magsulfate
    I go to a weekend conference every year. It is required to be an advocate in the state of Texas. Every year there are members of the investigation unit from the board of nursing. So, yes they do have some education in the matter. They may not be experts like Jack,, they may not be recovering addicts like me but they have had education on the subject. I have witnessed this. There are a lot of recovering nurses volunteering and working with tpapn, nurses that have completed the program and have been clean/sober for some time. Also, the case managers have seen everything. Pretty much. They do have the first go at nurses who foul up and need recovery to save them. So, that is the first chance nurses get. In their first chance, they have a whole group of people very educated about recovery in the healthcare field. Once that chance is thrown away, the board is not so nice. That's the easiest way to put it.

    Even if there were board members highly educated in the aspect of addiction/alcoholism, I am not sure it would make a big difference. They are there to protect the patients , the public from dangerous nurses.
    Ahhhhhh yes...they are there to protect the public from dangerous nurses. But a nurse who is dangerous because of a disease should be managed differently than a nurse who is dangerous because they are stupid, lazy or don't give a damn.

    Unfortunately, there are few states with the setup that Texas has. Too many BON's have no idea what they're doing when it comes to this disease...whether it's the impaired nurse or an impaired patient. They are judgmental in both instances, they're just able to be punitive with the impaired nurse. Sit in on some of the board meetings and listen to what's said between cases, what's said when they are "off the record". It's appalling, unprofessional, and unethical. One meeting I was sitting in on was amazing. One of the board members was beginning a rant about how impaired nurses should never have the chance to get their license back. They should be "busted and rot in jail". Finally, one of the attorneys working for the board told the guy to shut up and get his posterior into the room off the main room so they could discuss things further. I wish I had a tape recorder with me that day.

    Scary stuff.

    Jack
  5. by   Magsulfate
    Oh man. I don't know if I even want to sit in on something like that... I guess I'm lucky to be a Texan.

    Oh yeah.. did I tell you?...

    Jack, you are so smart.




    Quote from jackstem
    Ahhhhhh yes...they are there to protect the public from dangerous nurses. But a nurse who is dangerous because of a disease should be managed differently than a nurse who is dangerous because they are stupid, lazy or don't give a damn.

    Unfortunately, there are few states with the setup that Texas has. Too many BON's have no idea what they're doing when it comes to this disease...whether it's the impaired nurse or an impaired patient. They are judgmental in both instances, they're just able to be punitive with the impaired nurse. Sit in on some of the board meetings and listen to what's said between cases, what's said when they are "off the record". It's appalling, unprofessional, and unethical. One meeting I was sitting in on was amazing. One of the board members was beginning a rant about how impaired nurses should never have the chance to get their license back. They should be "busted and rot in jail". Finally, one of the attorneys working for the board told the guy to shut up and get his posterior into the room off the main room so they could discuss things further. I wish I had a tape recorder with me that day.

    Scary stuff.

    Jack
  6. by   jackstem
    Quote from Magsulfate
    Oh man. I don't know if I even want to sit in on something like that... I guess I'm lucky to be a Texan.

    Oh yeah.. did I tell you?...

    Jack, you are so smart.
    And you are so full of that brown stuff!
  7. by   Magsulfate
    Quote from jackstem
    And you are so full of that brown stuff!
    Yes, I just ate a very large fudge brownie with walnuts, chased down with milk.. now I've got to go get a gastric lap band to counteract all the calories.. oh wait, did i tell you about the Venti double choc chip frapaccino that i'm drinking too???
  8. by   NeedchangeofPace
    Quote from Magsulfate

    Also, just to clarify, I'm not fighting my demons anymore. Anyone in good recovery will probably agree with me that their demons are locked up, and only growl every now and then.
    Ain't that the truth..but sometimes the tentacles do come out from under the bed.

    Great thread Mag and Jack wish I could articulate half as good as the 2 of you, even a quarter would be good.

    I do have one question, you nurse types have an affinity for using intials like everyone supposed to understand them, so that being said what the heck is a CEU? Do I need one? or two? Do they go good with coffee? or best before an appetizer? or after the salad?? Are they expensive?? Do they travel well??

    Thanks

    Mark
  9. by   LilRedRN1973
    Personally, I'm very grateful my contract is 5 years. In the beginning, when I was learning what recovery was about, the Board of Nursing was my Higher Power! I know some of my fellow nurses in the program are very resentful and angry that they have to report to the Board for 5 years, etc. But in my opinion, they are there to help me to succeed and come out a healthier person as well as a healthier nurse. I just took my 1 year chip on Tuesday and it's almost surreal.

    I do feel at times a little frustrated at all my commitments, but I also know that's part of what I'm working on. To fulfill my contract, I have to attend a nurse support group once a week, an Aftercare group once a week, at least 2 AA/NA meetings per week, and see a counselor/therapist twice a month. I call in every day for random drug testing and that is $50/month. In all, it costs me in between $300-400/month for my requirements. A small price to pay for......my life. I also am required to submit monthly reports; my sponsor and supervisor also have to submit monthly reports. No nightshifts, no narcotics for at least a year (that is the kiss of death when looking for a job....lol), no home health, no agency/staffing companies, no critical care, no per diem, etc. The list of "no's" is long. But again, a small price to pay for what I have today.

    I think about other states having shorter contracts and my knee-jerk reaction is "that must be nice". But then I think about how nice it is to have this governing body to keep me accountable for the next 5 years. That's time I have to work on retraining my brain on how to deal with the stressors in life and how to use the tools I am gathering as I walk through recovery. Today, I'm thankful and am learning how to be "reasonably comfortable" one day at a time.

    I wish there had been someone there for me like the OP was there for their friend. Maybe I would have gotten help before I hurt myself, my career, and those I love. But in the end, I'm happy that I DID finally check into rehab and report myself to the Board. Today, I have so much in my life I never would have imagined.
  10. by   jackstem
    Life is good1973 (An excellent screen name...however, we must find a way to shorten it somehow),

    Thank you for sharing your experience, strength, and hope. I agree completely with everything you shared with us. Unfortunately, addicts/alcoholics in early recovery are angry and feel "put upon". But as most of us who eventually "get it", feel exactly like you do now.

    Such an important post...thank you for sharing it with us.

    Jack
  11. by   Keysnurse2008
    Quote from magsulfate
    well, it sounds like probably, if your friend relapses, he will be drunk. you will be able to tell. you'll see him with a drink in his hand, or you will see him drunk.

    also, just to clarify, i'm not fighting my demons anymore. anyone in good recovery will probably agree with me that their demons are locked up, and only growl every now and then. i am not fighting off my demons anymore and anyone working as a case manager or advocate will be the same. otherwise how can one help others if they are still having difficulty with their own recovery?

    also, is this your significant other or are you his supervisor? i am very familiar with the workings of tpapn and know that it is a very confidential program, and they wouldn't be talking to you unless you were one of these, or you were working on his case as a manager or advocate. this information brings to light a whole new issue. just be very careful, go on with life, but right now it is priority number one for him to recover and stay sober. it doesn't have to be the center of every conversation, but it will be a conversation that you'll have everyday for a while. and it is something that will be in the back of your mind, and his, all the time.
    ok...first of all i am not his anything.i am one of the few..actually the only friend that has stuck around. i talk to him daily...or his family. secondly...i am not a moron. i dont think he'd have to be falling down drunk to have relapsed...or that he'd have a glass in his hand. he actually hid his drinking very well at work. nothin even seemed amiss till he showed up dog ass drunk. i mean...he chewed halls cough drops alot.....but his behavoir at work never seemed drunk till this last time. nothing tipped us off...so i dont think i agree with the fact that you said i could recognize that he had relapsed bc he'd have a drink in his hand and he'd be drunk...bc that...is not how he was before. i can see why some friends do walk away. i am here trying to get some insight to help somebody that is a friend. so....i am sorry that you think all the nurses and doctors that worked with him for years are idiots.....by not recognizing he had a problem. i am sorry i get accused of being something more than a concerned friend. i take his calls. i take his family's calls. i take his kids calls. now how much of it is 100% true i dont know.but...i take their calls. this is why i was asking about him being able to visit family out of town. geez.......maybe you didnt mean it like that but 1. i am actually a decent person trying to help a friend...nothing else. he doesnt have alot of support and when his family leaves it will be even less. didnt know i was going to get accused of all kinda things bc i was trying to get info. i am not a moron.
    and...this is a good guy. has always helped people. patients with no money come in......and the kids are there with nothing to eat...he goes to mcd's and gets them food. pregnant pt comes in with no money to get home after a abusive husband gets carted off to jail for breaking her ribs...he buys her a cab fare home.
    and from what i have read.....it seems like this is always a struggle. so your demons dont ever go away....they just hibernate....and hopefully never awake and that is what i meant. not that they are struggling each day not to relapse....just that it is probably good to have someone who is educated on the topic.....and not having hibernating bears to deal with.but again...i am not a moron....nor were the other dr's and nurses.
    Last edit by Keysnurse2008 on Jul 3, '09
  12. by   Magsulfate
    Once he is sober, you will finally see what he looks like being sober. THen... you will notice the difference when he starts drinking again. Has he stopped drinking? If so, he should look different to you. Notice the subtle differences, and as the days go on you will notice more and more.. the differences I am speaking of are him acting "better'... he will be more alert, and a better person to be around.

    Now, I'm not saying that he wasn't a good person to be around to begin with, but he will be different and better. I can't tell you how, you will just notice.

    Since he has been drinking for so long.. and he functioned well while drinking, you probably seen him as normal. But now you will FINALLY see him as normal and you should be able to see a difference if he starts drinking again.

    THAT is what I am talking about. I am not calling you a MORON or any other word. I am not attacking you for being ANYTHING. I just know that tpapn will not just divulge confidential information to JUST ANYONE.

    Now we all know where you stand. If you will take a breath and read my post again, I was not calling you any names. There seems to be something wrong though, and maybe you should look into that.
  13. by   jackstem
    Quote from keysnurse2008
    ok...first of all i am not his anything.i am one of the few..actually the only friend that has stuck around. i talk to him daily...or his family. secondly...i am not a moron. i dont think he'd have to be falling down drunk to have relapsed...or that he'd have a glass in his hand. he actually hid his drinking very well at work. nothin even seemed amiss till he showed up dog ass drunk. i mean...he chewed halls cough drops alot.....but his behavoir at work never seemed drunk till this last time. nothing tipped us off...so i dont think i agree with the fact that you said i could recognize that he had relapsed bc he'd have a drink in his hand and he'd be drunk...bc that...is not how he was before. i can see why some friends do walk away. i am here trying to get some insight to help somebody that is a friend. so....i am sorry that you think all the nurses and doctors that worked with him for years are idiots.....by not recognizing he had a problem. i am sorry i get accused of being something more than a concerned friend. i take his calls. i take his family's calls. i take his kids calls. now how much of it is 100% true i dont know.but...i take their calls. this is why i was asking about him being able to visit family out of town. geez.......maybe you didnt mean it like that but 1. i am actually a decent person trying to help a friend...nothing else. he doesnt have alot of support and when his family leaves it will be even less. didnt know i was going to get accused of all kinda things bc i was trying to get info. i am not a moron.
    and...this is a good guy. has always helped people. patients with no money come in......and the kids are there with nothing to eat...he goes to mcd's and gets them food. pregnant pt comes in with no money to get home after a abusive husband gets carted off to jail for breaking her ribs...he buys her a cab fare home.
    and from what i have read.....it seems like this is always a struggle. so your demons dont ever go away....they just hibernate....and hopefully never awake and that is what i meant. not that they are struggling each day not to relapse....just that it is probably good to have someone who is educated on the topic.....and not having hibernating bears to deal with.but again...i am not a moron....nor were the other dr's and nurses.
    no one has called you a moron, or implied you are a moron. it's wonderful that he has a friend who is concerned and willing to be there, however there is a limit to the kind of a information that can or should be shared in this type of forum, which is the reason i suggested you pm some of us for further discussion. it's also the reason i suggested the readings i did.

    i have no doubt your friend is a good man. he's got a bad disease that alters who he is. without appropriate help, and significant work on his part, this disease has the ability to kill him. however, you will be unable to learn enough here, or in books, to save him. at this point, i strongly recommend you begin to attend al-anon meetings and begin to read their material. you cannot help your friend by becoming obsessed with learning everything you can in the next couple of weeks. you cannot control him or his disease. you cannot get him to accept treatment, or any of the things the board will require of him. if he's "in the system", they will deal with him in the manner necessary.

    in order to be "helpful" for your friend, learn how to detach in order to not be manipulated, learn more about the disease, evidence based treatment philosophies, the purpose of tpapn, their "philosophy", etc. help his family realize they are ill as well and they will benefit from participation the family program and attending al anon.

    jack

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