Male Nurses/female Patients

[ern91]

I'm interested in knowing if anyone has the issue of male nurses refusing to perform certain nursing functions simply because they are male. Having worked in a large teaching hospital and smaller community hospitals, there seems to be a huge difference. In the teaching hospital, male nurses did everything a patient needed, regardless of gender. In the smaller community hospitals, the male nurses sought out female nurses to take care of all manner of female patient's hygiene, all gyn exams ,and anything else a female patient needed. Have we become such a litigous society that we base our practice on gender? Do you find yourself taking care of your male colleagues patients as well as your own simply because they are afraid to touch their female patients?

[mfdteacher, BSN]

I have to agree that litigation looms large over the males in nursing. I have witnessed quite a bit of inappropriate behavoir from female nurses and I've had my bottom patted more than once by my coworkers or heard comments directed at my anatomy or sex life. Doesn't bother me a bit, I know it's all in good fun butif I did anything like that, I'd be risking sexual harrassment penalties. When I was in school ( a state university) males were not taught to cath female patients ("you'll allways have someone to do that for you"). I was chewed out for taking my pants down to low for IM injection practice. I thought we were supposed to be professionals and perform any task or procedure without regard to gender, unfortunately that's not what we were taught. And how many of the female nurses ever uttered the famous line, " I think male nurses are great but I wouldn't want one taking care of me"? Now as an old man of fiftythree working in ER I wonder about the adolescent girls that I have to cath or assist in a gyn exam. From some, not all, I see some discomfort at the bearded guy doing these things to them. I've found the only way to get around it is to just be confident and assured in whatever you're doing and it generally goes okay.

[ICURNGUY]

I am a male and will be graduating soon. One of my worst fears is being accused or suspected of improper procedures, and not realizing what I may, or may not, have done was incorrect. With law suites and greedy people there may be accusations that are not ligitimate. I don't want to be that sheep.

I enjoy helping people and making them feel better, physically and spiritualy. I am a big tough looking guy and I worry that I may be judged based on that. I like peds, but that is one of my fears, as well, with children. Parents look at me already dealing with their child, so I want to avoid any possiblity of having any problems.

[bigjay]

This is an interesting discussion and one I've had before. My response is different now than it would've been when I was less experienced in nursing.

Initially my response would've been that it's completely discriminatory to have me not do care or procedures because I'm a man. When I would run into these situations I took it quite personally and it really bothered me. I felt that it didn't matter what my sex was, a nurse is a nurse, right?

Now I realize that these are my feelings but those of my patients may be different and I need to respect them. Nursing is about trust and building relationships. It needs to come naturally and can't be forced. So if Mrs. X isn't comfortable with a man doing her cath, so be it. I happen to be a man as well as a nurse so me doing it isn't going to work. I'll just go and get a co-worker to do it and do them a favor at some point. If it's an issue with all her care, I'll ask my CN to do a swap. I don't take it personally anymore because it's not about me, it's about their beliefs and comfort level.

I find it doesn't come up very frequently now anyway. I'm always very professional and confidant in my approach so generally patients feel quite comfortable with me. That's the main thing. You'll get the vibe from those that aren't comfortable and that's when I ask. Otherwise I just explain what I'm going to do and go forward unless I get the feeling the patient or family is uncomfortable.

[Works2xs]

I think the dynamic of how patients react to nurses is well covered. Regardless of what the nurse might think is "right", patients have the right to exercise their own autonomy in whatever form they choose. I think that we, as nurses in general, respond to those requests with grace and acceptance.

Regarding the legal issues, if it is policy for one sex to have a chaperone for a procedure, it should be that way for all. Being on the wrong end of a lawsuit should be seen as an equal opportunity risk.

Where I think additional scrutiny/consideration should be applied is with respect to how nurses react to each other and how management responds to either sex. In my time as a student, I was on the receiving end of actions that struck me as odd. "Do you mind if a male nurse does xyz?" It certainly is a nice thing to ask, but shouldn't it also be the rule when a female nurse is going to do something with a male patient? And if it isn't necessary for one, it shouldn't be necessary for the other - regardless of whatever "trend" might be in vogue regarding sexual attitudes, likelihoods, or proclivities. If it is "good sense" to announce that male will be in attendance for some procedure involving a female patient, then the same announcement should be made for the converse. Why?

Because as more men enter the profession, the patients will be increasingly faced with a new (possibly) health care situation. If they have any level of doubt about how to act, what to expect, or what is acceptable, they will take their cues from their immediate environment. If the female nurses and managers act differently toward their male coworkers/staff, then the patients will begin to expect something different from male care givers. When my presence is given special notice (do you mind if a male does this) and then woman is just allowed to walk into any situation without prior notice, it telegraphs to the patient that something different is to be expected from the men in the profession.

With male representation as low as it is in nursing, having a male care giver can be a new experience. We, as a profession, will be setting the tone for how our patients will perceive what can be expected from men. Since part of the nursing role is that of educator, let's teach our patients by example. Let's set that tone by expecting the same level of professionalism, ability, and protection from unwarrented law suits, etc, regardless of chromosonal differences. Let's set the expectation amongst ourselves and we just might find patients taking their cues from us.

[jb2u, ASN, RN]

This is an interesting discussion and one I've had before. My response is different now than it would've been when I was less experienced in nursing.

Initially my response would've been that it's completely discriminatory to have me not do care or procedures because I'm a man. When I would run into these situations I took it quite personally and it really bothered me. I felt that it didn't matter what my sex was, a nurse is a nurse, right?

Well, your initial response is correct. It IS discrimination. You should take it personally when someone treats you as a predator JUST because you are a man. I think IF you were to say to that pt..."that's o.k., women are too emotional for me to take care of anyway", That pt would be upset, right? OF COURSE, because you just made a generalization about her GENDER...then WHY should it be ok for women to generalize about our gender?

Now I realize that these are my feelings but those of my patients may be different and I need to respect them. Nursing is about trust and building relationships. It needs to come naturally and can't be forced. So if Mrs. X isn't comfortable with a man doing her cath, so be it. I happen to be a man as well as a nurse so me doing it isn't going to work. I'll just go and get a co-worker to do it and do them a favor at some point. If it's an issue with all her care, I'll ask my CN to do a swap. I don't take it personally anymore because it's not about me, it's about their beliefs and comfort level.

I find it doesn't come up very frequently now anyway. I'm always very professional and confidant in my approach so generally patients feel quite comfortable with me. That's the main thing. You'll get the vibe from those that aren't comfortable and that's when I ask. Otherwise I just explain what I'm going to do and go forward unless I get the feeling the patient or family is uncomfortable.

I agree 100%. We must build trust, but we can't do that by running to get a female everytime that we have "intimate" care that needs to be done on a female pt. We do need to respect the pt and their wishes, as they also must respect the nurse. I do think that as more men enter nursing, this will become less and less of a problem. BUT, for now, we should not just accept such discriminatory attitudes about our gender as being "ok, that's what the pt wants." I am NOT saying that we should force care on any pt, but we have a duty to EDUCATE our pts on the fact that men are professional, only a MINORITY amount of men are predators, men DO care, and WE don't like being treated with discrimination just as a women would not like it.

I am MAN...hear me ROAR! :lol2:

Jay

[Roy Fokker, BSN, RN]

I agree 100%. We must build trust, but we can't do that by running to get a female everytime that we have "intimate" care that needs to be done on a female pt. We do need to respect the pt and their wishes, as they also must respect the nurse. I do think that as more men enter nursing, this will become less and less of a problem. BUT, for now, we should not just accept such discriminatory attitudes about our gender as being "ok, that's what the pt wants." I am NOT saying that we should force care on any pt, but we have a duty to EDUCATE our pts on the fact that men are professional, only a MINORITY amount of men are predators, men DO care, and WE don't like being treated with discrimination just as a women would not like it.

BRAV-O! :)

[leslie :-D]

I find it doesn't come up very frequently now anyway. I'm always very professional and confidant in my approach so generally patients feel quite comfortable with me. That's the main thing. You'll get the vibe from those that aren't comfortable and that's when I ask. Otherwise I just explain what I'm going to do and go forward unless I get the feeling the patient or family is uncomfortable.

i'm not sure i would automatically offer a same-gender nurse at the first sign of discomfort.

rather, i would explore my pt's fears and see if i couldn't abate them.

then, if the pt requested same-gender nurse, of course i would oblige to extent possible.

while we all recognize that men entering the nsg profession is one of the answers to our nsg shortage, it's still important to acknowledge that this has been a female-dominated profession for centuries.

and so, we are not going to randomly reverse these biases.

it's going to take decades.

so if a pt requests a same-gender nurse for a personal and invasive procedure, it's not about us and our competencies, and how it's discriminatory and how it's unfair and this and that....

it really is about the pt.

i don't know how many times i've been treated disrespectfully by a male doctor, but my male colleague gets the punch-in-your-shoulder camaraderie by the same doctor.

or my male colleague who has the same background and experience but gets paid more than i do.

stereotypes and preconceived behaviors take time to undo.

we all know it's unfair, it's illegal, it's discrimination.

i just feel strongly that when patients want a same-gender nurse, it is not the time to take this personally.

again, it's about them, not us.

leslie

[KeithEMU]

When I was in school ( a state university) males were not taught to cath female patients ("you'll always have someone to do that for you").

This is very discriminatory. How are we as men supposed to be prepared to do our jobs if we are not trained how to do them? I would wonder what the proper way to handle this would be. I think I would find the head of the nursing department at my school and ask them why they think it is acceptable for me to not be trained as fully as the women in the program. I would want to know why they are trained to cath men and I was not trained to cath women. I would want them to assume responsibility (possibly monetary) if a hospital did not hire me because I was not trained properly. Would I phrase it that harshly... not at first, but I would make sure I was getting the education I PAID for. I would make sure I was fully trained to enter this profession.

To the women that are mad that men don't do, or attempt to do these procedures, maybe YOU need to go to the schools as well and ask about why you are discriminated against by the schools training the men to pass off, unnecessarily, their jobs to you.

Problems change FIRST in education. We want to change the patient's view, but when the school personnel are not educated, or educating, that is the first thing that needs to change.

[bigjay]

i'm not sure i would automatically offer a same-gender nurse at the first sign of discomfort.

rather, i would explore my pt's fears and see if i couldn't abate them.

then, if the pt requested same-gender nurse, of course i would oblige to extent possible.

I definately do this in these cases. It's the first sign of the "I need a woman" response rather than the first sign of discomfort that leads to getting a female nurse. At that point I will generally re-state that I'm a nurse just like the women are. I work in a very multi-cultural community and often it's a cultural/religous requirement. Like I said, it's rare now that it happens but generally I choose the route which will make the patient feel most comfortable rather than worrying about getting my own feelings bruised.

while we all recognize that men entering the nsg profession is one of the answers to our nsg shortage, it's still important to acknowledge that this has been a female-dominated profession for centuries.

and so, we are not going to randomly reverse these biases.

it's going to take decades.

so if a pt requests a same-gender nurse for a personal and invasive procedure, it's not about us and our competencies, and how it's discriminatory and how it's unfair and this and that....

it really is about the pt.

i don't know how many times i've been treated disrespectfully by a male doctor, but my male colleague gets the punch-in-your-shoulder camaraderie by the same doctor.

or my male colleague who has the same background and experience but gets paid more than i do.

stereotypes and preconceived behaviors take time to undo.

we all know it's unfair, it's illegal, it's discrimination.

i just feel strongly that when patients want a same-gender nurse, it is not the time to take this personally.

again, it's about them, not us.

leslie

Agreed. Bottom line is I do what patients feel most comfortable with as resources allow. Is it right? No. Should it make any difference what reproductive parts I have? No. To some people it does though and we have to deal with it as professionals.

[bigjay]

Well, your initial response is correct. It IS discrimination. You should take it personally when someone treats you as a predator JUST because you are a man. I think IF you were to say to that pt..."that's o.k., women are too emotional for me to take care of anyway", That pt would be upset, right? OF COURSE, because you just made a generalization about her GENDER...then WHY should it be ok for women to generalize about our gender?

I agree 100%. We must build trust, but we can't do that by running to get a female everytime that we have "intimate" care that needs to be done on a female pt. We do need to respect the pt and their wishes, as they also must respect the nurse. I do think that as more men enter nursing, this will become less and less of a problem. BUT, for now, we should not just accept such discriminatory attitudes about our gender as being "ok, that's what the pt wants." I am NOT saying that we should force care on any pt, but we have a duty to EDUCATE our pts on the fact that men are professional, only a MINORITY amount of men are predators, men DO care, and WE don't like being treated with discrimination just as a women would not like it.

I am MAN...hear me ROAR! :lol2:

Jay

I think you're overblowing the "predator" part a bit. Wanting a female to perform initimate care is often rooted in cultural and religious issues and it's my insitutions policy to respect those. It may be that that person has had a history of abuse. It may just be that that 98 year old lady has never had another man besides her husband see her naked in her entire life. Whatever the reason we pretty much are stuck respecting it if we can't change it through discussion.

Is it discriminatory? Of course it is. I've often wondered if it would be handled any differently if a pt were to refuse a nurse based on the color of their skin. I think there would be a bit more outrage but the end result would likely be the same, match the pt with someone they're comfortable with to make everyone's life easier.

I do try to educate about men in nursing when I run into these situations. I'll emphasize that I'm a nurse just like any other and I've done whatever I'm doing with them with many other pts, male and female. Sometimes this makes them feel more comfortable, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't and they still don't feel comfortable then I'll get a female colleague. I'll also follow-up to ensure that that pt isn't assigned to a male RN again to prevent further problems. I don't take it personally anymore because it's not about me, it's about the pt's own beliefs and feelings. If I can change them through education that's great. If not, it's their loss, not mine.

When people are hospitalized they are at their most vulnerable and helpless. We need to be sensitive to things that may make them feel worse and try to minimize them as best we can. Forcing them into uncomfortable situations in the name of fairness and equality isn't in their best interests.

[jb2u, ASN, RN]

I think you're overblowing the "predator" part a bit. Wanting a female to perform initimate care is often rooted in cultural and religious issues and it's my insitutions policy to respect those. It may be that that person has had a history of abuse. It may just be that that 98 year old lady has never had another man besides her husband see her naked in her entire life. Whatever the reason we pretty much are stuck respecting it if we can't change it through discussion.

Is it discriminatory? Of course it is. I've often wondered if it would be handled any differently if a pt were to refuse a nurse based on the color of their skin. I think there would be a bit more outrage but the end result would likely be the same, match the pt with someone they're comfortable with to make everyone's life easier.

I do try to educate about men in nursing when I run into these situations. I'll emphasize that I'm a nurse just like any other and I've done whatever I'm doing with them with many other pts, male and female. Sometimes this makes them feel more comfortable, sometimes it doesn't. If it doesn't and they still don't feel comfortable then I'll get a female colleague. I'll also follow-up to ensure that that pt isn't assigned to a male RN again to prevent further problems. I don't take it personally anymore because it's not about me, it's about the pt's own beliefs and feelings. If I can change them through education that's great. If not, it's their loss, not mine.

When people are hospitalized they are at their most vulnerable and helpless. We need to be sensitive to things that may make them feel worse and try to minimize them as best we can. Forcing them into uncomfortable situations in the name of fairness and equality isn't in their best interests.

Don't get me wrong...I AGREE with you! I think we both want what is best for our pts, and we both don't want our pts to be uncomfortable. I have went on several occasions and got a female to care for one of my pts. Do I like it? NO, but I do it FOR the pt's sense of security/respect for beliefs.

That being said, the issue still needs to be raised. Where? I don't know. Maybe, we can go on the "Today Show" about it :rotfl:. Together, we can educate the world about "Men in Nursing." :cheers: Personally, this is my "cause." I will write a book about this in the future because A) I am passionate about nursing, and B) I don't believe discrimination in any form is acceptable.

And yes, I have personally witnessed a pt not want a minority nurse and the NM stance was "So what, refuse care if you want, but SHE is your nurse today!" The NM had compassion for this nurse. This nurse that works so hard, gives so much, just to be treated with such racial bigotry was stood up for. Why should it be that much different with sexist bigotry/ingnorance. IF it is not about them thinking that we are sexual predators then WHY are they so willing to "expose" themselves to the MD's that walk into the room? What about the man who went door to door saying he was an Dr. and offered free Breast exams? I bet if he said "I'm a nurse, the door would have been slammed in his face. And Yes, I was taught how to educate/instruct pts on BSE's in my nursing program. The point is the thought of the word "Doctor" makes people open up, but the word "nurse" makes them say..."oh, I want a female to give me the bedpan."

No, I don't think that, AT THAT MOMENT, is the right time to educate the pt on men in nursing. We should build the trust. I say let's do it now. Let's educate the public now that there are men in nursing, we do provide intimate care, and we are not predators. We are just as PROFESSIONAL and Caring as that Doctor that they admire so much. Let's do it BEFORE they even enter the hospital. I truly believe, through the conversations that I have had with female nurses that I work with, that they do not even realize that, in fact, what they are doing is discrimination. They never even thought of it that way, but once it's pointed out, they say "Wow, I never realized that."

By the way, BigJay, I am 100% sure you are a very caring, professional nurse. And, I do understand your point.

Sincerely,

Jay

[nursemike, ASN, RN]

I think it's important not to read too much into a patient asking for a female. It has happened to me a couple of times that a female patient was willing for me to do everything but bath and bedpan, which our aides usually do, anyway. I'm sure the issue was more to do with the patient's own modesty than any thought that I was some sort of predator. And I have been asked to start or dc Foleys on a couple of male patients who were uncomfortable with a female. (One was eighteen, and another was a prisoner under guard--both instances where being handled by a female was apt to provoke an inappropriate but involuntary response.)

Getting back to the OP, I think this thread shows clearly that a lot of us are not only not willing to palm our work off on our female colleagues, but even a bit offended when not allowed to do the same work as they do.