Male Nurses/female Patients

[ern91]

I'm interested in knowing if anyone has the issue of male nurses refusing to perform certain nursing functions simply because they are male. Having worked in a large teaching hospital and smaller community hospitals, there seems to be a huge difference. In the teaching hospital, male nurses did everything a patient needed, regardless of gender. In the smaller community hospitals, the male nurses sought out female nurses to take care of all manner of female patient's hygiene, all gyn exams ,and anything else a female patient needed. Have we become such a litigous society that we base our practice on gender? Do you find yourself taking care of your male colleagues patients as well as your own simply because they are afraid to touch their female patients?

[dougRN2BE]

so just so i completely understand...you actually think that this is the scenario.........

a head of an hr department tells all the recruiters...if a man sends in his resume the pay is $24/hr...if a women sends in her resume it's $20.50.

or maybe this scenario....

if a man will accept $20 does the recruiter say.."oh no MR. so-and-so your a man you get $24/hr.".....somehow i don't think so. i think that IF the employer can get the man for less then he will. this means that gender is NOT the issue but rather what the applicant will ACCEPT.

however, i could be wrong....if anyone can find me an hr manual that states that women will be offered less than a man...i will post my apology right here on this website

ive checked and all the student nurses at my hospital get the same rate of pay ....i feel shafted; do they not realize i'm a man

ok enough sarcasim...really we could go back and forth on this one, but until someone can prove to me that gender was the reason that someone gets more pay, i will not believe it. NO company is willing to pay an employee more than they have to.

sincerely,

jay

Of course it is not this simplistic. Even before the feminist movements, I'm not sure it was ever this blatant. Sexism, racism and other forms of discrimination are rarely written out in policy (sometimes they are). I think good points have been made about women tending to negotiate less and therefore take what they get. There is a whole field of study about this...women very often tend to have an upswing in the intonation of their voice at the last syllable of the word said in a sentence thus giving the impression of uncertainty. Women at all female colleges tend to do better in classes because it is quite often that women yield the floor to a man whenever he starts talking...due to socialization. Now, this certainly does NOT apply to everyone and thank goodness it is changing, but sexism and pay discrimination is incredibly pervasive in our society, still today. The second shift of work that women have been (and to a great extent, still are) expected to do affects a woman's opportunity in the workplace. My point in providing a few examples is simply to show that it is not in any HR manual...or the policy of any recruiter...but it happens. Women in 2005 still made far less than male counterparts (on national averages) for the same work. African-American women make even less than European-american women and still less that European-american men.

I actually would find it refreshing if someone did state a policy in their manuals about wage gaps, because at least they would be owning up to it. Too often, people stick their head in the sand and assume that women have the same work/wage opportunities as men. Wish it were the case, but it isn't *yet*.

[dougRN2BE]

BTW, if all the student nurses you work with make the same, that is fantastic! Goes to show that the wage gap isn't rearing its ugly head everywhere...things are certainly getting better!

[NHNurseMan]

Interesting thread. At 47, and entering pre-nursing in Jan 07, I tend to the cautious (some would say paranoid) side. I'm not about to put myself in a position where impropriety could be accused. If my daughter is going to bring a friend home, I insist that my wife be home. In my present job, I never go into a room with a female coworker without leaving the door open. As a nurse, I intend to never work with a female patient without a door being open, or if involved in a sensitive procedure, a female chaperone being present. It may be a double-standard, but with men "Guilty Until Proven Innocent, and Then STILL Guilty" seems to pervade our society.

Yes we do live in a society that seems hell bent for litigation, but quite honestly, I believe that the majority of our patients care about one thing, being cared for in a professional manner. I am man hear me roar!!!!! I hope that that isn't construed as me being a threatening man. For goodness sake didn't we all go into this profession to care for and help other regardless of their sex, color, orientation, religion, and whatever other divisive thing we can come up with.

Yes I am a new nurse, 2 days new to be exact. These two days have been the most amazing, tiring, thought provoking days in my life. This morning I had to give my first suppository without someone over my shoulder making sure the finger went in the right place (by the way it was a male I was administering the suppository to) the interesting thing was not what he said but what I was thinking, how would I feel if someone was sticking their finger up my...then I realized that I would be thinking I hope this guy/gal knows what the hell they are doing. You know what? I did know what I was doing and placed the suppository with the most respect and care that I could for the patient. The patient didn't care that I was a man, he cared that I was a caring skilled nurse. That's all;) ;)

Later in the day I had to give a very constipated woman an enema. Again I thought to myself how would I feel if some guy/gal was going to stick something up my....Then i realized this little old lady, who's belly is killing her just wants some relief; I being her nurse all day was that someone, she didn't care that I was a man, just that I was a caring nurse, I explained what I was going to do and did it. Crazy thing was she thanked me at the end of the day for being so caring and trying to make her comfortable.

You know what??? In neither of these situations did I feel it necessary to have a "chaperone" present. I'm sure that many of you will shake your head and say how naive I am, but the bottom line is the litigators and those looking for a situation ripe for litigation are going to find their buffet somewhere. Chaperone or not.

For those men out there asking if a female would rather have someone of a different sex, why do you do that? I do understand the little old lady that says she wants a different nurse because she's a little shy. Why ask someone? Nothing peeved me more than the nurse that would ask a patient during clinicals "Would you mind if a MALE student observed this procedure" or the worst "you don't want a male student to assist you do you?".

This profession is everything that I could have ever wanted, a chance to practice altruism while utilizing my brain. Don't get me wrong I know it sucks sometimes, in fact to hear some of my coworkers most of the time :lol2: But I'm gonna ride this wave of joy I'm on for as long as I can.

Funny ending to this rant.

My wife asked me how the woman felt about having a guy give her the enema, I answered her I'm not a guy I'm a nurse.

Thank You all for coming before me and to those who follow enjoy the ride.

[Corvette Guy]

i would like to say, as far as the comment that male nurses are paid more than female nurses....i do not believe that is a gender thing, but rather a matter of a male is more likely to ask for what they want.

as an example, i was talking with some female student nurses at my hospital and some female new grads. they were saying how much this facililty starts you off at. i stated i "will not accept that." they were shocked and the thought of asking for more never crossed their mind. now, i know that i may not get what i want, but there are other facilities in the area. the point is...they accept what is offered and i choose to accept what i am worth. this could explain the difference in pay. if they found out that i made $X/hr more than they did, they would surely ASSUME that i was payed more because i am a man, and thus the false belief that "men are paid more would continue."

and as far as men getting more respect...well i can't speak for all men, but i believe i get respect because i do not gossip, i work hard, don't talk back, and do my job well. and if someone doesn't know me....i don't LET them disrespect me.

that's what i think,

jay

Jay, I tend to think near, or leans toward your line of thinking.

:beer:

[jb2u, ASN, RN]

Of course it is not this simplistic. Even before the feminist movements, I'm not sure it was ever this blatant. Sexism, racism and other forms of discrimination are rarely written out in policy (sometimes they are). I think good points have been made about women tending to negotiate less and therefore take what they get. There is a whole field of study about this...women very often tend to have an upswing in the intonation of their voice at the last syllable of the word said in a sentence thus giving the impression of uncertainty. Women at all female colleges tend to do better in classes because it is quite often that women yield the floor to a man whenever he starts talking...due to socialization. Now, this certainly does NOT apply to everyone and thank goodness it is changing, but sexism and pay discrimination is incredibly pervasive in our society, still today. The second shift of work that women have been (and to a great extent, still are) expected to do affects a woman's opportunity in the workplace. My point in providing a few examples is simply to show that it is not in any HR manual...or the policy of any recruiter...but it happens. Women in 2005 still made far less than male counterparts (on national averages) for the same work. African-American women make even less than European-american women and still less that European-american men.

I actually would find it refreshing if someone did state a policy in their manuals about wage gaps, because at least they would be owning up to it. Too often, people stick their head in the sand and assume that women have the same work/wage opportunities as men. Wish it were the case, but it isn't *yet*.

i think it odd that you list several logical reasons for the pay difference bet/male and female employees and then dismiss it by saying..."but sexism in pay scales are still pervasive in our society."

as far as "african american" women being paid less...well think about it like this..."african american" women as a whole come from a lower socioECONOMIC background....so just like when i became a medical assistant i was extremely disappointed at the pay of $7/hr., but the many "african american" ladies in my class were extremely HAPPY with the thought of making $7/hr. many of them previously made minimum wage. so, again, this WOULD explain why there is a difference in pay between "african americans" and "europeon americans." most people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds (regardless of "race") think nurses making $20/hr are rich, but those from middle/upper socioeconomics will either say they are just getting by or looked down upon by the upper socioeconomic class. If we had one million foreign/domestic nurses (and no unions) that would be willing to work for $10/hr. then you can bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow the average wage for an RN would be $10/hr. the market pays ONLY what it HAS to regardless of gender/race.

i think simplistic is not what i am doing/saying...it is trying to say the difference in pay is based on gender/race that is simplistic. because, after all, i've given several examples as to why there is a difference, but still people try to say "yea, all that's true, BUT i still think it is about race/gender."

who's really being simplistic? the person that looks to see what OTHER factors come into play OR the person that regardless of the other factors says "no,no,no it's just about race/gender." ???

again, the debate could go on and on...but i believe that gender is NOT the issue but rather negotiation skills, the confidence to ask for more, and the concept of what your value is. i do NOT want to live in a society where everyone is payed the same wage. I AM A PROUD CAPITALIST AND AMERICAN! if someone is AFRAID to ask for more then that's on them, but do not dismiss my negotiation skills, security, and feeling of worth by saying "oh you are paid more just because you are a man."

sincerely,

jay (capitalist, american, future nurse )

[dougRN2BE]

i think it odd that you list several logical reasons for the pay difference bet/male and female employees and then dismiss it by saying..."but sexism in pay scales are still pervasive in our society."

as far as "african american" women being paid less...well think about it like this..."african american" women as a whole come from a lower socioECONOMIC background....so just like when i became a medical assistant i was extremely disappointed at the pay of $7/hr., but the many "african american" ladies in my class were extremely HAPPY with the thought of making $7/hr. many of them previously made minimum wage. so, again, this WOULD explain why there is a difference in pay between "african americans" and "europeon americans." most people from lower socioeconomic backgrounds (regardless of "race") think nurses making $20/hr are rich, but those from middle/upper socioeconomics will either say they are just getting by or looked down upon by the upper socioeconomic class. If we had one million foreign/domestic nurses (and no unions) that would be willing to work for $10/hr. then you can bet your bottom dollar that tomorrow the average wage for an RN would be $10/hr. the market pays ONLY what it HAS to regardless of gender/race.

i think simplistic is not what i am doing/saying...it is trying to say the difference in pay is based on gender/race that is simplistic. because, after all, i've given several examples as to why there is a difference, but still people try to say "yea, all that's true, BUT i still think it is about race/gender."

who's really being simplistic? the person that looks to see what OTHER factors come into play OR the person that regardless of the other factors says "no,no,no it's just about race/gender." ???

again, the debate could go on and on...but i believe that gender is NOT the issue but rather negotiation skills, the confidence to ask for more, and the concept of what your value is. i do NOT want to live in a society where everyone is payed the same wage. I AM A PROUD CAPITALIST AND AMERICAN! if someone is AFRAID to ask for more then that's on them, but do not dismiss my negotiation skills, security, and feeling of worth by saying "oh you are paid more just because you are a man."

sincerely,

jay (capitalist, american, future nurse )

Hi Jay,

Interesting points...difference of opinion and perspective I think!

sincerely,

doug (communist, feminist, citizen of the world, future nurse)

P.S.-At least we have one thing in common!

[jb2u, ASN, RN]

doug (communist, feminist, citizen of the world, future nurse)

P.S.-At least we have one thing in common!

:lol2: now THAT is funny :lol2:

regards,

jay

[Jasano]

What's with this whole "boo hoo us poor men" attitude? Please don't tell me you actually believe it!

Dollar for dollar - a man still makes more money, for the same job than a woman --- EVEN in a profession like Nursing.

Person for person - there are more men employed in the workforce than women --- despite the quotas for women.

I don't buy this 'disadvantaged men in our society' baloney for one second.

I don't deny that many of the policies of the feminist movement have been misguided (some have been down right stupid). But there have been many positive outcomes from women's advocacy groups.

Stop and think for a minute please!

These are actually falsehoods that you're spouting. Dollar for dollar, women and men make the SAME amount of money. Hour for Hour women CHOOSE to work more part-time and therefore lose out on some of the career advancement. In fact, studies have shown that men and women MAKE PRECISELY THE SAME AMOUNT of $, when allowances are made for women who've chosen to stay at home with their families. Women who've chosen career over families, make the same dollar for dollar amounts.

Morever, women are earning considerably more university degrees than men, living considerably longer, and enjoying government quotas for jobs, education and promotion in a variety of fields. Even young boys are not immune to the discrimination and are doing much more poorly in language and reading skills than ever before, (in fact in terms of achievement in general) and are far more likely to flunk out at both the elementary and high school levels - these conditions the direct result of feminist changes to educational curriculum favouring young girls.

(oh and these statements are true north and south of the border strangely enough)

Now a few items which make this a personal issue for me (aside from the fact that I'm a male nurse).

#1. Before I knew what I wanted to do for a living, I thought about being a police officer and foolishly invested thousands of my own dollars in a Law and Security program. I thought at the time, well yes, there are quotas, but even if I can't get into policing, there are other avenues. WELL, one day, a representative from a major bank came into class to speak ONLY to the females of the class regarding a $50, 000. credit card investigation job.

Males taking law and security would not be eligible for the position because they were males. Bee in my bonet # 1.

#2. I later thought I would try my hand at automechanics (turns out I like cars, but not getting dirty), but anyway, my brother and I each paid over a $1000.00 tuition for the program. When we completed the program, we found that no one was taking apprentices - there were no girls in our program. Now before you get excited and go off on a feminist tirade, that's because there was a separate FEMALE ONLY program being run alongside ours wherein the women paid $0.00 for tuition, and recieved job placement assistance upon completion.

#3. I was in a government office, looking for jobs in nursing - I was working with several agencies, but because I was a man, was not being offered very many hours. In fact, applying to one agency I was told that I could not be given 30 hours a week, even though they had just finished telling me that their entire staff was overworked - doing upwards of 60 hours a week in many cases. The problem? They couldn't offer as many hours to a "man". But I digress, so I was in the government office, looking for additional part-time and casual jobs to supplement my income when I came across a document entitled - "doctoral programs for women". Thinking I might like to advance my education at the university level (I was only an LPN at the time), I noted that the government was willing to pay all expenses for university attendance - the catch>? It was a program only open to WOMEN. Oh that's two bees in that bonet.

So yes, I think feminism has progressed well past any concept of fairness, into what I would term, "the preferential me first, give me.. give me.. mode".

[dougRN2BE]

These are actually falsehoods that you're spouting. Dollar for dollar, women and men make the SAME amount of money. Hour for Hour women CHOOSE to work more part-time and therefore lose out on some of the career advancement. In fact, studies have shown that men and women MAKE PRECISELY THE SAME AMOUNT of $, when allowances are made for women who've chosen to stay at home with their families. Women who've chosen career over families, make the same dollar for dollar amounts.

Morever, women are earning considerably more university degrees than men, living considerably longer, and enjoying government quotas for jobs, education and promotion in a variety of fields. Even young boys are not immune to the discrimination and are doing much more poorly in language and reading skills than ever before, (in fact in terms of achievement in general) and are far more likely to flunk out at both the elementary and high school levels - these conditions the direct result of feminist changes to educational curriculum favouring young girls.

(oh and these statements are true north and south of the border strangely enough)

Now a few items which make this a personal issue for me (aside from the fact that I'm a male nurse).

#1. Before I knew what I wanted to do for a living, I thought about being a police officer and foolishly invested thousands of my own dollars in a Law and Security program. I thought at the time, well yes, there are quotas, but even if I can't get into policing, there are other avenues. WELL, one day, a representative from a major bank came into class to speak ONLY to the females of the class regarding a $50, 000. credit card investigation job.

Males taking law and security would not be eligible for the position because they were males. Bee in my bonet # 1.

#2. I later thought I would try my hand at automechanics (turns out I like cars, but not getting dirty), but anyway, my brother and I each paid over a $1000.00 tuition for the program. When we completed the program, we found that no one was taking apprentices - there were no girls in our program. Now before you get excited and go off on a feminist tirade, that's because there was a separate FEMALE ONLY program being run alongside ours wherein the women paid $0.00 for tuition, and recieved job placement assistance upon completion.

#3. I was in a government office, looking for jobs in nursing - I was working with several agencies, but because I was a man, was not being offered very many hours. In fact, applying to one agency I was told that I could not be given 30 hours a week, even though they had just finished telling me that their entire staff was overworked - doing upwards of 60 hours a week in many cases. The problem? They couldn't offer as many hours to a "man". But I digress, so I was in the government office, looking for additional part-time and casual jobs to supplement my income when I came across a document entitled - "doctoral programs for women". Thinking I might like to advance my education at the university level (I was only an LPN at the time), I noted that the government was willing to pay all expenses for university attendance - the catch>? It was a program only open to WOMEN. Oh that's two bees in that bonet.

So yes, I think feminism has progressed well past any concept of fairness, into what I would term, "the preferential me first, give me.. give me.. mode".

LOL...when looking at history one notices the swarms of bees in the bonnets of women. While I respect your right to your opinion, and realize many people feel this way, I think it is based on an emotional response instead of a review of history and current facts. But I will put a disclaimer here that this is only my opinion...and doesn't mean I think it is superior to yours.

Besides, I don't want to kill the laughter from Jay's last post...we were finally agreeing!

[jb2u, ASN, RN]

LOL...when looking at history one notices the swarms of bees in the bonnets of women. While I respect your right to your opinion, and realize many people feel this way, I think it is based on an emotional response instead of a review of history and current facts. But I will put a disclaimer here that this is only my opinion...and doesn't mean I think it is superior to yours.

Besides, I don't want to kill the laughter from Jay's last post...we were finally agreeing!

:lol2: jay is still laughing :lol2:

i think we turned this thread from males abusing their female coworkers by getting them to do all our work to women getting paid less than a man. i'll have to go back and see where exactly that happened!

the great thing about this site is the same thing that is great about America....it is ok if we disagree, it's our right to. once upon a time someone looked upon women struggling in the work place and said "hey that's not fair", but i do think it's time to take a second look and see if times have changed. But it needs to be by someone that does not have an agenda either way!

still laughing,

jay

[jb2u, ASN, RN]

What's with this whole "boo hoo us poor men" attitude? Please don't tell me you actually believe it!

Dollar for dollar - a man still makes more money, for the same job than a woman --- EVEN in a profession like Nursing.

Person for person - there are more men employed in the workforce than women --- despite the quotas for women.

I don't buy this 'disadvantaged men in our society' baloney for one second.

I don't deny that many of the policies of the feminist movement have been misguided (some have been down right stupid). But there have been many positive outcomes from women's advocacy groups.

Stop and think for a minute please!

i found the culprit on page 12, i just followed the trail

:paw: :paw: :paw: :sofahider

...ok mr. fokker :trout: (that's for getting us off topic )

still laughing,

jay

[Roy Fokker, BSN, RN]

LOL

It happens a lot around here guys - threads tend to meander.

But you're right - let us nudge it back on track :)