Should patients be allowed to refuse LPNs and CNAs?

Nurses LPN/LVN

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Last night on our med/surg unit, we had an elderly woman who was in wiht consitpation. Very stable patient, vitals within normal limits, fairly negative past medical history, no home meds, independent with ADLs...again, a very stable patient. No BM for 8 days...came in to ER via private vehicle with complaints of abdominal pain.

We are a small rural hospital, average patient census of 10. Last night we had nine patients. This woman decided that she did not want any LPNs or CNAs in her room. OK...we try to accomodate such requests, but on nights like this, we have one RN on med/surg and one in ER. ER was pretty busy, so the ER nurse did not have time to come to the floor to help. Other than the charge RN, we had two LPNs and one CNA...staffing well above what we normally have. Certainly, the RN had time to care for this patient, but this woman didn't even want the CNA or one of the LPNs to do the simple things like taking her vital signs, refilling her water pitcher, or emptying her commode. So...the RN not only was charge over 9 patients, but had to do all cares for this patient, simply because she did not want anyone but an RN.

I agree 100% that there should be an RN available for all patients, but not all patients require an RN as their primary nurse. In a small rural area like this one, sometimes you have to take an LPN, especially if you are stable and have a predictable outcome. Had we been busier or had an unstable patient, would we have been out of line to explain to this patient that there was an RN available if anything unexpected happened, but that due to staffing reasons, her assigned nurse would be an LPN? This happens every now and then and usually we are able to accomodate the requests of RNs only, but what about when we just can't do it?

Gee I just had a thought since the Pt wants a higher level of care couldn't the hospitial charge for it and tell the Pt ,you do realize this won't be covered under your insurance. Example would be like ,when they charge extra for a CNA sitter in the room.Have PT sign an admission sheet upon admitting.I think If you told the Pt that they would be paying out of pocket. They would back off with the request for RN only.

I know in Home health They pay more for an RN vist then a CNA and rightfully so.Just a thought. :coollook:

If you sign the admission sheet and are of sound mind and body, then you acknowledge the policies of the hospital. Yes, a patient has rights, but this situation does not encompass them. QUOTE]

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Gee I just had a thought since the Pt wants a higher level of care couldn't the hospitial charge for it and tell the Pt ,you do realize this won't be covered under your insurance. Example would be like ,when they charge extra for a CNA sitter in the room.Have PT sign an admission sheet upon admitting.I think If you told the Pt that they would be paying out of pocket. They would back off with the request for RN only.

I know in Home health They pay more for an RN vist then a CNA and rightfully so.Just a thought. :coollook:

If you sign the admission sheet and are of sound mind and body, then you acknowledge the policies of the hospital. Yes, a patient has rights, but this situation does not encompass them. QUOTE]

She would not receive a higher level of care if the RN is assigned to her, her needs are what they are and that's the level of care she will receive.

Yes, in home care an LPN costs more than a CNA and a RN costs more than an LPN but by the same thought, the pt will not receive a higher level of care if the RN makes the visit for the CNA. The needs are as they are. Staffing does not change pt needs.

Specializes in Oncology/Haemetology/HIV.
"unless there is some kind of personality conflict between patient and caregiver, or if a female patient prefers a female caregiver as opposed to a male,"

(puts on asbestos suit and climbs on soapbox)

i'm sorry but this attitude should be done away with. if male patients insisted on only male nurses they would most often be out of luck. i don't see any reason that women should be catered to in this fashion. if i ever need a foley placed in me or to have my backside wiped, then i will be thrilled to have a careing competent nurse whether it is a male or female. i put up with this crap and yes it is crap when i did my ob rotation.

(climbs down from soapbox but leaves asbestos suit on)

sorry to disappoint but....

as a patient of of an abusive male md when i was younger, i do prefer pap and gyn workups done by a female practitioner. if i were in labor i would prefer no nonessential personnel, male or female in the room. and i would stipulate that in advance and have made special arrangements to have a female practitioner for gyn/pap workups. does it take extra time..yes...but it is my choice.

i have no problem with getting shots/ivs or shower assistance from male nurses. and if i am hurting enough, i am sure that a male inserting a foley would be okay. i have a ten year record with my current md, so he does do my paps, but then we have established a record of trust.

i have had male patients request a male nurse insert their foley. i call the proper department and chart accordingly. but i do warn them about the wait. frequently, after waiting a while, they change their minds.

sorry, but you do not know your patient's history, male or female. and they may not tell it to you. but you should give them the appropriate options. and, yes, if stable, they can opt to wait or go somewhere else for care.

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

Just curious. What do MEN do when they want to refuse a FEMALE caregiver, esp a nurse?

No patients shouldn't be allowed to refuse LPN's and CNA's period. If they want only RN's then they should call a nurses registry and pay for their own RN.

Specializes in Nursing Professional Development.

Some people have posted that the patient would have no basis upon which to file a lawsuit. A person does not need a basis upon which to file a suit -- Whether the suit is justified or not is decided by the courts. That's what the trial is about. The person "accused" has suffered the expense and distress of the suit even if they are found completely innocent. That's the whole purpose behind "nuisance suits." They are filed and/or threatened to bully someone into doing what you want -- not because you will them in court -- but because you will cause the other person pain in their efforts to defend themselves.

And she would probably not choose to file the suit over something so trivial as empying the commode. She would find some other, more ambiguous aspect of care and would claim "emotional distress" or some such thing. She might lose the case, but that's not the point. She will have gotten her revenge by making the people involved suffer.

I like the suggestions that people offered such as offering her a transfer to another facility... or perhaps giving her the contact information for agencies through which she could hire a private nurse ... or saying "I'm sorry, but the RN is not available at the moment. Would you rather wait or would you like me to help you?" when possible.

But forcing someone to accept care they do not want is asking for trouble. In the short-term, it might satisfy your understandable feelings of outrage -- but in the long-term, it might come at too high a price.

llg

Specializes in Specializes in L/D, newborn, GYN, LTC, Dialysis.

So let me see if I have this straight, llg-----let her control the whole scene then, to avoid a potential frivolous lawsuit? Well, it has been MY experience, if a person will sue in a case like this, she will not be satisifed anyhow with any aspect of care, and might likely sue for a dozen other reasons. She is a control freak! What will you do to satisfy people like that? Giving in makes it worse.

I still say you have no basis (lawsuit risk) to simply give in to her, possibly compromising care for other patients. She is NOT their ONLY patient. And, She has NO right to refuse just because "she wants to". I guess this is what gets me, the "entitlement" of people today and our willingness to suck up to them and give them their way.

I like the response from someone else. Let her wait then. Telling her " your nurse is busy right now, can I help you" puts the damn ball in HER court, then. But I don't agree w/letting the threat of a lawsuit prevent us from making appropriate assignments. Let one do this, and others follow. Soon, they all may refuse then what. Let them hire private duty RN's then I guess?

Specializes in Public Health, DEI.
Some people have posted that the patient would have no basis upon which to file a lawsuit. A person does not need a basis upon which to file a suit -- Whether the suit is justified or not is decided by the courts. That's what the trial is about. The person "accused" has suffered the expense and distress of the suit even if they are found completely innocent. That's the whole purpose behind "nuisance suits." They are filed and/or threatened to bully someone into doing what you want -- not because you will them in court -- but because you will cause the other person pain in their efforts to defend themselves.

And she would probably not choose to file the suit over something so trivial as empying the commode. She would find some other, more ambiguous aspect of care and would claim "emotional distress" or some such thing. She might lose the case, but that's not the point. She will have gotten her revenge by making the people involved suffer.

I like the suggestions that people offered such as offering her a transfer to another facility... or perhaps giving her the contact information for agencies through which she could hire a private nurse ... or saying "I'm sorry, but the RN is not available at the moment. Would you rather wait or would you like me to help you?" when possible.

But forcing someone to accept care they do not want is asking for trouble. In the short-term, it might satisfy your understandable feelings of outrage -- but in the long-term, it might come at too high a price.

llg

Actually, it is not entirely true that a person needs no basis on which to file a lawsuit. This patient may feel she has a basis upon which to file suit, but the court may find otherwise and dismiss it without a trial. It happens all the time. Of course, if the case does appear to be headed to trial, the insurer may elect to settle. Unfortunately, that happens all the time, too. That is why our employers maintain coverage. For us to be held individually liable, there would need to be gross negligence. I asked before, and I will ask again, please tell me where this gross negligence is??? This woman is entitled to competent care. She isn't entitled to handling the facility's adminsitrative duties, such as scheduling who covers which patient. You have also not addressed the REAL concern here, that giving in to this woman could well mean delaying the care of a patient who needs treatment that an LPN or CNA cannot provide. If I have to choose between the possibility of being dragged into court on a complaint that this woman IS NOT GOING TO WIN, or causing harm to a patient who needs my attention (and possibly being dragged into court on a complaint that that patient could very well win), it really is a no-brainer.

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Specializes in Public Health, DEI.
I disagree. You haven't given any leeway at all for any of the patients feelings.

In some situations patients should have the right to request certain personnel.

However, I think that requesting an RN to empty bedpans, and assist with bathing is unreasonable.

But if the patient wanted a female CNA as opposed to a male CNA, for such things as bathing, personal pericare, or a female LPN for placing foleys, etc, as opposed to a male LPN etc, I think her request should be given every consideration and staff should attempt to accomodate that much.

I'm talking about what might cause the patient to feel embarrassed, and give her emotional distress.

I am very modest, I just could not have a male nurse placing a foley in me.

I just would be extremely embarrassed. Why force the patient to go thru that??? That's unreasonable on staff's part, and IMHO, could be grounds for greivance.

Don't tell me, that nurses can't switch some things to accommodate patients requests. Say for instance, if her primary care nurse were male, and she needed a foley, and patient preferred female to do the procedure, I would be willing to go do that to accommodate patient. Why would that be a problem?

But I don't think the patient has the right either to dictate staffing... saying she must have an RN for every little thing.

I agree. I have nothing against attempting to accommodate patient's feelings and requests. The problem comes when a patient thinks they can demand a higher level of care than they need (such as monopolizing the only RN's time) thus denying other patients their right to receive competent care.

Specializes in Med/Surg, Geriatrics.
This happens every now and then and usually we are able to accomodate the requests of RNs only, but what about when we just can't do it?

Offer them the names of local staffing agencies which can provide private-duty RN's or tell them to get their butts out and go to the nearest big hospital .

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