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Lawsuit after patient kicks nurse

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divaRN* specializes in ICU, medsurg/tele.

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Yeah all this. I have 43 residents on my floor. I worked at a place with 50. And I'm the only LPN. We can't restrain people, medically or physically, so we send them someplace that can.

We are looked down on for "wanting" to medicate/restrain out of control "little old ladies or men". They can be very strong. I've had people say to me "Oh your job is to visit little old ladies all day. How sweet." Yeah ok sometimes. Not always.

Can't you restrain if you get a doctor's order?

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talaxandra specializes in Medical.

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Unionization will never happen with nurses. Nurses are too quick to "eat our young " and throw each other under the bus.
Maybe not in the US, but unions have worked very well in Australia, where this 'eating our young' isn't at all prevalent (the only pleace I've come across the term or the concept is on this site). As of the end of September this year there were 85,516 nurses registered in Victoria (my state), approximately 70% of whom are ANF members.

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It has been my experience, that the males who go into nursing are one of two types- they are either go getters, forward thinkers, who quickly leave to get Masters Degrees, etc, move into management, or go into advance practice programs, like CRNA, NP etc. In other words, they get as far away from bedside nursing as fast as they can.

The ones who are left, are as bad, if not worse, than the females who go into nursing. They will quickly tell you, that THEY cannot take a chance, and buck management, try to form/join a union, because, -THEY ARE SUPPORTING THEIR FAMILY, AND THEIR WIFE WANTS TO BE A STAY AT HOME MOM.

They are the male versions of the, "martry marys", who go into nursing.

Few of these male nurses bring anything to the table that will effect any substantial change in the nursing profession.

What this means, in a nutshell, is that if WE want any change in the nursing profession, WE, the females, need to be the ones to bring that change- no more waiting for the male nurses in shining armor, riding the white horse, to help us fight the big bad wolf.

WE need to put on our big girl panties and do what needs to be done to improve our profession.

JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN ,BSN, CCRN

Somewhere in the PACNW

Lindarn, I really hope you are about to retire because your attitude towards men is one we really don't need. It is straight out of "back in the day".

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males make up about a fourth of our nursing staff. not one of us has ever gotten into any trouble for standing up to management or refusing to be bullied or abused by patients, families or doctors. in fact, out female cno says she would like to have a few more of us. she also has noticed that since we started coming in some of the female nurse have started getting "growing spines" as well. you might want to think twice before you so casually dismiss male nurses from your nwo.

:up:

that's what i predict will happen, too. i have worked in all-male workplaces for years. if you are there to do a job, do the job. in many respects, i think men are better able to ignore conflicts until the people promoting them simply give up and go away, lol. they don't expect to be liked by everyone, nor do they expect to like everyone there. but they seem to agree to disagree, and focus on the tasks that need to be done, and not so much on the personalities. if you work with a group of people, it's a fact that you'll like some and dislike some, but you work together in spite of that. women need to remember that just because someone else does/says whatever, you don't need to always react, or even acknowledge it. just toss a wisecrack, grin, and walk away. i think many women make their own stress, because they are worriers.

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Lindarn, I really hope you are about to retire because your attitude towards men is one we really don't need. It is straight out of "back in the day".

I am sorry that you disagree. And if that is not what it is like where your work. But the REALITY IS, that where I have worked in the PACNW, BOTH hospitals have men who have acted like I described. The acted like they invented the word, weeney.

As I stated in my above thread, the men were worse than the women. I do not have an,"attitude", towards men. This is what I have experienced here. I did not make it up, nor imagine how the male nurses acted in a staff nurse environment/workplace.

Yes, it was rather discouraging. That is why I left.

JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Somewhere in the PACNW

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DizzyLizzyNurse has 12 years experience and specializes in Peds Medical Floor.

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Can't you restrain if you get a doctor's order?

It's extremely difficult to get one. And a lot of the time if there is one it has to be something they can get themselves out of. Hospitals and nursing homes are two completely different animals. Everyone's afraid that we would just go around tying people up for our convenience....well that is what used to happen I guess. But it definitely crosses the line into ridiculous. We have people who fall repeatedly and instead of restraining them or trying a new med or doing something different, the staff is blamed for not "watching them closely enough." Yeah like I said, there's me as the LPN and two CNAs for 43 people.

I would much rather keep them at the nursing home and take care of the problem there instead of sending them out. No offense to hospitals but the poster who said something about residents coming back with bed sores is right. And it's because the two concentrate on different things.

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I can't speak for anyone but me. But, I will tell you this, if any patient that was AOx3 assaulted me in any fashion, the next thing rounding the corner of the unit would be the police. In or out of a hospital, a company, a store, doesn't matter...assault is assault,and I would press criminal charges, and not think twice about it. I also agree that those who are entering this profession as career changers, are the ones that have the ability to stop the nonsense. And that is what it is...........Hospitals expect BSNs and MSNs, certifications....and yet expect us to be waitresses, and tolerate verbal abuse. Not me. And they know it. I will not engage a patient. I will not yell back. I will not respond. I will give them one opportunity to allow me to proceed with their medical treatment. Short of that, I exit the room,and I will not try again. A simple "patient refused" is all I note. I let the MD know. Done. Over. Does the profession want "hand maidens", waitresses, punching bags......or does it want professionally trained medical people. Choice is theirs. The hospitals keep spouting about "customer satisfaction". Thats fine.......thats great. But I don't need or want customers that abuse me. I will not take it. No one can go into a store, a restaurant, a company.....and speak to its staff as we are spoken to. We would be tossed out in a heartbeat. We all know it. WE probably would even be arrested. So why should RN's take it? We shouldn't. But those who have said the "martry mary" mentality have hit it dead on.......Its perfect. I expect to be treated with basic, common human decency.....period. No more, no less. I have no need or desire to cater to the whims of everyone just because they are sick. My job is not to make you dependent upon me or anyone else! Hospitals are places to receive medical treatment, not spa treatment.......and behave like adults, not spoiled little brats. Those of us who continue to take it, have no one to blame but the one in the mirror. It truly is that simple.

One patient made sexual comments just the other day. I told him it was not acceptable and he was to stop. He continued and complained to my charge. My charge told me to back off, and just let it slide. I told her NO. It is illegal. It is harrassment. It will not be tolerated. It was that simple. I used the phrase that stops all...........hostile work environment. Yes, i would seek an attorney if fired. In a heartbeat. No problem.

I won't take it, and don't feel sorry for those that do. The martry marys (love that phrase) truly need to examine why they hold themselves in such low disregard to tolerate being belittled.

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To the ER nurse....yes, I understand that you are overburdened and at times, the pt coming in from the LTC facility for violence takes resources away from other pts, but as the other post stated that you can use restraints and also, you have a Doc right there for a stat order of Ativan or Haldol. It is VERY hard to get iv prn meds for LTC pts. Most MD's dont want to hear from the LTC in the middle of the night and if they do, wont give orders for meds because they feel that the LTC cant take care of a oversediated pt properly (at least in the ER you have intubation equipment, RT's, Narcan, ETC at your disposal). And just for the record, I work in MED/SURG in a hospital and not in a LTC facility.

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dudette10 has 9 years experience as a MSN, RN and specializes in Med/Surg, Academics.

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We have people who fall repeatedly and instead of restraining them or trying a new med or doing something different, the staff is blamed for not "watching them closely enough." Yeah like I said, there's me as the LPN and two CNAs for 43 people.

However, the "you aren't watching them closely enough" is absolutely true because you just don't have the staff to do that! That's why I'm in favor of a whole new model of dementia care, and it goes beyond just staffing. It needs to also take into account the layout of a facility and built-in safety mechanisms.

It happened with inpatient psych wards, didn't it? The layout of a psych ward is unlike the layout of any other medical floor, and it's designed for the special needs of the population and the healthcare workers. Substance abuse centers are designed to look more like hotels than a medical institutions.

The same kind of innovative thinking must be applied in long-term dementia care to enable all of us to think beyond chemical and physical restraints.

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Leda1st has 9 years experience and specializes in ER, Cardiac, Hospice, Hyperbaric, Float.

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Posted by diane227:

"There were times when I would have to insist that the police take charges on some of these people that assaulted the staff. Often, because they had a psych history, the police would not arrest them. I would have to call the watch commander with a threat of calling the newspaper if they refused to arrest the person. We understood that some patients could not help their actions but others certainly could and needed to be taken to task. If I was around when it happened, I just would not tolerate it."

Diane, may I come work for you? One of the biggest parts of the problem is that most managers/administrators are NOT like you. In my experience working in many different settings, it is RARE (if ever) to find management/administration who will stand behind their nurses. In the scenario you described, I promise you that had I been the nurse who was bitten and then reflexively slapped the patient, my butt would have been written up, suspended, or fired. I have had ONE manager who backed me. One. A patient with AIDS bit me, and I smacked his face to get his teeth off me. I was scared to death about that incident, but she backed me, and was very concerned about my health and the danger this patient posed to me. She talked with him about the fact that I was trying to help him, and after her talk, the patient actually apologized to me. No charges were filed (which they probably should have been), but I was just grateful that I had a manager willing to hear MY SIDE of the story. Yes, I should have gently removed his teeth from my arm, but I panicked, and I popped his face to get him off of me. HOWEVER - HE was the one who assaulted ME, and it was only by the grace of God that when this happened I was working for a manager who "had my back" so to speak.

By the way, that manager got out of management several months after that. She started doing PRN stuff and getting paid the same amount of money to work less (36 hours per week versus the 60+ or so she was doing in management) and put up with less crap. I cried. She was awesome. We need more managers with the nerve/guts/balls/whatever to stand behind us nurses "in the field". Like you, diane 227!

:yeah:

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Leda1st has 9 years experience and specializes in ER, Cardiac, Hospice, Hyperbaric, Float.

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To belgarion:

Bravo to you! I want to work in your unit. No offense to my fellow females, but frankly the advances that HAVE been made in the nursing profession (mainly better pay) have been made primarily BECAUSE males have entered the profession. Most of the men I have worked with in nursing have been great. One of the reasons I love critical care and ER is BECAUSE you find a lot more men in those areas. Working where there is some testosterone to balance out the estrogen (and yes, I am estrogen) makes for a much better working environment. Less back-stabbing, whining, eating of young, etc. I wish we women would get a clue and "man up" a bit. (Now, I will wait for the attacks I am sure will come my way.)

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talaxandra specializes in Medical.

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The advances that have been made in nursing in Australia (better pay, the world's first ratios in Australia, career structure) have been due to collective action; in Victoria, at least, all our nursing union leaders have been women.

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