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Job Satisfaction Declining for Nurses, Survey Says

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Fly Guy JB has 11 years experience as a MSN, RN, EMT-P and specializes in Emergency, Critical Care, Pre-Hospital,.

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MadpeysRN specializes in MedSurg, OR, Cardiac step down.

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explain it then. tell me what outcomes you can generate with your patient an adn trained nurse can not. answer the (trick) question.

or do you agree with my friend who says its "zen-ish" and can't be put into words.

i will assume "explain it then" is a shortened version of "well, this is is how i feel, how would you describe it?" and not take that statement out of context.

i was responding to this, "i have news for the bsn grads who think they offer anything at the bedside that adns don't" and this "it's probably a form of denial, denial brought on by the fact that you know your education has gone to waste because you aren't doing anything extra away from the bedside.........." because that is what i disagree with.

bsn gives you a theoretical and scientific foundation (the "anything extra" part) we can apply at the bedside in addition to the hands on skills we learn from the second term on in lab and clinicals (same as adn).

i cannot tell you what outcomes i could generate-i have not been an adn student or and rn in my life.

i do agree with the zen-ish part, however i do not think it is that hard.

we have time spent on how to be a professional nurse, relating to being highly sensitive to our patients and everyone around us.

we learn how to be culturally competent, how to hear the patient, how to understand, how to treat the patients spiritual needs, how to be sympathetic, how to understand to look for those needs, how to check our biases, our stereotypes at the door, how to be respectful of others, how to appreciate the cna's, the secretaries, and everyone else we work with. how to recognize anxiety, including our own, how do deal with value conflicts while respecting different veiwpoints.

we learn pharmacology, ( i have heard some adn programs do not have this they just have drug calc-not sure if it's true or not)

how to treat a patient as a whole, not just how to do what and when-we get that after we learn the "professional" transition. and imo, for myself, having had these classes-i will be a better nurse because of them, or i definently won't be worse off.

i suppose since rn's educated by adn or bsn, are exactly the same as you claim-outside the conversation aspect, is this all on the job training for adn's?? or is it not pertinant to our job as a healthcare professional, therefore being just a waste of time? i highly doubt it-bsn's wouldn't exist if that were the case.

"i have news for the bsn grads who think they offer anything at the bedside that adns don't. your kidding yourself. it's probably a form of denial, denial brought on by the fact that you know your education has gone to waste because you aren't doing anything extra away from the bedside..........just clock in and clock out and be done."

are you speaking on behalf of all adn grad's? this is an awfully big value statement a bsn grad is likely not to make.

"bsns are more prepared to "enter the conversation" regarding nursing being a profession." isn't this half the battle? :confused:

i am not in competetion with you-i am all for bettering the nursing profession as a whole.

Edited by MadpeysRN

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eriksoln has 15 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in M/S, Travel Nursing, Pulmonary.

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i cannot tell you what outcomes i could generate-i have not been an adn student or and rn in my life.

well, here is the point i was making in broad daylight for ya. my assertion is.........you don't have an answer not because you never worked as an adn (nice side step though) but because there is no answer to be had. and remember, you say you bring something that adns don't sooooo.............actually, you have worked as an adn plus more........according to you. i'm just calling your bluff on that.

i do agree with the zen-ish part, however i do not think it is that hard.

we have time spent on how to be a professional nurse, relating to being highly sensitive to our patients and everyone around us.

we learn how to be culturally competent, how to hear the patient, how to understand, how to treat the patients spiritual needs, how to be sympathetic, how to understand to look for those needs, how to check our biases, our stereotypes at the door, how to be respectful of others, how to appreciate the cna's, the secretaries, and everyone else we work with. how to recognize anxiety, including our own, how do deal with value conflicts while respecting different veiwpoints.

we learn pharmacology, ( i have heard some adn programs do not have this they just have drug calc-not sure if it's true or not)

how to treat a patient as a whole, not just how to do what and when-we get that after we learn the "professional" transition. and imo, for myself, having had these classes-i will be a better nurse because of them, or i definently won't be worse off.

blah blah blah blah blah. lots of lingo, nothing concrete. "we learn how to deal with conflicts, how to appreciate cnas, we learn culture competence".....blah blah blah. two things to consider:

1. you did not mention one thing not taught in adn programs other than pharmacology and yes, most adn programs now require that too. my old school does anyway.

2. if all this added up to anything of value..............you would have an answer to the imposing question: what can you do for your patient at the bedside that an adn nurse can not? what outcome can you generate that an adn prepared nurse would not?

but.......ahhhhh, well........we've seen your answer to that question already.

i suppose since rn's educated by adn or bsn, are exactly the same as you claim-outside the conversation aspect, is this all on the job training for adn's?? or is it not pertinant to our job as a healthcare professional, therefore being just a waste of time? i highly doubt it-bsn's wouldn't exist if that were the case.

yes. that is pretty much what i am saying. it's a waste of time unless you take advantage of the "away from the bedside" opportunities to use your education. if you only go to work, punch in, punch out and call it a day.......eh, adn would have cost you less and you'd be doing the exact same thing with the same outcomes for your patients.

are you speaking on behalf of all adn grad's? this is an awfully big value statement a bsn grad is likely not to make.

"bsns are more prepared to "enter the conversation" regarding nursing being a profession." isn't this half the battle? :confused:

more than half the battle actually. we as nurses, more than any other profession in the healthcare field, keep pt. care and quality outcomes as our focus. if we lose our voice, the patient loses much of their voice too. so, if we have a better standing, they have better outcomes.

i am not in competetion with you-i am all for bettering the nursing profession as a whole.

i'm all for bettering the profession too. but part of that is, as you put it......."learning to check our biases and stereotypes at the door."

one of the biggest biases with nursing at this point in time is that bsns offer something at the bedside that adns don't. that is a joke, to say the least. and to top it off, this bias is fed by schools who want people to spend more for their degree and by healthcare admin. who want to make cosmetic, cost free changes to their staff in hopes of impressing the general public. if bsns really offered anything "extra" that adns didn't, they'd have been offering more money for the bsn trained nurse and all sorts of incentives for people to take that route instead of adn. but........they didn't. why? cause it doesn't change much of anything other than cosmetics. instead, they waited for the opportunity to require bsns without having to pay for them. the recession came, jobs are scarce and everything is more competitive. so, they offer the same old wages and benefits but require a higher degree for it. doesn't sound to me like they truly believe bsns have much to offer beyond what they already get with adns.

i'm moving on to get my bsn because i see and appreciate my away from the bedside opportunities to invoke change and have my voice be heard. i feel i will be better heard with the bsn education. that, in a nutshell (plus job security) is why i decided getting my bsn is worth it. i do not believe however that i will suddenly have magic wands in my scrubs that were not there before that i wave around and all of a sudden........my co-workers respect me and my patients understand their eduction better and i see things hours before they happen. that is the fluff schools push off on people while trying to convince you to sign the dotted line.

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Eriksoln if you continue to beat this dead horse I will be forced to report you to the ASPCA and PETA.:D

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eriksoln has 15 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in M/S, Travel Nursing, Pulmonary.

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Eriksoln if you continue to beat this dead horse I will be forced to report you to the ASPCA and PETA.:D

IDK. Maybe it's me. I just get annoyed when people so boldly pronounce things such as "My BSN makes me a better bedside nurse than ADN trained nurses" and then can't back it up. I mean, I wouldn't throw such statements out then then have nothing to fall back on when someone asks "Why?". Well, at the very least, I'd have more than "Well I don't know cause I've never been a ADN" and "I learned cultural sensitivity in school" to back up my statements anyway.

It's kinda like...........if I say my baseball team is better than yours. Well........I can quote stats, point out how many people are in the all-star game, refer to the win/loss record and make all sorts of arguments as to why it is so. But.........as you can see.....those who claim BSN training makes you better at the bedside have............"Blah blah blah".

Edited by eriksoln

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eriksoln has 15 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in M/S, Travel Nursing, Pulmonary.

2 Articles; 2,636 Posts; 19,716 Profile Views

Eriksoln if you continue to beat this dead horse I will be forced to report you to the ASPCA and PETA.:D

HEY:mad:

I googled those names BTW:madface:

I'm nice to animals. I have two Orange Tabby kittens............Calvin and Hobbes, and they are spoiled to death. So naaaaahhhhhhh:p

<_>

>_>

:eek:Oh. Wait. "Beat a dead horse".................ok, I get it. N/M.:o

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I strongly disagree with the excuse, "not everyone has the time and means to attend a BSN program". The same can be said for medical school, dental school, law school, PT school, OT school, etc. Pts, OTs, Pharmacists have ALL INCREASED THERI ENTRY INTO PRACTICE IN RECENT YEARS!!

There is NO shortage of applicants for these programs. In fact, applications are UP!

How do these potential applicants manage to attend four year of undergrad schooling, and three to four years of post graduate education? Simple- there is no other choice. If there was no other way to become a nurse, other than attend a four year BSN program, ALL POTENTIAL APPLICANTS WOULD FIND A WAY TO MANAGE TO ATTEND SCHOOL FOR FOUR YEARS.

There should then be a 6 month to one year PAID internship tacked on after graduation, to allow new practitioners, to learn how to apply new skills and theory to nursing practice. This is the process of all of the above mentioned health care professionals, who out earn us, and enjoy far more respect and autonomy.

Spare me the, "but nurses are voted number one by people every year", yada, yada, yada, ad nauseum. As we say in Brooklyn, that and $0.50 will get you on the subway. I would be happier of we heard the people on the side, on listserves, in letters to the editor, stating that same sentiment.

In stead, we hear griping about those, "lazy nurses who sit on the computer all day, not doing ANY patient care, and how "overpaid we are since we must only go to school for 4 or 5 months to become an RN", etc.

Seeing that most nurses are not unionized ,we have no ability to go public about how poor working conditions on the patient floors, are leading to terrible outcomes for their loved ones. And management always manges to make to poor outcomes the staff nurse's fault.

We are prevented from going to the very people who could turn the tide in our favor. But too many nurses are afraid to step out of their comfort zone to do the very thing that would greatly improve our conditions. That is doing what teachers have been doing for years- going to the parents when they have complaints, etc concerning the schools. They have very public rallies in very public places, and invite the news, papers, TV stations, etc. And they ALWAYS GET WHAT THEY WANT!!

Folks, its time to put on your "big girl/boy panties", call the National Nurses United, and unionize throughout the country. Take back our profession, and make it what WE want it to be!! And what it should be. Hospital care should be about helping patients get well, and that does no include fancy grans pianos in the lobbies, high paid CEOs, "Customer satisfactions surveys", etc. Health care should be about patients and the available resources, should be directed to the care of the patient, and keeping the health care professionals who provide that care happy and satisfied!! Not the CEOs who contribute NOTHING to positive patient outcomes. But adequate nursing staff does!!

JMHO and my NY $0.02.

Lindarn, RN, BSN, CCRN

Somewhere in the PACNW

Edited by lindarn

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MadpeysRN specializes in MedSurg, OR, Cardiac step down.

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i'm all for bettering the profession too. but part of that is, as you put it......."learning to check our biases and stereotypes at the door."

one of the biggest biases with nursing at this point in time is that bsns offer something at the bedside that adns don't. that is a joke, to say the least. and to top it off, this bias is fed by schools who want people to spend more for their degree and by healthcare admin. who want to make cosmetic, cost free changes to their staff in hopes of impressing the general public. if bsns really offered anything "extra" that adns didn't, they'd have been offering more money for the bsn trained nurse and all sorts of incentives for people to take that route instead of adn. but........they didn't. why? cause it doesn't change much of anything other than cosmetics. instead, they waited for the opportunity to require bsns without having to pay for them. the recession came, jobs are scarce and everything is more competitive. so, they offer the same old wages and benefits but require a higher degree for it. doesn't sound to me like they truly believe bsns have much to offer beyond what they already get with adns.

i'm moving on to get my bsn because i see and appreciate my away from the bedside opportunities to invoke change and have my voice be heard. i feel i will be better heard with the bsn education. that, in a nutshell (plus job security) is why i decided getting my bsn is worth it. i do not believe however that i will suddenly have magic wands in my scrubs that were not there before that i wave around and all of a sudden........my co-workers respect me and my patients understand their eduction better and i see things hours before they happen. that is the fluff schools push off on people while trying to convince you to sign the dotted line.

um, i never claimed to have an answer or tried to side step anything.. i merely took offense your rudeness on claiming to be the judge and jury on the bsn grad's "who must be kidding themselves and in denial" about their choice in education and gave differences in education that could be applied at the bedside if needed (and having all the factual data on differences b/t adn and bsn rn's).

i agree and know that there is not a lot of difference between the 2 other than the things i mentioned and i also agree that some can learn that in the job as you say. i also know there is not a lot of difference in pay between the 2. i have 7 rn's in my family-diploma, adn and bsn educated.

"i was responding to this, "i have news for the bsn grads who think they offer anything at the bedside that adns don't" and this "it's probably a form of denial, denial brought on by the fact that you know your education has gone to waste because you aren't doing anything extra away from the bedside.........." because that is what i disagree with." again. (and because it sounded rather rude-like)

and i disagreed with you because i feel/felt as though i may be better prepared for moral and ethical dilema's at the bedside right out of the gate and for some maybe in the long run, from getting a bsn first (these were the "anything extra" things i thought of), since you asked so politely.

"if all this added up to anything of value" i think all that "lingo" is very valuable and having those extra tools necessary to deal with the emotional rollercoaster we call nursing and a slight advantage yes-instead of getting this on the job. but i guess you are the judge and jury of value too?

never claimed to have facts (like you), or that bsn's could insert caths and iv's just the same or better than adn's which is obviously what you were hoping for. gsssh.

i merely chose bsn because it is a goal of mine to have a bachelors and a ms, so there was no conviencing me of fluff to sign the "dotted line"

and since you said explain it then, (which i originally invisoned you doing with your hands on your hips rocking your head from shoulder to shouler-*but then i though nah i may be wrong because type is so easy to take out of context, but i am beginnning to think not*) i explained why i felt that way.

"you did not mention one thing not taught in adn programs " so are you suggesting adn's are getting the exact education i am getting as a bsn, in addition to all their extra clinical skills? i am sure there is not a lot of theory and scientific foundation that teaches all the things i mentioned in adn programs, from reading this forum and talking to people-i may be wrong. (ever claimed to be the expert that you seemingly are since you know for sure bsn's are a waste of time, in educational differences either) because as i stated before i am not adn student-so how would i know what are in the programs.

"blah blah blah blah blah. lots of lingo, nothing concrete. "we learn how to deal with conflicts, how to appreciate cnas, we learn culture competence".....blah blah blah. two things to consider:" (rude)

are your 2 things the only thing "to consider"? seems like a narrow perspective to me. and it also , seems as though you just wanted to make your point and beat me up in the process-so as you did these 2 things-score for you.

i don't know where you got the idea that i was going to debate with you that bsn nurse is better in all aspects of bedside...:uhoh3:

"as with this thread, i got no answers. most changed the subject very quickly, others tried very hard to talk with big words and complicate the issue........but it always came back to there being no real answer for the question"

you must be a pro at spewing out all your facts, and certain of them then.

and if you are all for bettering the profession as well, i certainly hope you take a different approach in dealing with patients and teaching new nurses, because the way you talked to me does nothing to better the profession.

ok, so i just read your other rude post-perhaps this is where the difference comes into b/t the two.

you want stat's, here's your stats to back it up

"conclusion in hospitals with higher proportions of nurses educated at the baccalaureate level or higher, surgical patients experienced lower mortality and failure-to-rescue rates. "

http://jama.ama-assn.org/content/290/12/1617.full

by extension, the odds of patients dying in hospitals in which 60% of the nurses held bsn versus hospitals in which 20% (or 40% fewer) of the nurses were bsn prepared would be lower by 15% (ie, (1-0.964) × 100).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/pmc2586978/

i was trying to be nice but now you've just mad me mad. i never suggested i was better than or would be because i went the bsn route or anything of the sort. now i think you just got issues or a major chip that needs dealing with-perhaps when you go get your bsn you'll figure out how to do that. no wonder nurses have a bad rep of eating their young, it must be when they come across people like you. you have no compassion at all. now i think you are just mad because you don't have a bsn- a compassionate knowledgable person would say hey i am gald your getting your bsn, maybe you can bring something new to the table to better nursing. but in your idk maybe its me post, you are clearly defensive of adn's, idk know why. maybe you feel threatened. a good nurse shouldn't. so you can spin your reason for going back and getting one however you want-i don't buy it. and you just remember who was rude first.

so go ahead and be arrogant with your bla bla bla's and ahhh well's and chew me up and spit me out again, but know you are not a very nice person and i am done. i have a very hard time imagining that you are a very compassionate nurse.

Edited by NRSKarenRN
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eriksoln has 15 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in M/S, Travel Nursing, Pulmonary.

2 Articles; 2,636 Posts; 19,716 Profile Views

Any Star Wars fans out there? Remember Han's quote:

"Must've hit pretty close to the truth to get her all rielded up like that"

BSN nurses take it so hard when they find out they aren't all that, don't they?

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TheCommuter has 10 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in Case mgmt., rehab, (CRRN), LTC & psych.

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Although I plan to pursue a BSN degree, I actually agree with some of this guy's points:

Degrees in "basket weaving" are a byproduct of the Reagan -era wholesale dismantling of America's manufacturing base. There was a time in this country when there was room for everyone-- including basket weavers. See, we actually made things. When that was taken from us, people thought putting a degree in front of a trade might mean something, sort of like putting a B.S. in front of nursing.

Without solid, gainful employment for the masses, families worried that "Johnny" would be doomed to a life of working fast food. Of course, colleges and universities quickly saw the demand and jumped to fill it.

I know many people with college degrees; I know very few people who are "college material."

In every graduating high school class, you have a bell-shaped curve: 3 on this side you cannot help no matter what you do, 5 on the right whom you cannot keep down (college material), and a whole boatload of people in the middle-- average Joes, if you will, who are the backbone of society. Nurses, policemen, firemen, tradesmen, and factory workers are this middle group.

Historically, and traditionally, nursing was a trade that you apprenticed at half wages for for one year. Somewhere, somebody decided to offer Associate degrees in nursing. Now as funny as that is, offering a B.S. in nursing is funnier still. Florence Nightingale is spinning in her grave. LOL

Education is a living thing. People who are college material will have read all about history and read all the classical literature long before taking a seat in a classroom because they crave and desire knowledge for its own sake, not because of a piece of paper at the end of 4 years.

It borders on the criminal to offer B.S.N. degrees for a field that is a skilled trade. Might as well offer B.S. degrees in plumbing.

 

One thing my classmates and I quickly came to an agreement on: there should be no nursing schools. We all, everyone of us, saw that this was a vocation to be learned "on the job." Apprenticeship, and apprenticeship only, is the way one becomes a nurse.

Forcing those in the middle of the bell-shaped curve to commit a bunch of useless facts to short-term memory in order to pass tests and earn a degree is nothing more than a money maker.

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You know what is even funnier than the BSN vs ADN debate? The fact that I have a BS degree and will hopefully one day (I'm just starting here) will have my R.N. License....but that is still not as 'good as' having a BSN! If the BSN program is supposedly made up of two years of general education that enlightens us and broadens our thinking (which I have done), and two years of basically the same clinical education as an ADN or diploma program (will have done), how can having a BS degree not in nursing be THAT DIFFERENT from having a BSN?

I will be doing a diploma program, mainly because they are still very prevalent in my area with higher NCLEX pass rates than the cc's that offer ADN programs. I am not doing an accelerated BSN because I've been there, done that...twice. If needed, I will go on for my MSN, but that will be determined after I see where and what I'd like to do in nursing.

But it irritates me when I hear that I will not be considered as educated I don't have the BSN, but 'only' a BS degre and an rn. And some colleges will want me to take 'bridge classes' to get my Actual BSN. Money grab if you ask me. Seems ridiculous to me. At least our local hospital seems to agree as I just saw a posting for management that has 'BSN or BS and RN required'.

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You know what is even funnier than the BSN vs ADN debate? The fact that I have a BS degree and will hopefully one day (I'm just starting here) will have my R.N. License....but that is still not as 'good as' having a BSN! If the BSN program is supposedly made up of two years of general education that enlightens us and broadens our thinking (which I have done), and two years of basically the same clinical education as an ADN or diploma program (will have done), how can having a BS degree not in nursing be THAT DIFFERENT from having a BSN?

I will be doing a diploma program, mainly because they are still very prevalent in my area with higher NCLEX pass rates than the cc's that offer ADN programs. I am not doing an accelerated BSN because I've been there, done that...twice. If needed, I will go on for my MSN, but that will be determined after I see where and what I'd like to do in nursing.

But it irritates me when I hear that I will not be considered as educated I don't have the BSN, but 'only' a BS degre and an rn. And some colleges will want me to take 'bridge classes' to get my Actual BSN. Money grab if you ask me. Seems ridiculous to me. At least our local hospital seems to agree as I just saw a posting for management that has 'BSN or BS and RN required'.

A large part of any four year degree is the required course work in a particular area aka "major". A BS in accounting, medical science, nurition, community health and so forth do not have the same focus as a nursing major. True there may be some overlap especially for all students in healthcare or related majors but the areas of concentration are still different.

By your logic a nurse would be as qualified to seek a position in a marketing company that advertised for a BofS grad with a major in marketing because she has a four year degree.

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VivaLasViejas has 20 years experience as a ASN, RN and specializes in LTC, assisted living, med-surg, psych.

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As an ADN who's defied the conventional wisdom for years (ADNs are only "technical" nurses, ADNs can't be management etc.), I'm still waiting for the definitive evidence that taking more of the "-ologies", as required by a BSN program, makes one a better nurse. More well-rounded, perhaps, and more knowledgeable about theory, but how does that translate into being more competent at the point of care and becoming a 'big-picture' kind of nurse? Only experience can do that.....experience, and something called "street smarts" which can NOT be taught in a classroom.

I am not against pursuing higher degrees, not even if it's purely for the sake of gaining knowledge that one may or may not ever use. But I defy anyone to tell me that an ADN is incapable of the level of thinking required to solve problems......and that is what nurses do, is it not?

Understanding a patient and using one's knowledge of what makes him/her 'tick' to formulate an effective plan of care isn't rocket science; it only takes a bit of intelligence and a healthy interest in other people. Again, this is "stuff" they don't teach in nursing theory classes; it's common sense, and that is honed over time by encountering the same situations over and over again and learning to think critically in individualizing care.

If I were ten years younger, I'd go for a master's, just because I know I'd enjoy teaching and I'd want to be a clinical instructor. But I'm content in my current job, which includes teaching caregivers and med aides as well as residents and their families, and that's good enough for this lifetime anyway. :D

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