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Is this insubordination? How do I deal with this PSW?

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She sounds like she has some kind of anxiety disorder, or OCD, with her need for this constant reassurance. I would stop answering her questions. You just feed into it every time you do. I would tell her that from now on, you will only answer questions that pertain to her job directly. Say the same phrase each time, such as “not your scope of practice” and nothing more.  If she wants to start arguing about why she needs to know or whatever, just say nothing. Don’t engage. I might suspect you will see some other behavior manifest when you do this, as she might need to fulfill this reassurance need in another way. Just something to watch out for.  Reporting her will only go so far... hard to fire someone for asking too many questions. At the same time, you won’t be fired for not answering questions that do not relate to her job. 

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Most of the time, the managers/directors know exactly what is going on but choose not to do anything about it. Sometimes they like the person you have a problem with so keep that in mind. Definitely push forward and try to do something about it.  The person doesn't respect the director. The director isn't making her. That is your main problem.

Edited by Workitinurfava

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Someone is not doing their job, and it's the Director. 

There is an awful lot of time and energy being taken away from patient care because of this one disruptive, poor performer. 

You are being harassed and spending time trying to work around this person's behavior. At this point she should be in progressive discipline with clear expectations.

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Roll up a newspaper,  smack her on the nose with it while saying a firm "NO"🤣🤣🤣

Edited by NurseAmyG

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I think I would explain to the PSW that she is coming very close to practicing nursing without a license which could land her in court with a possible fine and, if she harmed a patient, jail time if she performed any patient care not covered in her job description.  I would also consistently refuse to answer her inappropriate questions during the work day.  I agree with requiring her to submit her inappropriate questions in writing.  I'd submit them to the director, keep copies in my own records with dates and times, and respond to most of them with some sort of standard comment about needing a license to practice nursing to deal with the issue raised.  I wonder if she has some sort of personality disorder that leads her to rebel against authority by trying to undermine the supervisor's confidence.

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18 hours ago, hgarcia4 said:

Agree with (nearly) everyone else. I'm a CNA and taking pre-reqs for nursing school. I've sometimes asked the RNs or NPs I've worked with about a procedure or decision. BUT I always come at it with the attitude of "I'm just interested to learn" and I have no intention of trying to practice nursing or pick apart a practitioner's decisions in my current role. You're not being egotistical; you are protecting your patients from an arrogant and uneducated non-nurse.

To echo others, I would document *everything* and if HR/your director continue to be unresponsive, I'd ask for a sit-down meeting. In the meantime, put up a wall: tell her "it's not my job to explain that to you"/ "I need to deal with this other patient right now" / "you are not an RN so you cannot perform that task." Be a broken record. Good luck and I hope that management backs you up.

If you're a CNA who's in the process of applying to or attending nursing school, I imagine the nurses at your work are usually glad to answer questions and show you things, time permitting.

But someone who doesn't have time for schooling and thinks her job is some sort of apprenticeship - that's just out to lunch.  This person would not likely do well in nursing school because she doesn't get what she doesn't get.

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15 hours ago, Leader25 said:

What is a PSW???!!

 

A PSW is a personal support worker.  It is equivilant to a CNA.  I have mostly heard Canadian nurses use this term.  

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2 hours ago, TriciaJ said:

But someone who doesn't have time for schooling and thinks her job is some sort of apprenticeship - that's just out to lunch.  This person would not likely do well in nursing school because she doesn't get what she doesn't get.

Couldn't agree more. And most schools have exactly zero tolerance for a student practicing outside their scope, or refusing to respect boundaries set by instructors or God forbid a facility nurse in a clinical. And the idea of this girl in nursing school watching to make sure nurses at her clinicals were "doing things right"? She wouldn't last 10 minutes. 🤣

But I disagree with having her submit questions in writing, or talking with her further about the consequences of her behavior. She's not listening, and way too much time that should be spent on patient care by the PSW and the OP is already being wasted on attempting to manage this chickie. Every time it happens, I'd just say. "We've been over this. That's the kind of question I won't be answering," and then redirect her to a PSW-appropriate task.  I'd keep a quick tick list of times it happens to cover my six in case the excrement hits the air mover, but management already knows what's happening and elects to do nothing. Not OP's problem to fix, just to manage toward least disruption by and maximum productivity out of this subordinate. 

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I'd "like" the above post but I'm maxed out on allowed "reactions for the day".

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On 2/9/2019 at 10:59 AM, NurseAmyG said:

Roll up a newspaper,  smack her on the nose with it while saying a firm "NO"🤣🤣🤣

Got my first laugh of the day! Thanks!

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I've been browsing this site for a while and had to create an account for this thread because I am so disgusted by all you's posts. I'm a personal support worker and I want my voice to be heard. I can tell you that we do know what we're talking about, so you nurses get off your high horse with your my license is better than yours attitude. You may have gone to school for years but we learned on the job how to do things. I can do lots of things as good as or better than the nurses I work with. Nurses don't know their patients half as well as I know them but I don't get paid like they do to push pills and stuff but I'm the one doing the real care. I think you should teach her what she wants to know. She's good at her job, so what harm will it do if she learns how to do yours too. I'd be flattered that she's coming to you because she looks up to you. I think that if you show her how to do stuff, it counts as training. How many of you's watch youtube and learn that way? If it counts for training for the nurses, it counts as training for the PSWs. Period. Nurses like to hide behind scope of practice and other rules so that they can get out of teaching people stuff. Nurses like the ones on this comments are waht's wrong with healthcare today. Y'all are taking advantage of the workers and telling us we're not qualified to do stuff. You make us do tasks that are beneath us just because you can. It's sick. Teach the PSW what she wants to learn, or give her you tube videos to watch because that's the nice thing to do. You're overreacting and making this PSW out to be the evil one when you won't even give her the time of day. I bet being in charge you sit on your chair all day anyway. Our charge nurse is always charting stuff and hardly ever goes in to see patients unless something is wrong and she needs to get up off her butt. I would of reported you to for being rude. If she bothers you that much leave. I can't imagine what you'd do if god forbid you had to change someones brief or something beneath you. Oh wait, y'all probably just say you delegait that. Walk a mile in our shoes before you judge us next time. Our job is a lot harder than that.

 

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