IN CA it is out of scope for an LVN to supervise RN's

leslie :-D · Jun 20, 2004

what in heck are you fuming about??? in massachusetts an lpn acts under her own license in ltc, if that's what you're referring to. destiny, life is too short to get yourself all worked up like this. take some deep cleansing breaths, will you please?

leslie

tiona · Jul 15, 2004

please go to the california nurses association web site to get accurate information about the lvn & rn nursing practice act.
section 70217 nursing service staff (h) (3) of the california code of regulation states "registered nursing personnel shall provide clinical supervision and coordination of the care given by licensed vocational nurses and unlicensed nursing personel" this is not in the lvn authority under scope. :)

i work in ca and i have been trained to be the on-call supervisor in my facility. the rn's don't seem to mind and treat me with respect, which is nice because i often go to them asking for advise about things that i am uncertain about. i work several days every month as nurse supervisor in my facility. thank goodness the rn's there are kind and supportive. we don't have the rn vs lvn battle going on where i work.

Dixiedi · Jul 24, 2004

please go to the california nurses association web site to get accurate information about the lvn & rn nursing practice act.
section 70217 nursing service staff (h) (3) of the california code of regulation states "registered nursing personnel shall provide clinical supervision and coordination of the care given by licensed vocational nurses and unlicensed nursing personel" this is not in the lvn authority under scope. :)

i'm not in cali but i would bet if i took the couple of minutes to go to the bon website and look at the lpn scope of practice i would find that lpns coordinate and supervise cnas. and, in specific situations can act as supervisor in ltc even if there is an rn on staff that shift.

too many nurses misunderstand the definition of facility supervisor and supervision of clinical activities.

also, just because the rn supervises the clinical activities of the lpn, it does not mean that an lpn can never supervise an rn.

say there are 3 nurses, an experienced rn, she is the charge nurse, an experienced lpn, she is assigned her pt load and an inexperienced rn also with her assigned pt load.

the charge nurse is very busy with new orders, a new admission she is going to "take," or any other thing that keeps her busy and the new rn needs to do trach care and change the tube, she's never done it before.

what would be the best action?

the lpn should "attend" or suprvise the new rn to ensure it is done correctly and safely as she is performing this skill that she is unfamiliar with but the lpn has been doing for years that would be supervising, yet it is not against the scope of practice for any of us. it would, imho, be against the scope of the rn to perform this procedure without an experienced nurse present and if an experienced lpn is the only one available, well, the lpn is going to supervise the rn.

i don't know what brought about your post but you really need to calm down. try not to read so much into things, you are going to wear yourself out. supervise is a relative term, there are things the lpn can not do that the rn can but for the vast majority of nursing responsiblities our scopes of practice are much the same.

tiona · Jul 24, 2004

I'm not in Cali but I would bet if I took the couple of minutes to go to the BON website and look at the LPN scope of practice I would find that LPNs coordinate and supervise CNAs. And, in specific situations can act as supervisor in LTC even if there is an RN on staff that shift.
Too many nurses misunderstand the definition of facility supervisor and supervision of clinical activities.
Also, just because the RN supervises the clinical activities of the LPN, it does not mean that an LPN can never supervise an RN.
Say there are 3 nurses, an experienced RN, she is the charge nurse, an experienced LPN, she is assigned her pt load and an inexperienced RN also with her assigned pt load.
The charge nurse is very busy with new orders, a new admission she is going to "take," or any other thing that keeps her busy and the new RN needs to do trach care and change the tube, she's never done it before.
What would be the best action?
The LPN should "attend" or suprvise the new RN to ensure it is done correctly and safely as she is performing this skill that she is unfamiliar with but the LPN has been doing for years That would be supervising, yet it is not against the scope of practice for any of us. It would, IMHO, be against the scope of the RN to perform this procedure without an experienced nurse present and if an experienced LPN is the only one available, well, the LPN is going to supervise the RN.
I don't know what brought about your post but you really need to calm down. Try not to read so much into things, you are going to wear yourself out. Supervise is a relative term, there are things the LPN can not do that the RN can but for the vast majority of nursing responsiblities our scopes of practice are much the same.

Hmm, I didn't mean to sound all worked up over anything, I just wrote a post describing what my job is like. The only thing wearing me out is trying to provide adequate care for 33 residents. LTC is a tough, but I find many aspects of my job rewarding.

pickledpepperRN · Jul 24, 2004

The Title 22 code cited is for acute care inpatient facilities.

Long term care has very different regulations.

Often an LVN is the only licensed nurse at night and on the weekends.

The main problems that drove me away from LTC were short staffing, lack of supplies, and inability to contact the patients doctor. That is thankfully not the situation at all facilities.

I admire the nursing staff in long term care (SNF, nursing home).

We really need to work on our priorities so the staff is supported in providing a good quality of life to the residents.

lvn4years · Apr 4, 2009

I am an LVN in CA and I supervise 4 RN's, 3 LVN's, 2 MSW's (Master Social Worker), 6 SWA'S(Bachelor level SW's assistants) and 23 CNA's. I am kind of tired of this whole LNV under RN debate. I have alot of respect for an RN but it does'nt mean that just cause some one is an RN they know everything. Supervising comes with experience and knowledge of your certain area. Supervising is knowing and understanding Title 22 regulations (as they pertain to your area), HIPPA, Department of Health Services, Department Of Aging and any other governing body that governs and regulates what ever institution you serve. I have dealt with all of these governing bodies when we go through our state audits and I know that not just anyone can handle that. So to all of these nurses that have it wrong, supervising is not only about overseeing a nurses skills. Its ensuring that a facility is abiding to atleast the minimum requirements that your governing bodies are requiring.

achot chavi · Apr 5, 2009

I dont think this is an issue of who knows more and who is more talented however, this is an issue of setting boundaries of responsibilities and just as with every other field- nurses are limited to their licenses.

I too have a problem with LPN or LVN's supervising RN's and SW's (I don't see how or why any LPN would want to supervise someone with a higher degree or a degree in another field completely....)

I wouldn't want to supervise someone with a doctorate in nursing etc.

HOWEVER, there is a supervising position of managerial and clerical responsibilities that has nothing to do with clinical and that can be done by an appropriate LPN.

I understand from a financial standpoint , the administrator gets to save a bundle by hiring an LPN over an RN, and I am sure that many LPN's with enough life experience can do the job, but that doesn't replace the license to do it,

The bottom line is to each their own. No reason to get hot under the collar over it,. If you are asked to be supervised clinically by an LPN and object, then you are free to go find another job!

Personally, I would not take a job that is supervised clinicallyby an LPN (my choice)

but if any RN chooses to, that is their business.

I would like to see peace between us all as we have greater battles to fight and there is more that we have in common than not.