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Girl Brain Dead after Tonsillectomy

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EaglesWings21 is a ASN, RN and specializes in Medical Surgical.

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Esme12 is a ASN, BSN, RN and specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

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The ethical question I find in the existance of those situations as applied to this case is why every neurologist worth their doctorate has not risen up in disgust and anger and clearly laid out why brain dead is brain dead, what the difference between PVS and true brain death is, and then laid into the media for prolonging this macabre charade and the inability to distinguish between the two. Those situations are completely different from McMath and shouldn't be compared. Want to throw Schiavo in there too, even though it has already been shown in numerous instances how she was considered to be in PVS instead of being declared brain dead?

As an aside, I wouldn't quote from comments on some website as some kind of proof that Jahi is really alive (or not really dead). That is a group of people who believe vitamins dumped into her IV line and a million likes on Facebook will help Jahi get up and do the two-step. It'd be a lot easier for me, at least, to give your notion of Jahi not being really dead if you could come up with credible, peer-reviewed instances of a six-times evaluated and pronounced brain-dead person coming back to life.

The diagnostic tools did exactly as they were intended in this case. Curses to all those greedy organ-stealing doctors always trying to kill off the patients early so they can...what? Profit? Make some other family deliriously happy? I'm unsure of the organ-stealing-doctor rewards. Does it look like:

1) Declare not-dead person brain dead and terrorize family

2) Take organs by deception

3) ...

4) Profit somehow? :sneaky:

No...any organ procurement team I have encountered have the utmost professionalism and respect. In most states the pronouncement of brain death cannot be done by the team, waiting list nora transplant physician. There have been many physicians who have risen up.... but they are NOT news worthy and therefore have no real voice There are many medical sites including medscape where intelligent conversations have occurred.

Everyone wants everyone to live. Unfortunately this isn't always possible. The families who are wanting their loved one to live through transplant are just as vested in their loved ones survival as Jahi's family is in her "survival". My concerns about Jahi's survival is at what cost...emotionally not financially. At what point is Jahi's beating heart a "triumph"...when there is no quality left. But that is a personal feeling. I feel there are many things worse than death and sometimes we are kinder to our animals when we love them enough to let them go.

IF and that is a big IF...there has been some revocery and her hypothalmus is functioning for what ever reason....the body is an amazing creation...and lets say that her foot moved on purpose to stimuli instead of reflex...she will not "recover". She has suffered irreversible damage to a Marjory of her brain..she won't laugh, she won't run, she won't play...she will lie there is this suspended place not because she wants to stay but because others want her to stay....for what ever the reason. But is the for Jahi's benefit or for the living's benefit. I make you think. Are my needs more important than Jahi's?

I have seen negative Cerebral blood flow studies and they are profound. Blood stops at the jaw line. Jahi was not "harmed" by not being fed for no feeding will heal this profund damage. But it can prevent the inevitable.

If this is the time the family needs to find peace....then I pray may they find peace.

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Esme12 is a ASN, BSN, RN and specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

5 Followers; 4 Articles; 20,908 Posts; 147,600 Profile Views

There are so many different perspectives of this case. Sometimes I find myself being overwhelmed with emotion leading to my wanting to get on the hope boat and ride it out for Nailah and her baby girl Jahi. Of course, my intellectual part knows that Jahi is probably gone forever. If I vacillate on this, I can surely imagine what her poor mom must be hoping through. I really wish she could have her "miracle". If that could happen many would have to pull their feet out of their mouths. This whole thing just sucks. Totally.
We are all overwhelmed with emotion. You can tell that in the posts and the heated discussion that have occurred and the outrage that people have poured on to these pages. It comes from raw emotion.

My clinical mind is completely aware of the ultimate outcome for Jahi....my heart prays for her soul. The Mom in me prays for this grief stricken mother and that crazy MD who keeps claiming Jahi is alive my he find peace in his heart...and a the pearly gates when he is asked...who made you God? For without mans interference with machines Jahi would be at peace. A beating heart is not "life" as we understand it...it's an automated response much like a ticking clock no more alive no less.

If Jahi awakens I will fall on my knees in praise and call the Vatican myself for an examination for a miracle as that is surely the presence of the hand of God.

Yes, Yemayah...this really does just suck. Being a nurse is, by far, the hardest thing I have ever done.

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Ruas61 has 38 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in MDS/ UR.

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They invited discussion and all that goes with it when they took the cause public and asked for donations.

Positive, negative or neutral- the opinions are there.

You can't take back some things.

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LadyFree28 has 10 years experience as a BSN, RN and specializes in Pediatrics, Rehab, Trauma.

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Once anyone has seen a negative cerebral blood flow exam for the first time...it changes your life. :blink:

I just had to get that out...

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Once anyone has seen a negative cerebral blood flow exam for the first time...it changes your life. :blink:

I just had to get that out...

I just Googled to better understand your comment. I think I have a clearer picture now. I can only imagine the impact of those images in real time.

HowStuffWorks "How Brain Death Works" (scroll down to the two images of cerebral blood flow studies). "A negative cerebral flow study is indisputable evidence of a dead brain."

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That was my thought as well. I said my words out loud while sitting on my hands.

I'll remember that next time haha!!

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No...any organ procurement team I have encountered have the utmost professionalism and respect. In most states the pronouncement of brain death cannot be done by the team, waiting list nora transplant physician. There have been many physicians who have risen up.... but they are NOT news worthy and therefore have no real voice There are many medical sites including medscape where intelligent conversations have occurred.

Everyone wants everyone to live. Unfortunately this isn't always possible. The families who are wanting their loved one to live through transplant are just as vested in their loved ones survival as Jahi's family is in her "survival". My concerns about Jahi's survival is at what cost...emotionally not financially. At what point is Jahi's beating heart a "triumph"...when there is no quality left. But that is a personal feeling. I feel there are many things worse than death and sometimes we are kinder to our animals when we love them enough to let them go.

IF and that is a big IF...there has been some revocery and her hypothalmus is functioning for what ever reason....the body is an amazing creation...and lets say that her foot moved on purpose to stimuli instead of reflex...she will not "recover". She has suffered irreversible damage to a Marjory of her brain..she won't laugh, she won't run, she won't play...she will lie there is this suspended place not because she wants to stay but because others want her to stay....for what ever the reason. But is the for Jahi's benefit or for the living's benefit. I make you think. Are my needs more important than Jahi's?

I have seen negative Cerebral blood flow studies and they are profound. Blood stops at the jaw line. Jahi was not "harmed" by not being fed for no feeding will heal this profund damage. But it can prevent the inevitable.

If this is the time the family needs to find peace....then I pray may they find peace.

Thanks for your kind patience with me. I may not be in med field and I know this for nurses but I feel obsessed with this case. Probably because I'm a mom. I don't understand some of the hostility toward me (or my post) but I accept that everyone is compassionate about their views. Thanks, again. Your posts are very helpful.

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I just Googled to better understand your comment. I think I have a clearer picture now. I can only imagine the impact of those images in real time.

HowStuffWorks "How Brain Death Works" (scroll down to the two images of cerebral blood flow studies). "A negative cerebral flow study is indisputable evidence of a dead brain."

Wow. Very helpful. Thank you.

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I hope the family can find the strength to let her go. I totally get that they are keeping her here for THEMSELVES and not considering what she would want. Everyday that I check, I hope to hear some good news. This waiting with bated breath is so hard. I cannot imagine what is going on with Jahi, her family or her caregivers.

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Esme12 is a ASN, BSN, RN and specializes in Critical Care, ED, Cath lab, CTPAC,Trauma.

5 Followers; 4 Articles; 20,908 Posts; 147,600 Profile Views

Thanks for your kind patience with me. I may not be in med field and I know this for nurses but I feel obsessed with this case. Probably because I'm a mom. I don't understand some of the hostility toward me (or my post) but I accept that everyone is compassionate about their views. Thanks, again. Your posts are very helpful.
Thank you...Jan has also shared some valuable information.

It's tough. Nurses think differently and we see some horrible suffering. While I believe that Jahi isn't "suffering" in the truest form of suffering....her family is....hopeful and waiting, terrified and you can't go to the place of the unthinkable...your child is gone. He siblings thinking....Jahi looks asleep...what if I never wake up? It's just unthinkable. Day after Day...I know many think of what is she wakes up? That with prayer God will do the right thing! But what of she doesn't wake up? Is God wrong? or think that Jahi is undeserving? I don't believe that Iknow there is a "plan" and I never see myself as one who can tell God what the plan should be.

When things bother nurses we find refuge in the medical facts....for if we emotionally went to the place...we are of no help to anyone. It is so clear to us. We sometimes for get that it really isn't that clear. This isn't about race, or organ donation, benefiting from her death...its a sad sad story about real people who have had the unthinkable happen....the loss of a child. It really isn't the post it's the idea of this family waiting and waiting...and for what? It's just so terrible...so we vent. Until we bleed sometimes....for the medical facts are really clear....to us.

I HAVE to have faith personally....for if I truly controlled things children would never die. Not from cancer, from child abuse and neglect, and not from horrible complications from a complicated operation.

I genuinely believe that everything was done appropriately. That this is one of those horrible stories that no one will ever forget. Many of us are angry at how the family has been taken advantage of (even while they were being helped) by those with less scruples to promote their own agenda and to capitalize on a few minutes of fame with this families tragic story.

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bakerbakerRN has 22 years experience and specializes in OR.

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Thanks for your kind patience with me. I may not be in med field and I know this for nurses but I feel obsessed with this case. Probably because I'm a mom. I don't understand some of the hostility toward me (or my post) but I accept that everyone is compassionate about their views. Thanks, again. Your posts are very helpful.

This may interest you, Yemayah. I was one of six students in the career mobility program for LPN/AD to BSN in school. We were in a "perspectives on disabilities" class with first year nursing students who did not have any nursing experience. The class was asked to divide with those who favored assisted suicide or would show some "pros" for it and the rest against it. The 6 nurses and I were the only ones out of the class that had "pros" for it and many of the new students were appalled that we would even consider it.

I guess it's because we had enough experience with patients who were suffering and accepted that someone would want a dignified death rather than continue to suffer. Luckily, Jahi is not suffering, but the rest of the family is. As a nurse, I HATE to see anyone suffer and I believe that this family continues to suffer because of their own fault for not letting her go in December.

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This may interest you, Yemayah. I was one of six students in the career mobility program for LPN/AD to BSN in school. We were in a "perspectives on disabilities" class with first year nursing students who did not have any nursing experience. The class was asked to divide with those who favored assisted suicide or would show some "pros" for it and the rest against it. The 6 nurses and I were the only ones out of the class that had "pros" for it and many of the new students were appalled that we would even consider it.

I guess it's because we had enough experience with patients who were suffering and accepted that someone would want a dignified death rather than continue to suffer. Luckily, Jahi is not suffering, but the rest of the family is. As a nurse, I HATE to see anyone suffer and I believe that this family continues to suffer because of their own fault for not letting her go in December.

Very good point. I certainly understand the euthanasia/assisted suicide folks more now. However that hasn't changed my mind about legalizing it.

I'm a hospice nurse and we are able to help people die without pain and in a peaceful manner.

The hard part of all this is people don't make their wishes known - that's where we need to focus. More education about Advanced Directives and about hospice. I still come across people who are afraid of hospice, thinking it means something it doesn't.

The lack of knowledge, even in healthcare, is scary. I've mentioned this book before but thought I'd link it again for newbies. These nurses were reported by a CNA (who was a friend) for murdering a patient.

No Good Deed: A Story of Medicine, Murder Accusations, and the Debate over How We Die: Lewis Mitchell, M.D. Cohen: 9780061721779: Amazon.com: Books

Accomplished physician and researcher Dr. Lewis Cohen writes the untold story of two Massachusetts nurses, their struggles with end of life care, and how they were accused of murdering a patient. Captivating and powerful, No Good Deed explores what happens when decisions about end of life issues and the purpose of modern medicine move from the hospital to the courtroom to the church.

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