Mandatory Vaccine Waiver in Nursing School/Clinicals

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Hey guys, I have a question for anyone else who is a fellow "non-vaccinator" or against mandatory vaccination. What did you do for nursing school, particularly clinical locations immunization requirements? After a lot of research, I've found that while many nurses can sign immunization waivers that are offered by some hospitals, etc., I haven't heard of a nursing student who has successfully avoided vaccination requirements associated with nursing school and clinical facilities.

I am well aware that vaccination is a very controversial subject in the medical field and many feel strongly on both sides of the issue. My intention is not to debate or discuss the merits of vaccinations, but to hear from other nurses and nursing students who challenged the vaccine requirements and how you went about it.

I look forward to hearing from you!

Any lab corp that does the ppd and drug screens does the qft also, if you get titers drawn too you may not have to get as many waivers. Often the shots you had as a kid are still working.

To be clear I am pro vaccine, and I would really reconsider this career if you aren't immune. My first year out of school there was a nation wide pertussis outbreak, I would have patients admitted for broken legs who also had whooping cough, I've had family members in the cardiac unit give me the flu, and renal patients come back 2 days later positive for measles. Without immunity you and your family are at risk. There is no such thing as a "clean" unit because visitors will lie about symptoms desperate to visit sick loved ones.

You are going to get sick no matter what you do just from spending so much time in the hospital, but you are putting yourself at a bigger risk of diseases we can't do much about (and worce transmitting them to others.)

And as I am sure you've noticed from this thread, most healthcare providers have little sympathy for anyone not wanting vaccination when it isn't medically merritted. Maybe in the general population you can use the risk/benefit argument but not when you are going into a field where you don't know someone is contagious until after you've spent 12 hours in the same room with them. I don't want to be preachy because i see you are getting lots of smart ass responses that aren't at all helpful. I just want you to REALLY think about it.

Still start with having your titers drawn, you may be surprised, and I'm pretty sure your insurance will cover it under your yearly preventative check up.

Hope this helps and good luck in school... Wash your hands a lot!

1 Votes
Horseshoe said:
Anti-vaxxers are not a protected class in terms of employment or education. .

Think about it this way, a hospital can't refuse to hire you because you are an Orthodox Jew, they can refuse to hire you if you refuse to work Saturdays if that is required of your position. An employer cannot fire his secretary because she is a woman, he can fire her if his jealous wife makes him believe working with her puts his marriage at jeopardy (this was an actual case the employer won). If you are in a "Right to Work State" like TX they can use pretty much any excuse to refuse to hire or to fire you as long as the paperwork doesn't actually say "sex, religion, or race"

They can say the liability of horizontal transmission of disease in the hospital due to you being unvaccinated is grounds not to permit you clinical hours or a job.

1 Votes
Specializes in NICU, ICU, PICU, Academia.
Wuzzie said:
What major religion bans vaccinations? I can tell you what the major hospital systems I've worked in say about this. "We can't force you to get a vaccination but it is a requirement of employment" they are not bound by law to hire you and if you are in an employment at will state waiting to drop this bomb until after you're hired won't work either.

THIS^^^^^^^

firecracker_1 said:
Okay, thanks!

Out of curiosity, what is the general position of the hospitals regarding religious beliefs that are protected by law and their mandatory exemptions?

Regarding nursing students, the general position of hospitals is that they can refuse to take any student for any reason they choose. They agree to host nursing programs for clinicals out of the "goodness of their hearts," basically, as a public service of sorts, and, in most communities, there are too many nursing programs and not enough healthcare facilities, and a lot of competition for clinical sites. Hospitals can afford to be as picky as they like and the schools have to accommodate them or do without a clinical site, and, in my experience as a clinical instructor arranging clinicals, hospitals explicitly reserve the right to refuse any student for any reason they like.

And, although it's already been asked, exactly what "religious beliefs that are protected by law" are you referring to in regard to vaccinations?

1 Votes

Your options are: get vaccinated or don't go to nursing school. (and potentially contract a life-threatening illness that is totally preventable, but that's a topic for another thread since you don't want to debate this "controversial but not really" issue)

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I'm currently in nursing school, and I know that while we were given the option to "waive vaccinations" through the school, none of the clinical sites my school works with will accept vaccination waivers. No clinicals, no nursing school. One single site would allow for students who medically were unable to receive the flu vaccine, but they would be required to wear a mask at all times. All clinical sites require the rest of the standard vaccines.

1 Votes
Specializes in Clinical Research, Outpt Women's Health.

You will not have any clinical sites accept you without the vaccinations. Your choice. No way to be a nurse without clinical. Basically, you are a guest and they will easily reject you if you do not play by their rules.

1 Votes
Wuzzie said:
What major religion bans vaccinations? I can tell you what the major hospital systems I've worked in say about this. "We can't force you to get a vaccination but it is a requirement of employment" they are not bound by law to hire you and if you are in an employment at will state waiting to drop this bomb until after you're hired won't work either.

According to the research that I have done, as well as the hospitals and multiple lawyers I have spoken to, the religious belief exemption is not affected (or founded) legally by the specific religion upon which the belief is founded; it is based on whether or the not the belief is "sincerely held" by the individual seeking said exemption, which must be collaborated through testimony given under penalty of perjury, as well as the agreement of testimony from persons who know you. Thus, it doesn't matter if the religion is "major," mainstream, or otherwise, nor does the label of the religion affect its legal standing.

Horseshoe said:
Your religious beliefs remain protected: no one will hold you down and stab a needle into your body. That doesn't mean that a hospital must hire you or that a clinical facility must allow a student to roam their halls and expose their patients. Anti-vaxxers are not a protected class in terms of employment or education. Similarly, hospitals or schools are not required to hire/admit people with criminal records, even after they have paid their debts to society; neither are they required to admit/hire people who test positive for certain substances that may nevertheless be legal. Many hospitals refuse to hire smokers, even though nicotine is not an illegal substance. Protected classes are actually not that numerous.

There are several different legal ramifications that come into play, but for the sake of not going into lengthy ramblings, I will just point to one, the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employer discrimination based on race, religion, color, sex, or national origin. Thus, in healthcare work environments, if you are not hired because of your legal declination of immunizations for religious beliefs, that is a direct violation of said Act and discriminatory. As for the other scenarios you mentioned such as people with criminal records, testing positive for legal substances, or smoking is not related at all to religious beliefs, but an entirely different matter altogether, as one is protected by federal law, and the other is the rightful prerogative of employers.

GaryRay said:
Any lab corp that does the ppd and drug screens does the qft also, if you get titers drawn too you may not have to get as many waivers. Often the shots you had as a kid are still working.

To be clear I am pro vaccine, and I would really reconsider this career if you aren't immune. My first year out of school there was a nation wide pertussis outbreak, I would have patients admitted for broken legs who also had whooping cough, I've had family members in the cardiac unit give me the flu, and renal patients come back 2 days later positive for measles. Without immunity you and your family are at risk. There is no such thing as a "clean" unit because visitors will lie about symptoms desperate to visit sick loved ones.

Right, I absolutely agree with you that in the nursing profession,the threat of disease is a permanent variable in the equation.

GaryRay said:
And as I am sure you've noticed from this thread, most healthcare providers have little sympathy for anyone not wanting vaccination when it isn't medically merited. I don't want to be preachy because I see you are getting lots of smart *** responses that aren't at all helpful. I just want you to REALLY think about it.

Haha, I've got tough skin so I don't mind it :D I find sarcasm very funny so I've laughed at quite a few responses because they were genuinely funny LOL :D But I really appreciate you being open to the topic even though you see it differently and having a productive and interactive discussion!

GaryRay said:
Think about it this way, a hospital can't refuse to hire you because you are an Orthodox Jew, they can refuse to hire you if you refuse to work Saturdays if that is required of your position. An employer cannot fire his secretary because she is a woman, he can fire her if his jealous wife makes him believe working with her puts his marriage at jeopardy (this was an actual case the employer won). If you are in a "Right to Work State" like TX they can use pretty much any excuse to refuse to hire or to fire you as long as the paperwork doesn't actually say "sex, religion, or race"

I agree with you that in the examples you used, the employer has the right to not hire (or fire) someone. However, when it comes to religious beliefs, it is substantially different from a legal perspective. I briefly mentioned it earlier, so I won't go into detail, but according to legal counsel, it violates the civil rights act and the EOCC (Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) supports this stance on legal grounds as well.

FuturePsychNP21 said:
Your options are: get vaccinated or don't go to nursing school. (and potentially contract a life-threatening illness that is totally preventable, but that's a topic for another thread since you don't want to debate this "controversial but not really" issue)

I might start another thread to have a discussion on the politics of vaccines, because I'd be interested in hearing the research that others have done and discussing both sides.

1 Votes
firecracker_1 said:
There are several different legal ramifications that come into play, but for the sake of not going into lengthy ramblings, I will just point to one, the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employer discrimination based on race, religion, color, sex, or national origin. Thus, in healthcare work environments, if you are not hired because of your legal declination of immunizations for religious beliefs, that is a direct violation of said Act and discriminatory.

But we're not talking about employment here; we're talking about school. Student nurses doing clinical in hospitals are in no way "employed" by the hospital, nor are they "employed" by the school.

firecracker_1 said:
I might start another thread to have a discussion on the politics of vaccines, because I'd be interested in hearing the research that others have done and discussing both sides.

Don't bother -- there are a kazillion existing threads here on the topic. A simple click of the "search" button will get you a lifetime of reading and "discussion." Every fall, when it's flu shot time again, the anti-vaxxers come out in force and make the same sorry arguments.

2 Votes
firecracker_1 said:

There are several different legal ramifications that come into play, but for the sake of not going into lengthy ramblings, I will just point to one, the Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which prohibits employer discrimination based on race, religion, color, sex, or national origin. Thus, in healthcare work environments, if you are not hired because of your legal declination of immunizations for religious beliefs, that is a direct violation of said Act and discriminatory.

If you think a given facility can't easily come up with a legal reason to refuse to hire/fire an employee in lieu of outright stating that they are doing so because of an employee's religion, you are really naive. In many states, they need no "reason," they can simply let you go without explanation. Good luck proving it's because you refuse vaccines because of "sincerely held" religious beliefs.

As to nursing school, this doesn't even remotely come into play. Your only hope is that the clinical facilities comply. There is no legal mandate that they must do so.

1 Votes
firecracker_1 said:

I might start another thread to have a discussion on the politics of vaccines, because I'd be interested in hearing the research that others have done and discussing both sides.

I find your statement above to be highly unlikely in view of the fact that ACTUAL research (not searching the web and reading blogs) has already been conducted on vaccines for MANY decades, by scientists all over the world, and has been easily accessible to you. The findings are clear: vaccines have saved millions of lives which were once lost to infectious disease. The number of vaccine injuries pales in comparison. The societal risks/benefits ratios are very clear if one actually studies real "research." The one exception might be the flu vaccine, which, depending on the year, from time to time fails to be very effective, though its safety is well established.

1 Votes
elkpark said:
But we're not talking about employment here; we're talking about school. Student nurses doing clinical in hospitals are in no way "employed" by the hospital, nor are they "employed" by the school.

That is why I stated that there are multiple legal ramifications involved; and according to legal counsel, hospital personnel, and nursing school advisors, the situation between clinical facilities and nursing students falls under the same category for several reasons.

elkpark said:
Don't bother -- there are a kazillion existing threads here on the topic. A simple click of the "search" button will get you a lifetime of reading and "discussion." Every fall, when it's flu shot time again, the anti-vaxxers come out in force and make the same sorry arguments.

I have read all the previous threads on anti-vaxxers and their position, and respectfully, not a lot of facts were discussed. In my experience, vaccine discussions are generally filled with feelings and unsubstantiated arguments from people who have not put in the time or the effort to actually research the topic objectively with an open mind. While I believe everyone has a right to their opinion and personal beliefs, I must point out that opinions and feelings are not facts, nor do they substitute for through research. The fact that many in the nursing community are not open to discuss and debate vaccines simply because the majority believes a certain way does not make it correct or factually based.

That being said, I would still like to start a thread to discuss and debate the subject with others who are willing to engage in a interactive and productive debate and discussion where evidence, research, and facts are objectively evaluated. I would hope that such a discussion would not be laborious or upsetting to anyone, but instead a stimulating and mature debate that requires those participating to think for themselves and look at all facts and evidence with an open mind.

When I have asked doctors, nurses, and others in the field of medicine for advice for anyone interested in a career in the medical field, I have been told countless times the importance of keeping an open mind. The quote of "You will never grow as a person if you only surround yourself with people who believe exactly like you and refuse to listen objectively to different views and beliefs. No one ever grows inside an echo box," sums up my point and is well said.

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